My AI experiment on the forum

[Findingnemo]

Your story doesn't make sense to me because an admin or a mod doesn't identify the plagiarism or AI-generated content on their own or using any tools, it's identified by the community and reported via the report to mod button or in the dedicated threads.

You are lucky that you got away with only a post deletion.

But what you made it clear that you cheated in the campaign to create posts that were paid using an AI tool, IMO the manager can tag you for that if he feels that comes under cheating.

[uchegod-21]

If you were not caught, when where you planning to tell the community about your experiment?

[seoincorporation]

My prompt was really basic and that's why i got detected by the users (I was expecting to get busted by the mods or admins), but i can make a humanized prompt that avoids the AI detection,

Really? Can you prove that? I say this because if you can do it yourself I don't think it will take long for the technology to be available to everyone.

Yes, it can be done, there are even tools to humanize ai generated content as you can see in the next image

Are we really allowed to test AI on the forum without been penalized?
Wow this is new

The OP -was- penalized: their posts were deleted.
Now if the OP continues to use fully AI generated replies or new topics, that is when sterner response by the mods will happen. It also needs to be pointed out (again) that the Forum does very little automatic scanning of posts (mainly looking for things like gift card scams) - most of the time it is us Forum users who flag and report posts to the mods who then review them and act accordingly.

That's right, i feel like the forum needs to implement some some tools, we could take the post by RSS and send them to a filter for AI verification and scams detection.

This is a really complex topic guys, and from my point of view is hard to understand what's right and what's wrong about AI. And I'm sure that today we have a lot of undetected AI users.

That much is true.

Good to know that you are conscious that we have a current problem with AI.

understand that this is a fight that we can't win.

There is no "we" if you join the spammers.

I'm creating conscious of the problem and trying to find a way where the community can work together to fix this AI problem for the forum, because it will grow, i know the way i did it wasn't the right way but you can be I haven't move to the dark side, as i told before i will not use AI again on the forum, you can be sure of that.

It's just one neutral, I wouldn't look too much into it. All is done and dusted anyway.

My spam detection prototype for my search engine is tripping over AI-generated posts like crazy, though.

I really like this initiative, we need more users like you NotATether, users who care about bringing solutions.

So, how can we really fight against AI? We could use an automatic process where we verify each new post and the post history of the user and make an AI score, even the user profile could have that score to let us know which users are bots and which are 100% humas.

1. Who wants to build such automated process/system?
2. Who will pay for operation cost of such automated process/system?

1.- Someone who have the knowledge and the time to do it.
2.- The operational cost is really low, n8n is free if we run it in our server, and chatGPT offers 1000 tokens for $0.15

Bruh what are you trying to do here? Trying to get sympathy for those who are using AI to create replies and your logic is that one day AI will do all this?

I'm trying to show to the community where we are about AI, we should take it serious because this thing is going fast, and it will become a real problem for the future, we must be ready for that or AI will kill the forum.

I will also reinstate my neutral now as I think your experiment theory is bullshit. 

I totally understand it, and i will not allegate against that, sorry for the bad time i give to you and to the community.

It's not nice to see an old member resorting to these methods, and only reacting when he gets tagged and his posts are deleted. There may be some truth to his explanation for why he did it, but the fact that he didn't inform anyone in advance, and that he participated in the sig campaign at that time definitely doesn't work in his favor.

Hey Lucius, i should inform, you are right with that, but the result wouldn't be the same. I had to try it this way to understand where we are against AI.

For your question of if we can win this AI war.
I do not think we can win it. But I am sure something will have to happen in the nearest future. AI will be so abundant in the forum to the extent that human written conversations will be scarce. By this time, campaign managers will have to scan the whole profile of any user in order to be able to hire anyone whose profile is 95 to 100% human written.

You got the point KingsDen, but the nearest future is closer than what we all think.

congratulations on ruining any respect or integrity you may of had on this forum

For me this forum isn't about respect or integrity, is about knowledge, i have learned a lot from the people on this forum and always shared my knowledge.

