Why sending zero merits is not possible?

[ertil]

The merit system is based on Bitcoin, and it tries to reflect some properties of that. You cannot send more than 50 merits once (which refers to the basic block reward we started with), there are "merit fees", equal to 50% of the sent amount, there are "miners" called "merit sources", which can mine coins by just waiting for them to re-appear every 30 days, and so on.

So, why sending zero merits is not possible? Of course, as usual, it doesn't have to be free, and a single merit can be deducted by that action (or maybe some bigger amount, to discourage misuse, but sending single merits is perfectly valid, so it probably shouldn't be much harder than that). But I think it should be possible, unless zero satoshis will be banned from Bitcoin as a sendable amount.

Someone could argue, that meriting a post, and sending a payment, are two different things. But then, in a payment system, sending "zero" also doesn't sound as something, which would make much sense in normal circumstances, and the main use case is to remain compatible with existing system, during making some features (for example: hiding coin amounts). Otherwise, sending zero amount could be easily invalidated by the next soft-fork, but there are technical reasons, to not turn off that feature.

[Z_MBFM]

Merit is not an Fun

Merit is a reward of quality posting. So here those who send merit to someone are giving him merit as a reward based on his post. So there is no logic here to send Zero Merit. However, the -merit feature can be implemented for poor quality posts.

Sending zero value merit will be just for fun. It will not maintain a high value of merit. So this matter is completely illogical.

And it's ridiculous that you're commenting without understanding the merit system. Where did you see that merit is like Bitcoin? And where did you see that more than 50 merits can't be sent at once? Can you provide any reference for your statement?

[Hatchy]

Did you drop a hammer on your head? Where is your idea of the merit System being related to bitcoin coming from? If you don't mind drop a link for us to reference.

Why would you want to send zero merits? Does it make any sense. And what importance would that be to any one if being sent.

[TryNinja]

The merit system is definitely not based on Bitcoin. There is no blockchain, no nodes, no decentralization, no utxo.

It's literally just a simple database where you have sMerits and can use them to merit a post, with specific rules. theymos definitely doesn't want any spam with the zero merits.

Very creative to think the 50 merits limit refers to the btc block rewars, though.

[Bch219]

I believe Theymos has better things to do than implement sending zero merits just to conform with the Bitcoin system.

[ertil]

Merit is not an Fun

So, you want to tell me, that a centralized merit system is more serious than Bitcoin, which allows you to send zero coins, and it is a valid transaction?

Merit is a reward of quality posting.

And Bitcoin is "A Peer-to-Peer Electronic Cash System". But guess what: sending zero satoshis is possible, and the whole Script under such UTXO is fully checked and always enforced.

So there is no logic here to send Zero Merit.

Then tell me, why Bitcoin allows sending zero coins? Is it not serious? Is it just for fun? Should it be disabled in the future version?

[Cookdata]

The merit system is based on Bitcoin, and it tries to reflect some properties of that. You cannot send more than 50 merits once (which refers to the basic block reward we started with), there are "merit fees", equal to 50% of the sent amount, there are "miners" called "merit sources", which can mine coins by just waiting for them to re-appear every 30 days, and so on.

This is misinformation, not even close to why merit was created for the forum. Before merit introduction, the forum was full of low quality posts and spams. Only activity and post was required to rank up and it was easy then to get to a new rank, as a single line of spam post can give you activity to rank up.

The merit was introduced as a way to reward quality post even as activity limit existed. When the merit came, to rank up became tough and hard. The existed accounts were airdrop based on the rank they achieved already based on their activity.

⤷Merit and new rank requirement: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2818350.0

Only an approved member by theymos can be a merit source and each of them with their allocation. This has nothing to with Bitcoin or miners like you said.

So, why sending zero merits is not possible? Of course, as usual, it doesn't have to be free, and a single merit can be deducted by that action (or maybe some bigger amount, to discourage misuse, but sending single merits is perfectly valid, so it probably shouldn't be much harder than that). But I think it should be possible, unless zero satoshis will be banned from Bitcoin as a sendable amount.

Someone could argue, that meriting a post, and sending a payment, are two different things. But then, in a payment system, sending "zero" also doesn't sound as something, which would make much sense in normal circumstances, and the main use case is to remain compatible with existing system, during making some features (for example: hiding coin amounts). Otherwise, sending zero amount could be easily invalidated by the next soft-fork, but there are technical reasons, to not turn off that feature.

