An Arrest/deportation Scenario

[kotajikikox]

First of all, keeping yourself safe is a priority. You can ask for help from NGOs and seek whatever you need from them including internet access or any way of contact. If you have internet access, you should move your coins to a different wallet with the seed you have stored somewhere else other than your house. If you didn’t, then you’d have to ask someone else to get it for you. Just make sure they are trustworthy.

[aoluain]

Her bank account would not be recognised in India until she went through the process of getting it transferred, thats not instant though.

Recognized? By who? Who is in charge of recognizing bank accounts?  
Or do you want to say my bank account in Germany is not recognized by India, lol!!! That would mean tommorow the European Union is going to stop working since there is no branch of Erste Bank in Italy or of Banco Santander in Poland.

She just needs to have a credit/debit card attached to her account, which 101% of the people have in US, and it she can get money from every ATM in the world, she can get a bank account in India the moment she lands and a make a wire from the her US account, this is no longer the stone age she will get her money in under 24 hous.

Seriously, stop making such a big deal of a thing that can be solved in hours.

when she landed there she must have had only what she had when she was arrested in the US.

That's not how things work in deportations and do use logic for a moment, if they get you on the beach they will send you back to India in a bra and bikini?  
https://www.ice.gov/doclib/detention-standards/2011/2-5.pdf

I travel to the Netherlands every year and I know I cant use a particular bank card
(from another European country) because it isnt "recognised" everywhere. Cant buy
travel tickets, cant withdraw cash
from ATM's. So its not a "Who" doesnt recognise my bank account/card.

So assuming you are arrested and deported and have all your bank cards on your person,
have suitable arrangements to be able to access your Bitcoin anywhere in the world
then there is nothing to worry about - most people dont though.

The point of the thread is about being able to access notably your Bitcoin when
you find yourself removed from your HW and or seed.

In theory everything should work out very fine, just do this, and just do that, in reality
theory can quickly get thrown out the window for any number of reasons and you
can quickly find yourself in a bind in such a situation.

[Renampun]

snip

The vast majority of us will never encounter such a scenario but...

Outside of asking a family member/friend to retrieve your HW wallet and/or seed
What do you do in such a scenario?

When we are about to be deported, there should still be a procedure, the security forces cannot immediately expel us from our residence, unless we are a criminal, but people are still given the opportunity to retrieve their belongings, but if that is not the case, perhaps storing it online in an encrypted manner is an option that can be taken to back up our seed phrase, but we need to make sure that we add some additional words to our seed phrase and save it on 2 different and reputable platforms, since saving it online is more risky.

[AVE5]

That's a very hash policy but since the law can't be questioned then we don't have to argue it. Instead it'd be better we discuss about the happening on the lose of your belongings. So assuming I'm a US foreigner base or elsewhere that the rule is effective, I fear how a bitcoin owner who has only planted his seed phrase around the environs can recover their bitcoin if they won't have the chances to pick the wallets keys. That means vulnerables living in that such places with consciousness of having hold to their funds secured with the use of hardware or having your seed phrase stored in the nearby is tantamount to lose it.
I seriously can't find myself in such areas because as a hustler in a forum country like that, I'd store more of my money in bitcoin to curb inflation of saving in the bank with how long time I'd spent out there. So following this road to empty hand if victimized, this can be avoided by storing our seed seed phrase online such as saving in an email draft that isn't linked to other network providers or any users connected to your account. In this scenario, offline seed phrase system might be risky to claim our funds our all long of accumulated that value of bitcoin.

[Smartvirus]

Assuming you are picked up outside your home and deported you lose possession of
your belongings including your hardware wallet and seed (assuming you dont carry it
with you and assuming the officials havent confiscated it)

I cant figure out how I would survive if I had no contacts left in the country
they deported me to, with possibly no or limited money and no access to my
bank or to my Bitcoin.

I haven’t given this much of a thought given that, I reside in my country of origin more often than not but, assuming I did live in some foreign land, I can’t imagine how devastating this could be.

By the way, is this how deportation actually works? You don’t get the chance to pick up a good number of your important documents even under surveillance?

