Using numbers, Roman Numerals to replace letters in seed phrase

[SquirrelJulietGarden]

In my opinion the best approach would be using an additional passphrase.[/b

That's good advice, but I would just like to point out that the passphrase should be unique and strong, and that it's not something you need to remember, but should be stored in a safe place separate from the seed. I think that's much simpler than figuring out some way to protect the seed in case it falls into the wrong hands, which can often result in a person forgetting how exactly they "encrypted" their seed after a long time.

A passphrase increases security of your wallet from a wallet mnemonic seed but by its importance, it must be stored safely like the wallet mnemonic seed. Losing a passphrase means losing access to that wallet and unable to recovery that wallet with only a wallet mnemonic seed backup.

https://learnmeabitcoin.com/beginners/security/#passphrase
https://github.com/bitcoinbook/bitcoinbook/blob/develop/ch05_wallets.adoc

Every passphrase (including not using a passphrase) will result in producing a seed for a BIP32 tree of keys, but they won’t be the same trees. Different passphrases will result in different keys. That can be a positive or a negative, depending on your perspective

[DYING_S0UL]

In my opinion the best approach would be using an additional passphrase.[/b

That's good advice, but I would just like to point out that the passphrase should be unique and strong, and that it's not something you need to remember, but should be stored in a safe place separate from the seed. I think that's much simpler than figuring out some way to protect the seed in case it falls into the wrong hands, which can often result in a person forgetting how exactly they "encrypted" their seed after a long time.

A passphrase increases security of your wallet from a wallet mnemonic seed but by its importance, it must be stored safely like the wallet mnemonic seed. Losing a passphrase means losing access to that wallet and unable to recovery that wallet with only a wallet mnemonic seed backup.

https://learnmeabitcoin.com/beginners/security/#passphrase
https://github.com/bitcoinbook/bitcoinbook/blob/develop/ch05_wallets.adoc

Every passphrase (including not using a passphrase) will result in producing a seed for a BIP32 tree of keys, but they won’t be the same trees. Different passphrases will result in different keys. That can be a positive or a negative, depending on your perspective

@Lucius, obviously I'm not gonna be using "abc" or "xyz" as my passphrase. It will be unique to everybody, and also have a meaning only understandable to me. But for the world it's just a plain meaningless word. As for storing it seperate, it's it more obviious? What's the point of keeping both keys to the locker at the same place?!LOL 

@SquirrelJulietGarden, first of all I don't have extensive knowledge on the extra passphase. So my question to you is that, what's the rules on creating one? Can it be anything, like "IloveIceCream"? Or do we have to choose from a specific wordlist?

[Ronsbit]

~~

It's not too difficult to decode. If anyone close to you saw the length you went through to conceal the message, they would know it must be a valuable piece of information, and they would decode it. IMO, write it down the traditional way, add a passphrase and store in separate locations. Even if the seedphrase gets exposed, your fund cannot be stolen.

What I believe here is that what you are not into, you will barely have idea about it so when it comes to things of that nature,  if people around there have no knowledge about what is called seed phrase, they can never be able to decode it that easily and it would give them tough time to ponder on it. The only people I think can figure it are people digitally inclined but it would take them a little time to ponder around it if they are not aware of this safety techniques used by Crypto enthusiasts.

[Cricktor]

...

The mnemonic passphrase can be anything, words, numbers, symbols, it's not necessarily only one word, can be any string of symbols. IIRC, it will be UTF-8 NFKD normalized, not sure about the exact rules for normalization, e.g. are multiple consecutive space characters combined into a single one? How about spaces at the beginning and/or end...

Never forget: the smallest error in the additional mnemonic passphrase gives you a totally different and empty wallet.

Document it thoroughly and keep multiple redundant copies at safe places (never together with the mnemonic recovery words or you loose the additional security the mnemonic passphrase can provide).

[Lucius]

@Lucius, obviously I'm not gonna be using "abc" or "xyz" as my passphrase. It will be unique to everybody, and also have a meaning only understandable to me. But for the world it's just a plain meaningless word. As for storing it seperate, it's it more obviious? What's the point of keeping both keys to the locker at the same place?!LOL 
~snip~

Given that we are on the B&H board and that many beginners are reading this, I think it is important to emphasize these things. People often do things without thinking at all, and when something bad happens they wonder how someone managed to hack them.