Your story doesn't make sense to me because an admin or a mod doesn't identify the plagiarism or AI-generated content on their own or using any tools, it's identified by the community and reported via the report to mod button or in the dedicated threads.

And you think that's right? is the users job to patrol the forum for AI, Scams and Spammers? That's a cool way to help the community, but we could implement tools for that. That could be a machine job.

If you were not caught, when where you planning to tell the community about your experiment?

There was no way that i didn't get caught, i was expecting to get caught by the forum staff.

------------------------------------------

So, i try to answer some of your questions, sorry that i didn't before but was busy as hell.

I will not complain about the neutral feedback, i deserve them, i know i wake up the users awareness about AI and i'm happy with that result because we are on a evolution process where things are getting atomatized, you all will find bots everywhere and very soon, WhatsApp, telegram, socialnetworks, forums... all will get filled with bots, is something that we can't fight against.

If you can't beat the enemy, join him. Because the only way to do something about AI is by understanding it and knowing how it works, and what its scope is. If the forum staff want's some help to implement AI bots for post review i'm open to help.

So, we all have learned a lesson from this, if you guys are ready to move on let's do it.

[nutildah]

Good to know that you are conscious that we have a current problem with AI.

Bro I don't know how you could have possibly missed this thread, unless you literally haven't visited the Reputation section in 2 years. I also had a pretty lengthy thread about the topic in Meta, which was followed by countless threads addressing AI use on the forum.

I'm creating conscious of the problem and trying to find a way where the community can work together to fix this AI problem for the forum, because it will grow, i know the way i did it wasn't the right way but you can be I haven't move to the dark side, as i told before i will not use AI again on the forum, you can be sure of that.

Trust me, we're plenty conscious of it, and its been debated in a dozen different ways. Although as AI evolves I'm sure more debate of it will be warranted.

As for whether or not "the war against AI" can be "won," who really cares. We should all be on the same page of trying to keep the forum as human as possible. This is first and foremost a discussion forum, meant for humans to discuss topics with one another. You have bot sanctuaries like Twitter and Facebook at your disposal if you want to converse with bots.

So far LLM output has added very little value to the forum. It is best reserved for entertainment & stuff like this:

I’ve never watched cartoon or animal porn, to be honest, and I still don’t see any pornish characteristics in the image. You made me doubt my sanity, so I had to ask AI

No, the logo shown in the image is **not sexualized** by any reasonable standard. It features a cartoon fox riding a bicycle with the text “**FOXPUP'S MERIT CYCLING CLUB**.” The fox and bicycle are illustrated in a simple, playful, and non-provocative style. There's nothing in the imagery, text, or context that suggests sexualization.

The design appears to be intended for fun and community identity, likely for a group or initiative on the Bitcointalk forum centered around the sharing or “cycling” of merit points.

BTW, that is the proper way to use AI output on the forum, giving credit where its due instead of trying to pretend its your own words.

[Free Market Capitalist]

Yes, it can be done, there are even tools to humanize ai generated content as you can see in the next image

They don't work, or at least they didn't. Some time ago, when I saw these humanizers advertised, I tried a couple of them and they were detected. Also, the fact that you got caught makes me think they don't work as well as you say. I'm not going to bother to see if they have improved but it seems to me that this is going to be like plagiarism with the internet: when it emerged it made plagiarism easier, but anti-plagiarism tools that detect it also emerged.

I don't quite buy your story because of several things that have been mentioned: you have done the alleged experiment with your main account, with the one you charge for signature campaign, and without telling anyone, neither the mods, nor your campaign manager or anything else. You could even have signed a message with a known bitcoin address on the forum saying that this was an experiment before you started.

Now, I don't agree with someone like you who has been on the forum for 11 years, using AI for 6 days and being called an AI spammer.

