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Author Topic: J. Lopp's Post-Quantum Migration BIP  (Read 3120 times)
kTimesG
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March 31, 2026, 05:00:46 PM
 #141

Key words to that is "Estimate" and "Projected". No mention of the fact no one has yet to actually build a QC that has even a tenth of the number of qubits and gates required.

Have you read the paper? It sounds to me, that they built a sort-of invertible EC point addition circuit, which sounds crazy. They have a ZK proof of it working.

So the advancements are not simply on the hardware side (which evolves exponentially anyway if you check the timelines) but also on the algo side. Maybe pretending that we're not there yet doesn't end well if we simply count down from 1 million to zero, in bigger and bigger decrements.

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March 31, 2026, 06:12:59 PM
Merited by Pmalek (3), vapourminer (1)
 #142

Key words to that is "Estimate" and "Projected". No mention of the fact no one has yet to actually build a QC that has even a tenth of the number of qubits and gates required.

The FUD is always way over blown. If/when a QC powerful enough is a reality, stealing Bitcoin is going to be way down the list of priorities for whoever possesses the QC power.

If it’s Google or some Government body they will not decide to start stealing Bitcoin. It’d likely be used to hack other countries classified info/documents. There would be a desire to get other countries nuke codes and stuff like that.

Bitcoin is not even a 2T marketcap, it’s a tiny market. A QC breakthrough would be huge, whoever has the power will not be rushing to do anything with Bitcoin.

 

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April 01, 2026, 06:10:35 AM
Merited by LFC_Bitcoin (3), ABCbits (1)
 #143

Key words to that is "Estimate" and "Projected". No mention of the fact no one has yet to actually build a QC that has even a tenth of the number of qubits and gates required.

Edit: Fact is, no one has yet to build a physical, working, QC that can do anything more than act as very limited-scope testbeds to verify how the quantum circuits actually work and what areas need improvement. There's still a long way to go before anything resembling a fully functional QC is built that can even begin to address the problems that will be thrown at it.


OK, but what did Google currently discover that they shortened their "estimated" and "projected" Quantum Timeline? It's probably a suggestion that we as a community should also start having some awareness towards the Quantum Threat, no? Ignoring the situation, because "estimated and projected" won't make it go away.

Key words to that is "Estimate" and "Projected". No mention of the fact no one has yet to actually build a QC that has even a tenth of the number of qubits and gates required.

The FUD is always way over blown. If/when a QC powerful enough is a reality, stealing Bitcoin is going to be way down the list of priorities for whoever possesses the QC power.

If it’s Google or some Government body they will not decide to start stealing Bitcoin. It’d likely be used to hack other countries classified info/documents. There would be a desire to get other countries nuke codes and stuff like that.

Bitcoin is not even a 2T marketcap, it’s a tiny market. A QC breakthrough would be huge, whoever has the power will not be rushing to do anything with Bitcoin.


I used to believe that Bitcoin should be the least of our worries if the Quantum Threat arrives, but Satoshi's wallet could be the first testbed for early Quantum Computers.

If you're a Core Developer, would you merely allow that threat not to be mitigated?

The point is awareness, which leads to a discussion, then a solution.

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April 01, 2026, 02:08:51 PM
 #144

I used to believe that Bitcoin should be the least of our worries if the Quantum Threat arrives, but Satoshi's wallet could be the first testbed for early Quantum Computers.

If you're a Core Developer, would you merely allow that threat not to be mitigated?

The point is awareness, which leads to a discussion, then a solution.

I am happy to move my coins to Quantum Resistant addresses if/when the need is required.

I actually got a bit paranoid last year (reading about QC) and moved all the remaining coins in Legacy Addresses that I HODL from back in the day.