The merit system isn't this complex  

You know what?  Try and erase this you have up there and read about merit system.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2766177

[Su-asa]

So long as you don't need to undergo any Bitcoin transactions, the value of zero will be meaningless.
If we are to solve some mathematical questions, "0" might be valuable but it depends on the kind of mathematical questions you want to solve. But here on the forum, you don't need to solve anything to send merit to any post that is why "0" is not valuable while sending merits. all you need to do is understand the post you are sending the merits to and by understanding the post you will know the numbers of merit to send to it.

[ertil]

Did you drop a hammer on your head?

No. And I am not the first person, who thought about that. But I didn't find any similar topic.

Also note, that "zero" is the default value. So, why sending the default value doesn't work? Shouldn't it be set to "1", instead of "0", if sending zero is blocked?

Why would you want to send zero merits?

To burn them. Because Proof of Burn is possible in case of Bitcoin. But it is not possible in case of a merit system. Of course, you can send them to some banned account, but why there is no other black hole for merits?

Does it make any sense.

And does Bitcoin transactions sending zero coins make any sense? People even pay real fees for doing that!

And what importance would that be to any one if being sent.

It would decrease the amount of merits in circulation, while also not increasing anyone's rank, or ability to send merits to other people. There are some posts, where I would send zero merits, if it could be possible. And sending "1" can be sometimes interpreted as "I like it" or "I agree", while it is not always the case.

theymos definitely doesn't want any spam with the zero merits

Exactly the same thing can be done with a "spam" of "one merit", and it could have the same cost. So, if sending a single merit is "not a spam", then why sending zero would be?

[Karl_3000]

Also note, that "zero" is the default value. So, why sending the default value doesn't work? Shouldn't it be set to "1", instead of "0", if sending zero is blocked?

It is not bad for it to be in zero or it should be blank with no number there. If it will be blank, it will be better but the 0 there does not mean. No one is complaining about it.

[ertil]

No one is complaining about it.

And the whole linked topic, which you quoted, but probably didn't read is made by nobody, and doesn't exist, right?

[Ivystar5]

Did you drop a hammer on your head?

No. And I am not the first person, who thought about that. But I didn't find any similar topic.

Also note, that "zero" is the default value. So, why sending the default value doesn't work? Shouldn't it be set to "1", instead of "0", if sending zero is blocked?

I was about referring you to that thread, if you had same question set straight but yours is something that sounds like (One professor in this forum that doesn't seems to be mentally alright), so I wondered if you want to ask Why is there a zero in the merit system as default but that the case. You made a total different theory relating this to bitcoin.

Anyways, PowerGlove already made it clear that, the code can't be left without a default and if the default is 1 you can mistakenly send merit to someone whom you don't want send to, so zero will only help you not to make the mistake and all you can do is erase the Zero or put the number after the zero - 01,05 not 50 10 when you intend sending 1 or 5

[Free Market Capitalist]

This thread is the biggest piece of bullshit I've seen on Meta since I joined the forum.

Did you drop a hammer on your head?

Yes he did.

I've reported this thread for zero value. Let's see if it's also marked as bad.

[LoyceV]

That's like saying: "this post is worth 0 Merit". Lol, I like it But it doesn't make sense: Merit isn't meant to make fun of shitposters, it's simply meant for good posts.

[Ruttoshi]

You don't need to compare bitcoin with the forum merit system because they have nothing in common. You can send 0.0x satoshi because one bitcoin is divisible to smaller unit. Is one merit divisible to smaller unit.. NO.

Imagine that instead of you to receive one merit, you were given zero merit, what is the usefulness of it. That shows that you are a low quality poster. However, the merit system was designed for every merited person to get 1/2 of it as his Smerits. If you get one merit, you get 0.5 Smerit which is not sendable and not visible.

[ertil]

I've reported this thread for zero value. Let's see if it's also marked as bad.

Then report also this post as well:

Another idea that I've been rolling around for a while now is to allow 0-merit sends. Sending someone "0" merits could be thought of as sending them a "like" (and, for example, instead of it displaying above a post as "LoyceV (0)", it could appear as "LoyceV (L)" or "LoyceV (+)", or something). I could see a "like system" based on 0-merit sends being very straightforward to implement (with maybe a one-click "+Like" button next to the "+Merit" button to make the whole thing feel more natural). I mean, that idea is worth pursuing all on its own, IMO, but, connecting it back to what we're talking about now: I wonder if the WO regulars would be very against the idea of their thread being made "like-only"? (If that's too heavy-handed, then maybe something that still allows for them to merit other regulars, but limits them to just 0-merit "likes" for new arrivals that haven't yet made 100 WO posts, or something. That way, WO regulars can form a substantial impression of someone before they dump actual merit on them. And, in the course of a merit-seeking spammer trying to cross that threshold, they'll hopefully end up on a few important ignore lists.)