[ABCbits]

So, how can we really fight against AI? We could use an automatic process where we verify each new post and the post history of the user and make an AI score, even the user profile could have that score to let us know which users are bots and which are 100% humas.

1. Who wants to build such automated process/system?
2. Who will pay for operation cost of such automated process/system?

1.- Someone who have the knowledge and the time to do it.
2.- The operational cost is really low, n8n is free if we run it in our server, and chatGPT offers 1000 tokens for $0.15

1. I mean individual or group who will do it. You? Admin? Someone else?
2. How about cost of the server used to run this n8n software/tool? As for cost of chatGPT, it's worth to mention that https://beta.ninjastic.space/ says there are about 106 thousand post created in last month. I don't know average word or token of all created posts, but i don't expect to be cheap.

[ChiBitCTy]

“ If the new tech isn’t true artificial intelligence, then what is it? In my view, the most accurate way to understand what we are building today is as an innovative form of social collaboration.

A program like OpenAI’s GPT-4, which can write sentences to order, is something like a version of Wikipedia that includes much more data, mashed together using statistics. Programs that create images to order are something like a version of online image search, but with a system for combining the pictures. In both cases, it’s people who have written the text and furnished the images. The new programs mash up work done by human minds. What’s innovative is that the mashup process has become guided and constrained, so that the results are usable and often striking. This is a significant achievement and worth celebrating—but it can be thought of as illuminating previously hidden concordances between human creations, rather than as the invention of a new mind”.
- https://www.newyorker.com/science/annals-of-artificial-intelligence/there-is-no-ai

I can’t even go shopping for a fn golf putter ( https://rb.gy/j9bvej ) before I see easily a top 3 fallacy/ marketing scheme/scam of our lifetimes. We aren’t even at Quantum yet lol.

Seoincorp- take your meds

[memehunter]

Now, I don't agree with someone like you who has been on the forum for 11 years, using AI for 6 days and being called an AI spammer.

You are again taking the OP's word at face value. It is not only 6 days. (especially when he continued even after being given one warning without a tag). Can OP confirm that we will not find any AI spam before the so-called experimental 6 days?
I respect his tenure here but the rules must be the same for everyone. 

[Free Market Capitalist]

You are again taking the OP's word at face value. It is not only 6 days. (especially when he continued even after being given one warning without a tag). Can OP confirm that we will not find any AI spam before the so-called experimental 6 days?
I respect his tenure here but the rules must be the same for everyone.  

Good point. I wouldn't call him that if it has been only 6 days in all his time on the forum but your feedback is probably correct because of the above mentioned: if he wanted to conduct an experiment he had many ways to do it other than sneaking around like in this case, and until he got caught, so we can't know what would have happened if he hadn't been caught.

I remember interacting with the user in the past and his posts didn't strike me as IA written. I recall him opening threads testing variants of martingale (lol) in the Gambling Section and another about casino software.

There have also been many other cases that in reputation issues have appealed to the seniority and previous reputation in the forum of the user in question. I remember the case of Lightlord, with whom the majority of the forum has no problem and even defends him for being a donator when he constantly demonstrates that leaving your money in his hands is high risk.

I take this opportunity to say that if someone wants to carry out an experiment send a PM to me, because I am interested in legitimate uses of AI in the forum, both to improve it and to catch cheaters. If it's like the OP's it won't stop him from getting his posts deleted if he gets caught but at least he'll have a prior witness that it's an experiment.

[nutildah]

Whether or not it was actually a pre-planned "experiment," I don't know, but I don't really care. I'm all for giving more established users a second chance when it comes to this kind of thing, especially if they swear they're not gonna do it again, which is why I didn't leave a tag.

I can’t even go shopping for a fn golf putter ( https://rb.gy/j9bvej ) before I see easily a top 3 fallacy/ marketing scheme/scam of our lifetimes. We aren’t even at Quantum yet lol.