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April 01, 2026, 04:35:54 PM
Last edit: April 01, 2026, 06:03:05 PM by Satofan44
Merited by NotFuzzyWarm (1)
 #145

Today, Google claims it will soon be possible to break in-transit (mempool) TXs in 9 minutes.
This seems quite a suspicious number because the block time is 10 minutes, it seems to me that someone manipulated the outcome of this paper in order to tailor to a result. When extremely complex stuff ends up coincidentally on favorable numbers like this, it indicates that something is fishy even if the whole thing may be valid. I would have believed it even if they said something extremely low such as 1 minute, but this number is fraudulent. Perhaps a researcher biased or bribed in order to tip the data a little bit. Happens almost daily, even in medicine but most people here wouldn't know that.  Wink

Quote
→ q-day: My confidence in q-day by 2032 has shot up significantly. IMO there's at least a 10% chance that by 2032 a quantum computer recovers a secp256k1 ECDSA private key from an exposed public key.
https://x.com/drakefjustin/status/2038847732152996108
This is nothing compared to the in-transit claim, and for previously exposed keys we do not have a solution. They may stay as they are or get merely slowed down with the hourglass proposal or something similar.

Maybe pretending that we're not there yet doesn't end well if we simply count down from 1 million to zero, in bigger and bigger decrements.
You seem to misunderstand this space entirely. Let's all pretend that we are already there. What now? Nothing. We do not know what the right solution is, there is no assured solution yet. There are many bad solutions to this, so stop believing that people don't want to do something about this because that is not accurate -- the problem lies in what exactly should be done and how. Many things are still in their maturation process.

OK, but what did Google currently discover that they shortened their "estimated" and "projected" Quantum Timeline? It's probably a suggestion that we as a community should also start having some awareness towards the Quantum Threat, no? Ignoring the situation, because "estimated and projected" won't make it go away.
Other than educating people to not resuse addresses, "community members" should not do shit about this. When "community members" start getting intensely involved in topics that go way beyond their head, we get another misinformation shitstorm like we did with OP_RETURN. Let cryptographers do their jobs, developers will implement solutions when they are available. If randoms start getting emotionally invested in individual quantum-proof signatures or other solution methods, it will just lead to useless bickering over false claims.

Assuming that there is a good candidate, deploying a new address type with quantum safe signatures is easy. The issue with old coins, reused addresses and that will remain open. Still people forget how this world works. It is not going to be some random hacker in the world that will be able to steal money using this as he can from various shitcoins and their Defi protocols. Google is not legally able to steal any of these coins so even once they succeed it will remain merely a demonstration of what can be done by an extremely well funded and state of the art actor (not by everyone, not by random small or medium entities). What do you actually think a public company is able to steal digital property from others legally, including other legal entities from the USA?  Roll Eyes

I actually got a bit paranoid last year (reading about QC) and moved all the remaining coins in Legacy Addresses that I HODL from back in the day.
Unless you are referring to P2PK addresses (and taproot but this is less of an issue for the network as a whole as of today), this did not do anything. Only unused P2PK addresses are vulnerable. When it comes to resused addresses, all types are vulnerable. Most people have never seen a P2PK address in their wallet.



There is this terrible negative side effects from technology and social media that pushes normies and average people into getting involved in every topic that exists. Sit the fuck down, know your place and don't do anything. The illusion of knowledge is the greatest danger that exists in this context.

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April 01, 2026, 05:49:22 PM
Merited by Satofan44 (1)
 #146

Unless you are referring to P2PK addresses, this did not do anything. Only unused P2PK addresses are vulnerable. When it comes to resused addresses, all types are vulnerable. Most people have never seen a P2PK address in their wallet.

What about TapRoot? Even if it's the "new and shiny format" it is vulnerable to QC because it exposes the tweaked public key, which, if broken, makes the UTXO spendable. What I did, after seeing TR listed as quantum vulnerable at rest was to promptly transfer the funds I kept in TR to a P2PKH address.

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April 01, 2026, 08:31:44 PM
Merited by vapourminer (1), ABCbits (1)
 #147

A very intersting post today:




I know QR signatures were heavier, but I didn't suspect that was the scale of the problem.
Wondering if this would allow for bigger blocks to allow for the same TPS as today.