If that be the case then, the issue isn’t really with the fact that, you might not have your wallet details with you but, something is wrong with the system and should be looked into.

It’s good to have you raise this issue for migrants as it’s indeed something to consider as a Bitcoin investor.

[X-ray]

I've read about PoA (Power of Attorney) that can handle your property or other matters. Maybe you can seek legal assistance if that were to happen.

It could also be reasonable for us to encrypt our seed phrase and split it parts by parts to store it in the cloud, could expose us to other danger of getting hacked and losing our seed phrase but since the seed phrase in encrypted I doubt it will be that easy.

This scenario could definitely happen and it certainly is a concern.

[pooya87]

Outside of asking a family member/friend to retrieve your HW wallet and/or seed
What do you do in such a scenario?

The best and only viable option is to get out of the jurisdiction that may do these things to you (ie. reverse migration back home), specially now that the world is moving toward a larger scale armed conflict. You can read about what the US regime did to Americans who came from Japan during the WW2 (Executive Order 9066) by mass arresting everyone and putting them in concentration camps.

That's because next move may not be deportation specially if the conflict grows and US regime (same as other authoritarian regimes in the West) gets more desperate for workers (slaves mostly), in which case it doesn't matter how you store your bitcoins, you will have no access when you are in a concentration camp without any access to anything including the internet.

Apart from that the only other option is unfortunately storing the seed phrase on the internet. In which case it has to be heavily encrypted with a strong password then stored in multiple locations (eg. google drive, dropbox, onedrive, etc.) so that if you get deported you can easily access your money.

I've read about PoA (Power of Attorney) that can handle your property or other matters. Maybe you can seek legal assistance if that were to happen.

That costs a lot of money, money that the deported person may no longer have.
Additionally, these are special times where the rule of law goes away and the ruling class becomes more brutal and breaks the law. Again check the WW2 events in the USA...

[BitGoba]

Everyone should memorize their 12 words and keep multiple secure backups of their seed phrase in different locations. This woman, even though she has been in the U.S. for 30 years, surely still has relatives in India. Im from the Balkans, in Southeastern Europe, and in our tradition family is the most important, considered sacred, and family ties remain strong even when people move far away. Help among family members (financial or emotional) is normal and expected.These bonds are preserved through many generations. I believe its similar in India and other Eastern countries. It’s not like in America and other Western nations, where everyone mostly lives for themselves and relatives usually gather only for Christmas.So this woman surely has a lot of close relatives back in her home country.

[BurningChrome]

Forget about relying on family and friends; trusting them and hoping they can handle tough situations is a recipe for disaster. That's a weak spot waiting to break.

The only real solution to your problem is having backups in different places. If your plan doesn't spread across different areas and need several things to go wrong before it fails, it's not a good security plan.

[Free Market Capitalist]

What do you do in such a scenario?

What I would do, and what I do, is avoid finding myself in that situation.

The only real solution to your problem is having backups in different places. If your plan doesn't spread across different areas and need several things to go wrong before it fails, it's not a good security plan.

That's right, although he's talking about someone who is residing illegally in a country, and in that case they won't have several properties where they can store multiple copies of the seeds, because they can't legally buy real estate to begin with. But even in that situation, you always have to have a backup plan just in case what the OP describes happens to you.

[fullfitlarry]

I don't know what the exact procedure is for deportations when it comes to the US, but shouldn't those who are deported be allowed to take at least some personal belongings with them?

According to their website:

If ICE officials arrest you, there’s no going back — you may not have time to get your affairs in order, gather your belongings, or even say goodbye to the people you care about.

https://www.ice.gov/self-deportation

So most likely you can't retrieved your hardware wallet or anything related to crypto if you are arrested, unless you do self-deportation.

If that is not the case, then the only way for a deported person to regain possession of their backup is to encrypt it and store it online, and try to remember the password. In that case, you would have access to your backup anywhere in the world where you have internet access.

That could be one way to get it back, but then again, this is a rare case that we should be putting our back-up in the internet. We also advises not to do this because it's always online. But there could be exception to the rules.

[ABCbits]

The vast majority of us will never encounter such a scenario but...