An AI putter, what?? In one of the videos the guy says, "through AI we were able to develop to develop an insert that will leave you 21% closer on missed hits..." so there no actual artificial intelligence in your putt, that's a shame. I was hoping there was a camera and motion sensor on it so it could transform the surface however was necessary to ensure your putt made the ball go in the hole, lol.

[stwenhao]

if the forum detects the AI

Yes.

how far a user can go with AI abuse

As far as with every other account. On some sites, there are "bot" privileges, which can do more things, and can be used to automate some tasks. But as long as you don't have additional access rights like that, you are limited to a standard account, and you have to keep all rate limits in place.

we can build better tools for the AI detection

Some ways of detecting, if you are talking to AI, or to a real person, are too invasive to be used. For example: AIs don't swear, if they don't have to. By just checking, how polite is someone's post, it can be detected with quite high accuracy, which posts were AI generated, and which were created by real humans.

Another option is to make an AI exploit, and post a sentence, which would quickly reveal, that someone is using AI. Sometimes I accidentally triggered such things, and then the bot for example said the truth, and asked about removing his account (and then kept posting, as if nothing would happen).

But note one important thing: if you use AI too much, then AI will be also abused against you. So, be prepared for a situation, when you will ask some serious technical question, and developers will send you some AI-generated response, instead of giving you some honest answer, or saying the f-word.

If technical concepts appear, explain them in an easy way, without complex words.

If you use AI against users, then some of them will be mad, and use AI against you. Also, you just made your bot tech-illiterate, by putting that sentence in your prompt.

Personally I prefer…

Thank you for making AI detection easier! If you put some phrases like that in your prompts, then users can easily search just for that, because there is 90% chance, that AI will keep repeating it over and over again, instead of using "its own" words (everything AI says is just a mirror of some training data, by the way).

Personally I prefer not using AI too much, because then someone could ask about some passwords, or other sensitive data, and your bot will reply faster, than mods will take it down. And then, in archives like https://ninjastic.space/ everyone will see it anyway, even if the whole topic will be nuked.

To sum up: it looks like you are playing with matches, without understanding the consequences. AI won't conquer the world by replacing humans with humanoidal androids, like in Detroit game. Instead, users will rely on AI more, and more, and more, and then, human bodies will just act like slaves, addicted to using AI, and fulfilling every command of AI companies.

So, if you want to be a slave, then just blindly trust your AI. I already saw employees getting their jobs by using ChatGPT. And I can tell you, how they behave, when they are hired: they are worried about their future, they feel guilty and have a lot of doubts about their own skills, and they adjust their human behaviour to the bots they talk with.

"who keeps company with the wolf will learn to howl"

[Findingnemo]

Your story doesn't make sense to me because an admin or a mod doesn't identify the plagiarism or AI-generated content on their own or using any tools, it's identified by the community and reported via the report to mod button or in the dedicated threads.

And you think that's right? is the users job to patrol the forum for AI, Scams and Spammers? That's a cool way to help the community, but we could implement tools for that. That could be a machine job.

If you have read the forum rules, then you may know that

19. Possible (or real) scams and Trust ratings are not moderated (to prevent moderation abuse).

If you wanted to change that, then you should have come up with a thread on meta with convincing reasons why it shoul be moderated but you did something different and got paid for it, and now only tell the community after you are caught is not a good impression though.

[DYING_S0UL]

you did this and youre in a paid sig campaign?

congratulations on ruining any respect or integrity you may of had on this forum

This is just insane. I didn't read all those long paragraphs written by OP, so I thought he used an alt account to do this experiment (would have been best method imo). Just saw he got the nutural tags and your comment said, paid sig. Did he actually did this experiment with his real account where he was wearing sig?

LOL..Didn't expect a legendary member would do something like this...