An acquaintance of mine uses the same simple password for everything, and even though I've advised him countless times that it's a very bad idea, he just keeps doing it. When you look at the data on the most frequently used passwords, you realize that it is very easy to hack millions of people who do not understand the risks they take when they use passwords like "1234" or anything similar.

[hd49728]

An acquaintance of mine uses the same simple password for everything, and even though I've advised him countless times that it's a very bad idea, he just keeps doing it. When you look at the data on the most frequently used passwords, you realize that it is very easy to hack millions of people who do not understand the risks they take when they use passwords like "1234" or anything similar.

People who don't know importance of strong passwords for security if their accounts must learn and change their practice as soon as possible before they lost access to their accounts and money.

There are reminders of weak passwords and guides on creating strong passwords.
[Guide] How to create a strong password.
Are your password in the green?
Some recommended password managers.

[nakamura12]

Encrypting your seed phrase is not a license or permission to expose it. You still need to keep them in a safe place, protected from the access of any unauthorised person. The advantage is that no matter how silly these processes might look, they at least add another level of security to your seed phrase.  It is better than keeping your seed phrase in its natural form, which could be identified at first glance by an intruder. OP's suggestions might look complicated and not provide absolute protection but someone would have to put an extra effort to decode them.

There's a way to make it more safer when using encryption which is to encrypt it using a software on a device that isn't connected to internet and it's purpose is only for backups and never to be connected to internet . I think that way is safe where the seed phrase is encrypted and safe from hacks and malwares compared to keeping it stored in a device that connected to the internet. Well, additional passphrase would even make it more secure.

[dkbit98]

I just thought one of the possible ways to store seed phrase that someone else wont quickly know it is seed phrase.  I think writing seed phrase with just letters makes it porous and which anyone who sees it will surely know what it is.

Don't do this!
This is a sure recipe to lose your back and all your coins, when inventing your own way for making a backup that is not standardized.
There are better ways for protecting your backup, starting from adding encryption, using multisig setuo, Slip39 or SecretShamirSharing, etc.
Interesting alternative is to use Satochip Seedkeeper cards that are great way for having portable, stealth and encrypted backup.

[Fiasem20]

Everyone has different method of storing their seed phrase safe.The idea of using numbers or roman numerals to replace letters isn't a good idea in my own perspective, because humans are bound to forget and are also bound to errors,so why not leave your seed phrase the way it is.Though if the numbers and Roman numerals format is working for you, it's not a bad idea to keep it on going.Seed phrase storage isn't a joke, it's a very crucial matter that needs to be dealt with caution, personally I prefer writing my seed phrase the way it is on materials like fireproof and waterproof metal plates and there must be in multiple copies in case of necessity.

[Ever-young]

Maybe difficult to detect, but not impossible, I mean it’ll only take one with a high IQ a few minutes or maybe hours to detect those numbers actually represents letters. In fact anyone can unmask this technique mate. So rather than having to go through these stress, there are several other better alternatives you could use secure your seed phrase. Some of those methods may have their lapses yeah but trust me, they’ll still go a longer way in ensuring your seed phrases are safe.

[tech30338]

I just thought one of the possible ways to store seed phrase that someone else wont quickly know it is seed phrase.  I think writing seed phrase with just letters makes it porous and which anyone who sees it will surely know what it is.

We have 26 alphabet;

A represent 1 or i, B represent 2 or ii, C represent 3 or iii, D represent 4 or iv.

I.e BREAD = 2 18 5 1 4
      BIRD    = 2 9 18 4

But the only disadvantage about this pattern, using roman numerals,  it is lengthy and i think it is also time consuming which you need to take your time to figure it out. But it is safer than leaving it letters if it gets expose.

Note: local languages is not exempted in writing seed phrase and password.