Outside of asking a family member/friend to retrieve your HW wallet and/or seed
What do you do in such a scenario?

While it's generally not recommended, IMO this one of scenario where brainwallet or having encrypted cloud backup may help you.

Still not recommended like you said, cloud backup have messed many people up, I will only do this if the amount of the total asset isn't that much, in the hundreds of dollars, the moment it's over a thousand in dollars it is best to buy a hardware wallet, how you want to move it around is your problem.

I'm aware cloud storage doesn't always have good reputation due to them prevent user access their data or closed it service. But the risk could be reduced by using multiple cloud storage provider.

Honestly this isn't the advice we should be sharing base on what OP shared, instead of saying that brainwallet or cloud backup isn't generally bad in this type of situation why can't we advice people to stay away from crime, any type of crime that can get you deported from a foreign country abstain from it.

OP labeled her, the old woman as ordinary, I refuse to believe it, it is nothing out of the ordinary that some people are doing everything they can to survive in today's world, these people can't be clean and still get deported, ordinary residents? They are not ordinary.

OP clearly ask how to keep having access to Bitcoin in such scenario, rather than preventing such scenario. I won't debate whether the deportation (along with asset confiscation) is justifiable or not.

I see a lot of people talking about brainwallet or having encrypted cloud backup, using these is the same as using an exchange.

Brainwallet basically works by hashing text into 256-bit data which as private key, so saying brainwallet is same with using exchange is ridiculous. As for encrypted backup on cloud storage, the cloud storage provider doesn't have access to your Bitcoin either (unless they decide to copy and decrypt it).

[aoluain]

I don't know what the exact procedure is for deportations when it comes to the US, but shouldn't those who are deported be allowed to take at least some personal belongings with them?

According to their website:

If ICE officials arrest you, there’s no going back — you may not have time to get your affairs in order, gather your belongings, or even say goodbye to the people you care about.

https://www.ice.gov/self-deportation

So most likely you can't retrieved your hardware wallet or anything related to crypto if you are arrested, unless you do self-deportation.

Correct - I couldnt articulate that myself - this is the crux of the issue, you could be picked up,
detained for a period of time without contact with friends/family and just deported. You may or may
not have your belongings [wallet/cash/smartphone/etc] with you when detained. Anyway as I posted in
the OP I was aiming for the discussion to be more about access to your Bitcoin in such events as opposed
to the case of any deportations. I similar event could be while you are an extended holiday in a
different country and are unable to return home due to whatever reasons. I know, I know you
could just "call a friend" and get money transferred to your account.

Outside of asking a family member/friend to retrieve your HW wallet and/or seed
What do you do in such a scenario?

The best and only viable option is to get out of the jurisdiction that may do these things to you (ie. reverse migration back home), specially now that the world is moving toward a larger scale armed conflict.

and a more violent, aggressive and hardline approach from right thinking populations on agendas
like immigration which often paints a lot of people with the one brush. More and more people
could find themselves in such a situation as per the thread theme.


So I didnt want to discuss the rights and wrongs of deportation specifically rather to discuss making
sure we put plans in place to make sure as best we can that we have access to our finances in
whatever situations arise.

Honestly this isn't the advice we should be sharing base on what OP shared, instead of saying that brainwallet or cloud backup isn't generally bad in this type of situation why can't we advice people to stay away from crime, any type of crime that can get you deported from a foreign country abstain from it.

OP labeled her, the old woman as ordinary, I refuse to believe it, it is nothing out of the ordinary that some people are doing everything they can to survive in today's world, these people can't be clean and still get deported, ordinary residents? They are not ordinary.

OP clearly ask how to keep having access to Bitcoin in such scenario, rather than preventing such scenario. I won't debate whether the deportation (along with asset confiscation) is justifiable or not.

correct ABC

[Lucius]

I don't know what the exact procedure is for deportations when it comes to the US, but shouldn't those who are deported be allowed to take at least some personal belongings with them?