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April 02, 2026, 05:37:39 AM
 #148


OK, but what did Google currently discover that they shortened their "estimated" and "projected" Quantum Timeline? It's probably a suggestion that we as a community should also start having some awareness towards the Quantum Threat, no? Ignoring the situation, because "estimated and projected" won't make it go away.


Assuming that there is a good candidate, deploying a new address type with quantum safe signatures is easy. The issue with old coins, reused addresses and that will remain open. Still people forget how this world works. It is not going to be some random hacker in the world that will be able to steal money using this as he can from various shitcoins and their Defi protocols. Google is not legally able to steal any of these coins so even once they succeed it will remain merely a demonstration of what can be done by an extremely well funded and state of the art actor (not by everyone, not by random small or medium entities). What do you actually think a public company is able to steal digital property from others legally, including other legal entities from the USA?  Roll Eyes


 Roll Eyes

Do you actually believe that it helps the network if Google won't steal Satoshi's coins?

It looks like you didn't get the point. It's not about what they could still or not steal. It doesn't matter if they won't steal Satoshi's coins. What matters is the world knows that the cryptographic foundations of Bitcoin has been CRACKED.

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April 02, 2026, 05:46:40 AM
 #149

Yeah that sounds quite desperate tbh.

From uncracklable, invincible to, “it can be cracked but google won’t do that because cracking btc won’t benefit them. Trust google, they are the good bois”

Once the word is out and nothing is done about it, good luck stopping people.

The news are quite fresh btw and who knows at what stage of the development google is really at.

Trusting google’s good will is like trusting your best friend who has a loaded gun pointing at you. He won’t shoot because he is a gud guy but the gun is there

And once you know it is there, your friend’s (in this example it is google’s) words become the law. That picture reminds me of the US too.

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April 02, 2026, 06:35:01 PM
Last edit: April 02, 2026, 06:49:51 PM by Satofan44
Merited by NotFuzzyWarm (1)
 #150

Roll Eyes

Do you actually believe that it helps the network if Google won't steal Satoshi's coins?
Of course it does, learn how to world works. This is very different from just anyone can do it -- it gives us a significant amount of extra time to do something about this. If only Google is able to do this in 2030, that also means that no nefarious entity will be able to do it until 2035, 2040, 2050 or even beyond. We do not KNOW the exact timeline. Stop pretending like someone knows, they fucking don't.

It looks like you didn't get the point. It's not about what they could still or not steal. It doesn't matter if they won't steal Satoshi's coins. What matters is the world knows that the cryptographic foundations of Bitcoin has been CRACKED.
Nothing has been "cracked", cracking implies that the cryptography is broken through a fundamental flaw as is the case of some past algorithms. Bitcoin's cryptography was never about being unbreakable, it was about being computationally infeasible to compute with existing technology. That is the key difference here. This means that eventually computers CAN be built for which these computations are feasible. That is not a flaw in cryptography, it just means that assumptions relating to computational power no longer hold for these algorithms.

Yeah that sounds quite desperate tbh.

From uncracklable, invincible to, “it can be cracked but google won’t do that because cracking btc won’t benefit them. Trust google, they are the good bois”
Wrong. Google is legally not allowed to do this, they can be sued by countless parties to the ground over this. Don't hallucinate here with your normie arguments from 3rd world shitholes, that is not how a developed country works.

Once the word is out and nothing is done about it, good luck stopping people.
What word is out? Nobody will be able to do anything just because Google is able to do this one day in the future. Are you able to simulate at home what the biggest supercomputer can do now?  Roll Eyes


Keep it down with your shitposts, you don't even know the basic definitions and terms from cryptography let alone their implications.