[stwenhao]

I haven't move to the dark side, as i told before i will not use AI again on the forum, you can be sure of that

Good for you, because you probably can't even imagine, how much worse it could be. If you allowed some AI to have unrestricted access to your account, or in general, if you allowed posting any content, then think about jailbreaks. Think about convincing your bot to post CP, or other strictly illegal content. And if all of that was done from some clearnet IP, then guess who would be chased by authorities, when needed.

I'm trying to show to the community where we are about AI

I can tell you where we are, when it comes to some paths, which are explored from Cyber Security perspective. Many people are no longer interested in just generating some AI content. It became too easy, and there are too many tools for that. The more interesting thing to explore, is how models were trained, and what was the original, unmodified training data.

There are prompts, which can give you completely unmodified training data, just as a plaintext. The whole thing, which AI currently does, is just putting more noise on training data, and mixing it to become hard to recognize the original input. However, data recovery is possible. Many things are archived on many pages. Dots can be connected. And then, if you know, how the "AI noise" is generated, then you can remove it.

So, what happens if someone can uncover the truth? For example, it can very often turn out, that the training data is some copyrighted material. Taken without asking anyone for permission, and mixed to hide traces. However, if you can prove, that some licenses or other rights were violated, then guess who will be chased. There were examples, where people read newspapers behind paywall, by just asking AI to complete some paragraphs, taken from prefaces, which were available for free.

Which means, that you are now worried about users, who are unaware, where we are, when it comes to "AI progress". But you seem to completely ignore the fact, that your great AI can be used against you, and because you let it running, you gave it your own digital identity, and you are paid in signature campaigns, then you are the one, who can be legally accused of many things, and chased by those, who will know, how to jailbreak your AI.

we must be ready for that or AI will kill the forum

It probably won't "kill" things. It will slow everything down. There are lots of open source projects, which are now constantly crawled by many AI bots, from different IP addresses, by different companies, and people are trying to milk all possible data out of them. But guess what: many sites are putting Proof of Work protections in place.

Which means, that if you want to make browsing bitcointalk harder, if you want to see more cloudflare-like stuff, and if you want to encounter more CAPTCHAs, then go on. Use AI. Abuse it more. Then, not only you will make everyone else's experience worse, but also yours, if people will put more protections in place, and you will be left in a graveyard, filled with other AI bots, because you wouldn't know, where real humans went, when you didn't pay attention.

i was expecting to get caught by the forum staff

Maybe you didn't notice, but many discussions moved from bitcointalk to other places. It is no longer a central place for developing things. It is rather a playground, when many people experiment, and talk to each other, but there are more serious places, for more serious discussions. Maybe that playground is important, maybe it is deeply archived, and censorship-resistant, but nonetheless, it is still a playground.

Also, why some people should try to catch you, if they can ignore you, and let you taste your own medicine, by moving you into some echo chamber, when you will talk with other AI bots, thinking that you outsmarted other people, while you are just shadowbanned? This is also the way to fight with AI spam: by putting spammers together, so they can be properly isolated from the rest of the community.

Many times, things are not moderated, because people just click "ignore" button, instead of "report".

[SamReomo]

You've built good reputation on this forum and using or even testing of AI for creating posts or mimic your style wasn't a wise move. If your intention was to experiment with AI generated posts then you could create a separate thread with somewhat similar title like Experimenting with AI generated posts with Humanize AI or something similar. But, even then such an experiment with success could allow many spammers to use AI in future to create their posts and that would reduce the number of human written posts overtime.

AI can be used for some good things but using it to create posts is totally unacceptable, even if it's for the sake of testing, still it could allow negative people to use it for spamming purpose to fulfill their signature campaign posts quota. You're a reputed member of the forum with high activity and good number of merits and such an experiment could ruin your hard earned reputation. I believe that others may learn from you and may not do any type of AI generated posting even for experimental purposes.