According to their website:

If ICE officials arrest you, there’s no going back — you may not have time to get your affairs in order, gather your belongings, or even say goodbye to the people you care about.

https://www.ice.gov/self-deportation
So most likely you can't retrieved your hardware wallet or anything related to crypto if you are arrested, unless you do self-deportation.
~snip~

Unbelievable, and all this in the 21st century in a country that claims to have the greatest democracy and protection of human rights. They behave like the Nazis during the Second World War when they caught Jews in the streets and houses and deported them to death camps, with the difference that they did not prevent them from taking their personal belongings (although for some other reasons).

[Rockstarguy]

The vast majority of us will never encounter such a scenario but...

Outside of asking a family member/friend to retrieve your HW wallet and/or seed
What do you do in such a scenario?

While it's generally not recommended, IMO this one of scenario where brainwallet or having encrypted cloud backup may help you.

The truth is that if it already happened and you do not have the encrypted copy of your seed phrase or a part of your seed phrase for recovery, I think there is nothing you can do about it.

For someone who never prepared for deportation and does not have any of these to recover a hardware wallet, I think the only option is to reach out to a trusted friend or close person to see if they can help retrieve or send the funds, but only if they are genuine and trustworthy. If they cannot be trusted, there is no need to think about this or even to try because you may end up not having it at all.

[d5000]

I'll limit myself to technical solutions to prevent such a scenario, because in the situation where you are already being deported and not longer accessing your keys, you indeed need assistance and Bitcoin's technology can't save you.

One of the ideas that crossed my mind is using an inheritance protocol with locktime. You would still need a third person in most scenarios, but there is less trust involved than if you simply give them a backup.

So what you can do is to send each year (or each time you move your funds) a transaction with Locktime 1 year ahead to an address a relative in your original home country owns the keys (Note: The transaction needs to be sent to your relative too, because it won't propagate in the Bitcoin network.). Few days before the locktime expires you move your funds to a different address and repeat the process.

If you're deported you can then contact your relative and request them to get the keys back after at most a year. Above all if it's a person you don't see that often, there is less temptation for them to simply steal your coins than when you had given them a full backup key and they have all the time of the world to access the coins. You could also transfer the locktime transaction to a 2-of-3 multisig for example, where three relatives hold a key, and you need two of them to give you back your funds (two of course could still conspire against you).

This is of course mostly useful for a cold or "semi cold" wallet where you deposit funds for HODL and not for payments or trading.

A solution combining that with what ABCbits wrote is sending the Locktimed transaction to a multisig address with the keys stored in different online clouds. You have however to care to be able to identify to the cloud services from anywhere.

You also use exchanges or custodial wallets instead of relatives as the destination of the Locktime address: if you are able to identify there with your passport or ID even when losing the access password, then you will be able to claim the funds.

[lionheart78]

If the internet and cloudsaving is are too risky and the brainwallet has lots of holes, why not go with this idea? Let's go primitive and let the tattoos give a hint of our seed phrases.  I really like this idea by m2017.  The tattoos are to remind us of the key words for our brainwallet.  I believe no one will get a hint that these tattoos are the key to our Bitcoin stash  ,  unless of course we brag about it.

This idea ↓↓↓ is really great, IMO . ↓↓↓

I would suggest enhancing the brainwallet with encrypted seed-phrase hints. Writing them on paper, in an electronic file, and so on are not suitable. You should apply the hint to something you always have with you, such as human skin. Create a tattoo containing "images" of the 12 words, so that when you look at them, you'll remember the original words. In other words, it should be a combination of a brainwallet and information encrypted in a way you understand. This will act as an "anchor" for your memory, and if you forget the words, the tattoo with images encrypted as "images" will help you recall them. Also, this seed-phrase will always be with you. Wherever you are. Until the end. Of course, this seed-phrase can't be displayed anywhere else, because if it is compromised, it will be difficult to change the tattoo.

This is a complex and unsuitable option for you, but in my opinion, it is more reliable.

[m2017]

If you are deported &  lose your hardware wallet &  seed phrase, your bitcoins are effectively inaccessible. Without the seed phrase, there is no way to recover your wallet, harsh but fair & reality..