A very intersting post today:


I know QR signatures were heavier, but I didn't suspect that was the scale of the problem.
Wondering if this would allow for bigger blocks to allow for the same TPS as today.
This post does not provide the data that is required to answer the question that you are wondering about. Size of the signatures is not necessarily related to the signing and verification cost. Some signatures could be very large in size but be efficient to verify, others could be relatively smaller (compared to those) but be extremely inefficient for verification. It says that there is a verification oriented post below, but I can't see that on that shit website. Here is some information slightly outdated about the topic in a wider context: https://pqshield.github.io/nist-sigs-zoo/#performance. There was another table that compared potential candidates for Bitcoin on Github but I am unable to locate it. If someone finds it, please post it -- it was a really nice table comparing size, signing cost, verification cost, everything.

But yes, the overall outcome is most likely: Less TPS for ANY real candidate. Therefore, to have the same amount of TPS we would have to increase the block size or increase the signature discount. How much more space we will need is going to depend on the exact signatures that we go with.

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April 04, 2026, 09:51:22 AM
Merited by vapourminer (1), ABCbits (1)
 #151

Yeah that sounds quite desperate tbh.

From uncracklable, invincible to, “it can be cracked but google won’t do that because cracking btc won’t benefit them. Trust google, they are the good bois”
Wrong. Google is legally not allowed to do this, they can be sued by countless parties to the ground over this. Don't hallucinate here with your normie arguments from 3rd world shitholes, that is not how a developed country works.

Once the word is out and nothing is done about it, good luck stopping people.
What word is out? Nobody will be able to do anything just because Google is able to do this one day in the future. Are you able to simulate at home what the biggest supercomputer can do now?  Roll Eyes


Keep it down with your shitposts, you don't even know the basic definitions and terms from cryptography let alone their implications.


We trust the judges to protect btc now?

You are saying it like no other company ever broke the law before.

I'd rather have mathematics/physics protect btc which is what we all love about cryptography.

It only takes one rouge employee with enough permissions to mess everything up. Is that a risk people want to take? We will see.

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April 04, 2026, 10:54:42 AM
Merited by vapourminer (4), ertil (1)
 #152

Here is some information slightly outdated about the topic in a wider context: https://pqshield.github.io/nist-sigs-zoo/#performance. There was another table that compared potential candidates for Bitcoin on Github but I am unable to locate it. If someone finds it, please post it -- it was a really nice table comparing size, signing cost, verification cost, everything.

Not exactly what you're looking for, but in past i used this table from https://chaincode.com/bitcoin-post-quantum.pdf page 18. They use multiple source, including link you mentioned.



But yes, the overall outcome is most likely: Less TPS for ANY real candidate. Therefore, to have the same amount of TPS we would have to increase the block size or increase the signature discount. How much more space we will need is going to depend on the exact signatures that we go with.

It would be better if it's combined with signature aggregation from multiple TX. There are few research/ideas about it, but Cross-input signature aggregation (CISA) appear to be most discussed.

I also prefer block size increase over increasing witness/signature discount factor, unless hard-fork rejected by many.

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April 04, 2026, 01:09:42 PM
 #153


--Snip--


Are you actually trying to make a debate that the community shouldn't treat this as something urgent? Because people who know more than you have actually shortened the timeline for the arrival of the Quantum Threat.

   ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

In my personal opinion, the Core Developers, the community including plebs like us should probably start to focus on learning/talking about the Quantum Threat and spend less time on foolish things like debating about BIP-110.

Plus the Core Developers should start working on it sooner rather than later, no?

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Today at 03:50:12 PM
Merited by ertil (1)
 #154

We trust the judges to protect btc now?

You are saying it like no other company ever broke the law before.
That is exactly what they are doing and how a legally sound country works, otherwise ETF custodians could deal a deep blow to Bitcoin by tomorrow. Learn how the world works, stop watching so many movies and imaging unrealistic scenarios where you create hyperbole danger out of them.

It only takes one rouge employee with enough permissions to mess everything up. Is that a risk people want to take? We will see.
Stop acting like a child, a quantum computer is not a Nintendo switch. A "rogue employee" can't do anything on their own. In many cases they would not be even able to power on the computer on their own. It is clear that you guys do not even have the faintest idea what these machines are, how they work or anything else other than knowing the word "qubits", i.e. the most meaningless piece of information.