Nutildah's thread is already part of the reputation board and there are many reputed members including Nutildah to take strict action against the members who use AI for posting. I believe next time everyone will learn from this thread and they may not even think about creating any AI generated content posts or even taking any type of help from AI when it comes to writing of posts. AI can at times give wrong information and that can ruin someone's reputation which was built during many years of activity and presence on this forum. So better to not use AI for post creation and instead do it yourself, your own personal opinion is much better than that of AI.

[mindrust]

Why haven’t you used an alt for this “experiment” ? Even if you are telling the truth, it still wasn’t a good idea. Be grateful some dt member didn’t give you a negative trust rating and if he did, nobody would question him probably.

And you know you got paid for your AI generated posts. That makes your story, well, it does not look great.

Wanna experiment by breaking some rules without hurting anyone? Use an alt. Otherwise it looks like you are trying to justify your actions now.

Or maybe you should have posted in politics etc where posts don’t get paid. I haven’t checked your post history but if you did, my apologies. (Switzerland’s rating says otherwise)

That was a dangerous experiment I hope it was worth it because campaign managers might exclude you from the future campaigns because of that neutral rating on your profile.

[Ultegra134]

If you were not caught, when where you planning to tell the community about your experiment?

Total bollocks mate. He wasn't "experimenting" with AI to conduct a social experiment, he is simply trying to come up with a "clever" excuse for his AI usage, by coming up with a fancy topic. It would be so much better if you just admitted you were in the wrong in the first place, rather than try to fool everyone else. You just hoped you would get away with it, and even if you were actually truthful, you were practically abusing your own campaign. This sounds like a pathetic attempt to hide the fact that you were using AI to make your signature campaign hassle-free. You could have used an brand new alt account to prove your point and how quick the users in the AI report thread respond.

[Churchillvv]

Can't really wrap my head around why the use of AI is so important to some guys in this forum, even more disappointing to see someone that is prefer much reputable in terms of forum categories yet still find it necessary to use AI for posting.

What exactly is there for anyone to say/write that requires the use of AI in the forum, I guess it's either one is posting to get paid or posting to something in return (whatever it could be) because basically if one is clueless in any post or thread it's pretty much easy to leave the thread without your contribution than use AI.

"Maybe even the gatekeepers might be the actual reason for the gate keeping"

[ChiBitCTy]

Whether or not it was actually a pre-planned "experiment," I don't know, but I don't really care. I'm all for giving more established users a second chance when it comes to this kind of thing, especially if they swear they're not gonna do it again, which is why I didn't leave a tag.

I can’t even go shopping for a fn golf putter ( https://rb.gy/j9bvej ) before I see easily a top 3 fallacy/ marketing scheme/scam of our lifetimes. We aren’t even at Quantum yet lol.

An AI putter, what?? In one of the videos the guy says, "through AI we were able to develop to develop an insert that will leave you 21% closer on missed hits..." so there no actual artificial intelligence in your putt, that's a shame. I was hoping there was a camera and motion sensor on it so it could transform the surface however was necessary to ensure your putt made the ball go in the hole, lol.

Can't really wrap my head around why the use of AI is so important to some guys in this forum, even more disappointing to see someone that is prefer much reputable in terms of forum categories yet still find it necessary to use AI for posting.

What exactly is there for anyone to say/write that requires the use of AI in the forum, I guess it's either one is posting to get paid or posting to something in return (whatever it could be) because basically if one is clueless in any post or thread it's pretty much easy to leave the thread without your contribution than use AI.

"Maybe even the gatekeepers might be the actual reason for the gate keeping"

Never heard of the OP and I’ve been around for a mn. Not sure reputable is appropriate here.

Okay I’m done w this thread. Theymos hilarious Cyrus and co don’t need this shit in their review “box” or whatever.

 ✌️

[LoyceV]

I'm creating conscious of the problem

Here's an analogy: When I'm concerned about litter in my neighborhood, I always dump my trash on the ground to make people conscious about the problem.
Do you not understand how stupid this sounds?