Therefore, need to ensure that seed phrase is always with you. This gives you mobility and the advantage of not having to return to the locations where you left seed (this also creates the risk of being discovered by unauthorized persons). Life can be very unpredictable, and you never know whether you'll be able to return to the location with seed phrase stored (and whether your relatives and friends will be there to pass it on).

I see a lot of people talking about brainwallet or having encrypted cloud backup, using these is the same as using an exchange.

Accessing a cloud backup requires a login and password, which also need to be stored somewhere. If you forget or lose it, access to the backup will be lost.

I think if you use cloud storage, you need to complicate the storage process, meaning you need to make it difficult for unauthorized persons to access the data.

For example, you could pre-encrypt the encrypted seed phrase with a Caesar cipher or another known, accessible, or understandable method. This means that if attackers gain access to the cloud and decrypt your backup, they're faced with another level of protection.

Brainwallet + an encrypted seed phrase tattoo is also not the most secure method, but at the moment, I can't think of anything better. Tattooed skin is not the most durable material and is susceptible to injury. Damaging this area can also lead to the loss of part of the encrypted seed phrase. There's no perfect way to store the seed phrase. But in my opinion, the main advantage of this method is that the seed will always be with you, and no one but you will know about it.

Brainwallet alone is just as dangerous, because while intoxicated or delirious\in a dream, you can accidentally utter the seed phrase (although this sounds a bit paranoid, it can happen). Therefore, the seed phrase encrypted as a tattoo will protect even from you. In other words, it should be possible for you to "decode" it based on your tattoo, rather than memorize it.

This isn't a call to use this method, but rather a reflection on the best solution to this problem. In my opinion, having a tattoo "with meaning, like the seed phrase", is better than having a "meaningless" tattoo. This will have both aesthetic and practical benefits.

I also have another (slightly futuristic) idea for storing the seed phrase: implanting a capsule (not made of metal) under your skin containing information about the seed phrase. The problem I currently see is how to ensure that only you, and not someone else in a public place, can read the information in this capsule.

So, the idea is to always have the seed phrase with you (without anyone else knowing about it), allowing you to "decode" it at any time and use your wallet. The only question is how exactly to "add" the hidden seed phrase to your body so you can carry it with you at all times.

Don't suggest the option used in prisons.

What I think you can do is back up your seed phrase, write it down &  store it in multiple secure locations, such as a fireproof safe or a trusted family members home. You can also use a multisig wallet, services like Bitkey offer multisig wallets where you hold two keys &  a third party holds the third. You may also want to consider giving a trusted person power of attorney to manage your crypto assets in case of a legal emergency. You may also want to consult with a legal professional about your rights &  options for accessing your assets after deportment.

The ultimate bottom line is, not your keys, not your coins.

Splitting the key into parts creates the problem of having to visit multiple locations, which can be difficult, for example, due to geopolitical situations.

Therefore, ideally, I believe, the keys should always be with you. The only problem is the method of implementing this.

[GeorgeJohn]

For me theirs no solution for the person to have access to the seed phrase provided that he has nobody to contact for the country is been deported from, and secondly it has not pasted or encrypted the seed phrase on recovery before the incident of deportation.

If the person have friends or any relatives, to contact after it has gotten to he or her country, it would have be better, another thing about deportation is that, it may happen anytime to anybody, so someone who is dealing cryptocurrency, have to operate on a safety measure,

To backup it's necessary documents that carries he or her vital informations by having friends that can have access to your documents when you're not around or available

Because there's no way you can documents a seed phrase online, everything about safety documentation of seed phrase have to be offline and it's impossible to many people to memorise seed phrase, so having contacts of neighbours that can access your resident is the best option, and all these can be actuallised is if government have not confiscate the belongings of the person.

[Gozie51]

It is not recommended to use brains but if my practice is diversifying my coins to different wallets, at least I will try to use my brain and memory to remember wallet mnemonic seed of a biggest wallet.

For me I don't think a brain wallet is a good solution to immigrants saving their passphrase, it is dangerous. If I'm an immigrant and I know I have a limited stay over there either because of being deported, I will look for means to project my wallet passphrase and for now what is coming to my mind is saving it in my email and then safeguard my email password and using strong security like 2FA so that before you break into my email, it will be a difficult task.