Are you actually trying to make a debate that the community shouldn't treat this as something urgent? Because people who know more than you have actually shortened the timeline for the arrival of the Quantum Threat.
People who have a financial interest and whose entire career depends on this, and people who have otherwise malicious motives -- Here, fixed that nonsense for you.

In my personal opinion, the Core Developers, the community including plebs like us should probably start to focus on learning/talking about the Quantum Threat and spend less time on foolish things like debating about BIP-110.
There is absolutely nothing to debate at this time with most people. The community has nothing to debate at all yet. Should I ask random internet plebs which signatures are the least likely to be compromised by some future QC breakthrough and which have the best engineering tradeoffs? Don't tell me that social media actually made you that retarded. Cheesy

Plus the Core Developers should start working on it sooner rather than later, no?
Developers develop within their own competencies. Cryptographers do cryptography, learn the difference. 99.9% of developers are not cryptographers and do not know cryptography. So most developers are not going to be doing anything at all about this up until the point in time where there is something to review or code up, and we are far from this.

Not exactly what you're looking for, but in past i used this table from https://chaincode.com/bitcoin-post-quantum.pdf page 18. They use multiple source, including link you mentioned.


It was something similar to this, but that is close enough and helpful. As is obvious from that example, there is no scheme that does not come with a huge tradeoff.

It would be better if it's combined with signature aggregation from multiple TX. There are few research/ideas about it, but Cross-input signature aggregation (CISA) appear to be most discussed.
It would, but I am not sure whether that will be ready in time or whether that introduces some new vectors of testing and research when combined with new signatures.

I also prefer block size increase over increasing witness/signature discount factor, unless hard-fork rejected by many.
I do too, but as you see that the current state of society is messed up. Decentralized consensus is hard because both malicious and non malicious actors will waste our time with all sorts of nonsense. Some user here even recently argued against preventing the creation of new P2PK outputs, which is an opposition as stupid and ridiculous as it gets. Unfortunately these types of decentralized systems do not have any ways to force migrate everyone in a non-custodial way, otherwise we could remove a ton of technical debt fast and reap a lot of technical rewards from it.

It would be best to do all these things in separate proposals to limit the likelihood of rejections based on fringe reasoning. New signatures could be added first so that forward thinking people can start migrating, block P2PK creation, propose block size increase -- all as separated. But as you see in the list that you have provided, the first issue is which signatures. There is no point in wasting time speculating on timelines, edge cases, complicated scenarios, when there is no answer to the question of signatures yet. Focusing solely on the information from that chart, if you told me to pick one even if it is terrible I wouldn't be able to choose TBH right away because the tradeoffs are extreme in one thing or another. What about you ABCbits? @d5000 you too, which one would you chose if you had to?



Note for the part in bold at the end: The least likely thing to reach any kind of scenario are old P2PK outputs which include satoshi's coins. This situation will eventually test whether the keys to these coins still exist in somebody's posession, regardless of how and who satoshi is/was. This means that eventually, due to a failure of consensus, the coins are going to get compromised. Therefore, any kind of panicking is pointless.

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Today at 04:13:40 PM
Merited by vapourminer (1), stwenhao (1)
 #155

Yo guys, let's not flame war around quantum physics. Maybe back to today's reality, this part of Google's paper is what trips me up much more than the quantum part:

Quote
The statement that our ZK proof demonstrates is the following: we possess a classical reversible circuit of a specified size which on most inputs correctly computes point addition on the elliptic curve secp256k1 [84, 85]. This is the primary bottleneck in Shor’s quantum algorithm and can be related to the cost of the overall algorithm in a straightforward fashion provided that one is using a “windowed arithmetic” technique for multiplying an elliptic curve point by a scalar [45]. Therefore, verifying circuits for this subroutine is sufficient to substantiate our resource estimates. Furthermore, for the purposes of solving the ECDLP on a quantum computer, it is sufficient for the elliptic curve point addition circuit to yield correct results on most, rather than all, inputs [86]. This framing does leak two pieces of information about our result: (i) that we are using a classical reversible circuit executed in quantum superposition for the elliptic curve point addition and (ii) that we are using windowed arithmetic.