This is a great idea no doubt about that, for personal experiment this would be good, but if everyone will do this for sure 90% or more would forget and lost a lot of money, making things complicate is not a security measure but a disaster waiting to be unboxed, the seed phrase is already a security, and just need to have a little bit of tweaking for a person preferred, way to encrypt in an easy way for a person to get his money,  doing things complicate even more, this would be a good for testing but not recommended, but open for anyone to try, put 1 billion worth of bitcoin and try to experiment, that would not be a good idea, make things simple but secured.

[Kelward]

Why go through all this stress?

Just write your seed phrase the normal way. You can even engrave it on steel to prevent it from being wiped off or damaged by other hazards. Then, store it somewhere you know is safe and where nobody is ever going to notice or think of searching for it.

Most importantly, keep your crypto life private. Don’t go around telling people that you’re involved in crypto. If you don’t tell anyone, the chances of someone finding out and demanding your seed phrase will be very low, meaning you won’t have to go through any extra stress to keep your keys safe.

Why go through all the stress indeed, I don't see any need to change your seed phrase from letters into numbers, a smart and intelligent thief will figure it out and steal your coins. If you hide your seed phrase in different secured locations it wouldn't matter if the keys are in words or number forms, none authorized person's should have access to it, that is the main focus. Not recommendable to be too cryptic when changing your seed phrase from letters to something else because you might forget how you encrypted it. Also it is safe to keep your crypto information to yourself, if you don't make it public nobody will plan to steal your seed phrase so the total security of your crypto assets are in your hands unless you want to entrust that responsibility to a CEX which is equally not recommendable.

[Y3shot]

Maybe difficult to detect, but not impossible, I mean it’ll only take one with a high IQ a few minutes or maybe hours to detect those numbers actually represents letters. In fact anyone can unmask this technique mate. So rather than having to go through these stress, there are several other better alternatives you could use secure your seed phrase. Some of those methods may have their lapses yeah but trust me, they’ll still go a longer way in ensuring your seed phrases are safe.

My advice for anyone, whatever method you want to use make sure it is something that you won't get confused about it whenever you will need them back. If it is a method that will get you confused later on no need to stress yourself. The seedphrase is very sensitive details that one needs to handle very well because any mistakes can lead to something that you may not be able to recover back again. The most important thing about the seedphrase is how and where you keep it that no one can get to it , and not even the method. If it is safe where it is stored that means their is no need for any method.

[hd49728]

My advice for anyone, whatever method you want to use make sure it is something that you won't get confused about it whenever you will need them back. If it is a method that will get you confused later on no need to stress yourself. The seedphrase is very sensitive details that one needs to handle very well because any mistakes can lead to something that you may not be able to recover back again. The most important thing about the seedphrase is how and where you keep it that no one can get to it , and not even the method. If it is safe where it is stored that means their is no need for any method.

You must use very popular backup methods so that if you have problems, you can use wallet recovery tools for finding the missing piece in your remaining backups. If you created and used your own backup method, which is unique, you will not be able to ask for help from anyone or any service later.

How to backup a seed phrase?
Let's see some biggest threats with your backups.

But what do we need to worry about protecting the backups themselves against?

Loss due to destruction
Loss due to complexity / not being able to restore from backup
Loss to an attacker

Loss de to complexity / not being able to restore from backup is very likely your problems if you create your own methods.

[Moreno233]

This is not difficult to decode if you ask me because every smart thief can easily know that it is seed phrase because of the way the numbers will be arranged. Although it may not strike to someone easily but a little look at the numbers will easily unveil what they represent. You may even have a problem translating the letters to number and arranging them in order, it is very much possible to make mistake. I will not buy this idea instead I prefer to safe it in a paper and protect very well from unauthorized person.

[Yablee0]

I just thought one of the possible ways to store seed phrase that someone else wont quickly know it is seed phrase.  I think writing seed phrase with just letters makes it porous and which anyone who sees it will surely know what it is.

It is not actually a bad idea anyway because the rate in which the scammers are operating one needs to go extra lengths in save guarding his or her assets from being tempered with, because the bad guys out there wouldn't take it kindly with you if given the opportunity to strike.

 However, using the Roman figure as a seed phrase is some how complicating, and very confusing, if you as the rightful owner of that wallet is not careful you will end up forgetting what you installed by yourself, but in my opinion it's cool because it's not that easy to manipulate.