As you can see, people hate this idea. But it also tells us something important: the same idea can be proposed by one person, and be merited, and repeated by someone else, and be perceived as stupid. So, if next time some people would wonder, why there are so many alt-accounts, then you should know why: sometimes, if the same thing is said by someone with a lower rank, and without a bigger context, the true reaction of the community can be discovered.

[Mia Chloe]

~snip

All I can see you basically doing here is trying to relate how the merit system works with how bitcoin and decentralization works but the fact remains they are totally different. There's no need relating them yeah you may try to map out some quite common features but it's just a coincidence.

If you are trying to crews this analogy then it's just a matter of time before you attribute zero merits to absence of UTXO which may seem anonymous to bitcoin but it doesn't add up.

[mindrust]

For the same reason why you can't send me zero bitcoins.

If you think sending zero merits should be possible, how about sending zero dollars?

Would you be able to send me zero anything if I asked from you?

If you can't answer "yes" then the answer is right there.

If you CAN answer yes, then I can suggest to you see a doctor asap. Summthin ain't clickin right there m8

[ertil]

For the same reason why you can't send me zero bitcoins.

Of course you can. Unless you think, that this transaction is invalid, and we should roll back, all the way to the block, where it became confirmed.

how about sending zero dollars?

Of course I sent bank transfers with zero amount. It is possible. And sometimes, you have to even pay for it.

Would you be able to send me zero anything if I asked from you?

Yes, give me your address, let's test it.

If you CAN answer yes, then I can suggest to you see a doctor asap. Summthin ain't clickin right there m8

I wonder, if you really think, that sending, and spending zero satoshi is invalid. Because it is valid, and it was valid, since 2009.

Edit: Let's see:

Code:

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{
  "txid": "2569bafd0a6bcaac0a438c71cb21e0f7d54e4fc0ea8a6764d4963bfa6219705c",
  "hash": "6db784c52ea3e59b059b12bd890f69d22906ded6c8549c63e584509f74a3dad3",
  "version": 2,
  "size": 222,
  "vsize": 141,
  "weight": 561,
  "locktime": 0,
  "vin": [
    {
      "txid": "b50c27a44bcb85bb4167db5dd137ea30f728939d0395d7fcefcd8b34a551fe66",
      "vout": 0,
      "scriptSig": {
        "asm": "",
        "hex": ""
      },
      "txinwitness": [
        "3044022071ff735600d134553f52b02d70639a01558b648e673a8a70eb19ee971ae920aa02201fb476d13f427209e60e2c7b74ff476cb35bb7da5c901ed90922bd29304560c801",
        "024db720bfa8e6987835fb21e48111950d8ae709709b4bce4d1624682beb24e282"
      ],
      "sequence": 4294967293
    }
  ],
  "vout": [
    {
      "value": 0.00048000,
      "n": 0,
      "scriptPubKey": {
        "asm": "0 dc949a09c98d057dbb96f45632b5e090f47b5ba3",
        "desc": "addr(bc1qmj2f5zwf35zhmwuk73tr9d0qjr68kkaryjc2x7)#m0qe46t7",
        "hex": "0014dc949a09c98d057dbb96f45632b5e090f47b5ba3",
        "address": "bc1qmj2f5zwf35zhmwuk73tr9d0qjr68kkaryjc2x7",
        "type": "witness_v0_keyhash"
      }
    },
    {
      "value": 0.00000000,
      "n": 1,
      "scriptPubKey": {
        "asm": "0 fee1c1162b02a8bce20219a7ef814cd70f33a402",
        "desc": "addr(bc1qlmsuz93tq25tecszrxn7lq2v6u8n8fqz0x3zvh)#uy9dj4pv",
        "hex": "0014fee1c1162b02a8bce20219a7ef814cd70f33a402",
        "address": "bc1qlmsuz93tq25tecszrxn7lq2v6u8n8fqz0x3zvh",
        "type": "witness_v0_keyhash"
      }
    }
  ]
}

[mindrust]

For the same reason why you can't send me zero bitcoins.

Of course you can. Unless you think, that this transaction is invalid, and we should roll back, all the way to the block, where it became confirmed.

Interesting.

Must be a bug. Don't worry about it it will patched with the next upgrade probably. Achow ot J-Lopp will correct it imo.

I ain't giving up on my case. Saying I want to send zero of sumthin is crazy. You can't convince me to otherwise go away meng. Lay down the pipe.

Call Gmaxwell or theymos or someone else with authority maybe they will give us a better explanation.