Before fighting about qubits error correction, there are two key takeaways TODAY:

1. Elliptic curve point addition is claimed (ZK-proved) to be REVERSIBLE in a CLASSICAL COMPUTING way. Is no one bothered at all?

2. No one knows how they did it. My personal opinion is that it is particularly targeted towards the secp256k1 curve. The paper is definitely targeting Bitcoin and other cryptos that use it, not EC in general. Again: is no one bothered?

For n00bz: reversing a point addition (finding some P and Q with known scalars, such that P + Q = R) is considered not feasible. Or at least it was considered as such until 5 days ago.

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Today at 04:35:54 PM
 #156

Yo guys, let's not flame war around quantum physics. Maybe back to today's reality, this part of Google's paper is what trips me up much more than the quantum part:

Quote
The statement that our ZK proof demonstrates is the following: we possess a classical reversible circuit of a specified size which on most inputs correctly computes point addition on the elliptic curve secp256k1 [84, 85]. This is the primary bottleneck in Shor’s quantum algorithm and can be related to the cost of the overall algorithm in a straightforward fashion provided that one is using a “windowed arithmetic” technique for multiplying an elliptic curve point by a scalar [45]. Therefore, verifying circuits for this subroutine is sufficient to substantiate our resource estimates. Furthermore, for the purposes of solving the ECDLP on a quantum computer, it is sufficient for the elliptic curve point addition circuit to yield correct results on most, rather than all, inputs [86]. This framing does leak two pieces of information about our result: (i) that we are using a classical reversible circuit executed in quantum superposition for the elliptic curve point addition and (ii) that we are using windowed arithmetic.

1. Elliptic curve point addition is claimed (ZK-proved) to be REVERSIBLE in a CLASSICAL COMPUTING way. Is no one bothered at all?
You completely misunderstood what it means, that is why nobody is bothered by it. If nobody is bothered by something usually, especially something that is highly publicized, that indicates that there is nothing to be bothered by -- it does not indicate that you are the rare genius that figured out something that nobody else did. Reversible does not mean what you think it means -- it is not about breaking secp256k1, it means that the circuit keeps everything in tact instead of overwriting values so the steps can be done backwards. Basically it just means information is not discarded while computing.

Quote
Reversible computing is considered an unconventional approach to computation and is closely linked to quantum computing, where the principles of quantum mechanics inherently ensure reversibility (as long as quantum states are not measured or "collapsed").
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reversible_computing
Here is a paper from 4 years ago with the title: Classical Reversible Logic Circuits for Quantum Computer Control. https://debenedictis.org/erik/CATC/MgtECompZF010v3.pdf

Get back to the basics or go back to topics that more closely align with your competencies.

2. No one knows how they did it. My personal opinion is that it is particularly targeted towards the secp256k1 curve. The paper is definitely targeting Bitcoin and other cryptos that use it, not EC in general. Again: is no one bothered?
Why would I be? With hundreds or thousands of different parties researching quantum stuff, some will have to focus on Bitcoin. Why would they not? It is one of the most widely used curves and if they want to estimate the cost of breaking real-world systems, what should they do? Focus on curves that nobody uses and extrapolate from that?  Roll Eyes The technique that they are using here will work on any curve so it is not really special in the way that you think it is.

For n00bz: reversing a point addition (finding some P and Q with known scalars, such that P + Q = R) is considered not feasible. Or at least it was considered as such until 5 days ago.
It is not a reversible computation.

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Today at 04:39:08 PM
 #157

@d5000 you too, which one would you chose if you had to?
Ugh. I'm not an expert of this at all, but as I'm not that bad at googling, here's my (only slightly "informed") opinion:

- For now, hash based schemes like SPHINCS+ seems to be the safest option. They're based on well known mathematical properties, and hashes are also "holding the blockchain together". Jonas Nick has proposed a variant called SHRINCS with signature sizes of 272 bytes, which is even better than FALCON. FALCON and lattice-based systems seem more experimental and complex.
- For the long term, SQIsign looks nice, but it seems it's the most experimental and untested of all these variants. I think the main problem, the cost of creating a signature, is not that much of a bottleneck than block sizes. The verification cost could however increase the cost of running a full node. If my googling results are correct, if the current Bitcoin blockchain was based on SQIsign, the initial blockchain download would take about 6 months with consumer hardware. The bottleneck seems to be mainly the CPU.

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Today at 06:06:43 PM
 #158

It is not a reversible computation.

Yes it is, but it is considered unfeasible. The GLV endomorphism deterministically splits any scalar into two half-width scalars (hence, k1*P and k2*P') where k1, k2 are small 128-bit, and P' = lambda*P = {P.x * beta, P.y}

So kG = k1G + k2G' (which should only ever be the one-way solution) will have k broken if the two points (uniquely determined in advance) are found (in absence of k). This should usually be a 2**256 brute-force problem to solve, but much faster than checking every possible k, because only point additions are performed (hundreds of times faster than a point multiplication) using a pre-determined relatively small data set, and simpler arithmetics.

And I heard quantum computers are good at brute-forcing all possibilities simultaneously, especially if they're all independent, like in this case.

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Today at 07:14:22 PM
 #159

Quote
Elliptic curve point addition is claimed (ZK-proved) to be REVERSIBLE in a CLASSICAL COMPUTING way. Is no one bothered at all?
Of course it is reversible, because you have 1:1 mapping between private and public keys. If you use some weaker elliptic curve, and you start using bigger and bigger numbers, then you will see, that each and every valid public key has exactly one matching private key. Which is also why you can count all points, without breaking the curve, and calculate n-value from p-value, and the curve equation. If you know, that p=79, and y^2=x^3+7, then you can calculate, that n=67. And the same for bigger numbers: you can calculate the exact number of keys, even if you cannot break the curve, and bruteforce every public key.

Maybe a different word can describe it better: collisionless. Hash functions are considered irreversible, because for a single hash, you can have multiple values, which will lead you to the same result. But if you have elliptic curves, then in case of secp256k1, it is collisionless, so for a single public key, there is only one matching private key, and you can see it mathematically, because otherwise, you could factor n-value, which is prime.

Quote
My personal opinion is that it is particularly targeted towards the secp256k1 curve.
If someone would tell me, that secp256k1 has a weakness, which is not present in other curves, then I would guess, that it could be related to factorization of (n-1) value: because that kind of things can be weak for secp256k1, while being stronger for some other curves. But in that case, switching to a different elliptic curve could solve it, if it would factor into 2, 3, and some huge prime number.

For example: y^2=x^3+3, p=0xffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffcce82b9b, n=0xffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff4baa10269d6cad3c794b5056fcee1c37.

Related topic: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5485560

So, if there would be something, which would be weak for secp256k1 specifically, while being strong for other curves, then it would be similar to that. And then, using a curve with different parameters would solve that problem. Or rather: it would be "patched", just like SHA-1 was turned into "hardened SHA-1", based specifically on the attack, that was presented.

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Today at 09:10:38 PM
 #160

Quote
Some user here even recently argued against preventing the creation of new P2PK outputs, which is an opposition as stupid and ridiculous as it gets.
You probably underestimate, how hard it would be, to actually abandon secp256k1. I think many people would agree to drop P2PK support entirely, if it could be done easily. However, it has some consequences, for example: there could exist some pre-signed, timelocked transactions, which would use it. And then, if you block it on consensus level, then these transactions would be turned from valid into invalid, and they could no longer be included later. Even for things like P2SH, old outputs were not blocked just like that: the old way of moving coins was only made non-standard, but not invalid.

Also, as mentioned previously by Saint Wenhao, we have an example of a cryptographic primitive, where people thought, that it would be just "replaced", but the reality proven otherwise: SHA-1. When Git will migrate from SHA-1 to SHA-256, or anything else? Never? Because now, they migrated only to "hardened SHA-1", as well as many other entities. Before 2017, people thought, that if some hash function will be broken, then it will be simply replaced. But in case of SHA-1, it didn't happen: old systems just received some "patches", and now we know, that if something is heavily used in many places, then it will be endlessly "hardened", instead of being "replaced", because this is just how the backward compatibility works in our world.

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I also prefer block size increase over increasing witness/signature discount factor, unless hard-fork rejected by many
If increasing the size of the block from 1 MB to 4 MB was difficult in 2017, then guess how much harder it would be now, when people are pushing JPEGs into the blockchain. Of course if anything will be increased, then it will be done in the same way as previously, when Segwit discount was invented: old nodes will still see 4 MB witness, and new nodes could see 4 GB "commitments", or whatever will be the name of the "space for quantum things", which wouldn't be processed by any old nodes (because if it would, then it would obviously lower TPS, as you can easily notice from many tables).

But I think it is much more likely, that if 4 MB limit will be kept as it is, then people will do everything they can, to pick a signature, which will take the least amount of space. Because this is the thing, that is the easiest one to deploy in existing testnets, and because all old nodes could simply treat it as valid through OP_SUCCESS (so the whole cost will be paid only by new nodes, and everyone else will continue using secp256k1, for as long, as they can).

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the first issue is which signatures
Of course all of them, if not more. Even if you don't know about some things, then still: some mockups can be prepared. It is possible to assume, that "foobar signatures" are deployed, and handled properly by some unknown, upgraded nodes. And then, some things can be simulated, like: what is the maximum acceptable verification time, signature size, or any other metric you want to measure.

In this case, things can be deployed into existing testnets to see, how a particular algorithm works in practice. And then, if you want to compare different algorithms within the same coin, then it is obvious, that they should be somehow attached to the same chain, to make things comparable.

So, how to fairly compare verification time? By allowing the old nodes to not do that: just like pre-Segwit nodes know nothing about Segwit, and pre-Taproot nodes never verify P2TR addresses. And how to fairly compare signature sizes? By allowing any discount a particular algorithm would need, which means having a sigops limit, instead of a size limit.

And then, you can have some existing testnet, where a zoo of future algorithms could be tested, and the winner could emerge from all of that. Then, one client could use Lamport, another could use XMSS, and someone else could use FALCON 512, while still using the same blockchain, moving the same coins to different subnetworks, and so on, and so forth.

Which means, that the answer to the question "which signatures" is simple: anything, that could be deployed faster, than other competitors. If you want to join that race, then just pick anything you like, and push things forward. Because in the open-source world, things are not picked, because they are better: for many things we use, there are cheaper, faster, and better alternatives. But Bitcoin Core is not written in C++, because it is the best language: it is written in that way, just because Satoshi decided to do so, and deployed the first working client faster, than other mailing list readers, who also read the whitepaper. Which also means, that we won't necessarily have "the best possible thing in existence". Instead, we will have "the earliest deployed thing", and we will be stuck with it for years or decades.

Also, something else outside the list, can have even higher chances of being deployed in practice. For example: if someone will find a flaw in secp256k1, and someone will made a "hardened secp256k1", which will fix only that bug, without breaking anything else, then we will be in the same situation, as it was with SHA-1: a patch will be applied, and nothing will be changed for a longer time. Because patching wins with replacement: that's why UTF-8 won with UTF-16, UTF-32, and other things: because of being ASCII-compatible.

By the way: do I like, that our world is constantly patched? Of course I don't. And many other people would happily replace old systems with new inventions, if it would be simple. But this is not how the world works, and there are many examples, where things are not replaced, unless you find a very critical vulnerability, where everything fully collapses instantly, like in Value Overflow Incident. Only then you can hard-reject old things: because the old system is no longer usable.
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