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Author Topic: [BCN] Uncovering CryptoNote technology and Bytecoin BCN FAQ  (Read 13753 times)
Cheesus
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April 15, 2014, 08:34:15 AM
 #21

Thanks! I was inspecting source code for a while now. It's a little hardcore for a guy who never been involved in programming lol Smiley. But it's okay - logic is virtue Smiley

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Denni
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April 15, 2014, 11:22:40 AM
 #22

Code:
2. A megabyte of internal memory is an almost unacceptable size for a modern ASIC pipeline;

Does it really? If we assume that scrypt-ASIC era is not far from now maybe 1mb of internal memory is not too. Questionable ASIC resistance.

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April 15, 2014, 12:17:26 PM
 #23

Still no new puzzles ? Sad
tromp
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April 15, 2014, 12:52:21 PM
 #24

Code:
2. A megabyte of internal memory is an almost unacceptable size for a modern ASIC pipeline;

Does it really? If we assume that scrypt-ASIC era is not far from now maybe 1mb of internal memory is not too. Questionable ASIC resistance.

If Intel can put 37.5MB of cache on a Xeon,
or more than 1MB on a cheap Celeron,
then 1MB can hardly be called "almost unacceptable".
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April 15, 2014, 01:47:23 PM
 #25

Code:
2. A megabyte of internal memory is an almost unacceptable size for a modern ASIC pipeline;

Does it really? If we assume that scrypt-ASIC era is not far from now maybe 1mb of internal memory is not too. Questionable ASIC resistance.

If Intel can put 37.5MB of cache on a Xeon,
or more than 1MB on a cheap Celeron,
then 1MB can hardly be called "almost unacceptable".


As far as I know cache is the most expensive part of the CPU. (correct me if I'm wrong) So even 1mb increase of cache is $$$. And ASIC developers are not wealthy enough to cover this expenses.

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tromp
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April 15, 2014, 01:58:25 PM
 #26

Code:
2. A megabyte of internal memory is an almost unacceptable size for a modern ASIC pipeline;

Does it really? If we assume that scrypt-ASIC era is not far from now maybe 1mb of internal memory is not too. Questionable ASIC resistance.

If Intel can put 37.5MB of cache on a Xeon,
or more than 1MB on a cheap Celeron,
then 1MB can hardly be called "almost unacceptable".


As far as I know cache is the most expensive part of the CPU. (correct me if I'm wrong) So even 1mb increase of cache is $$$. And ASIC developers are not wealthy enough to cover this expenses.

There is no "most expensive part of the CPU". Cost is dominated by die size and fault rate.
It's true that 37.5MB takes a lot of die space, so that certainly contributes to cost.

Arguing for ASIC-resistance due to perceived high cost of 1MB is silly though.
(gridseed LTC ASICs already have 512MB on board)
The original claim doesn't even mention cost. It should elaborate on what they
mean by ASIC pipeline though, as that has me confused...
Cheesus
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April 15, 2014, 02:34:44 PM
 #27

Code:
2. A megabyte of internal memory is an almost unacceptable size for a modern ASIC pipeline;

Does it really? If we assume that scrypt-ASIC era is not far from now maybe 1mb of internal memory is not too. Questionable ASIC resistance.

If Intel can put 37.5MB of cache on a Xeon,
or more than 1MB on a cheap Celeron,
then 1MB can hardly be called "almost unacceptable".


As far as I know cache is the most expensive part of the CPU. (correct me if I'm wrong) So even 1mb increase of cache is $$$. And ASIC developers are not wealthy enough to cover this expenses.

There is no "most expensive part of the CPU". Cost is dominated by die size and fault rate.
It's true that 37.5MB takes a lot of die space, so that certainly contributes to cost.

Arguing for ASIC-resistance due to perceived high cost of 1MB is silly though.
(gridseed LTC ASICs already have 512MB on board)
The original claim doesn't even mention cost. It should elaborate on what they
mean by ASIC pipeline though, as that has me confused...

Did gridseed announce the cost of this ASIC?

Also, will CPU get bigger (in physical size) in order to have 512MB cache on board?

Sorry for annoying you, I really don't know much about it. Curiousity Smiley

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imready2rock
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April 15, 2014, 03:15:07 PM
 #28

yo ppl!

All this secrecy is giving me a headache seriously... All deepweb projects are so subtle ?

The only thing I heard about the deepweb (from my newbie-Bitcoin shore Smiley) is Silkroad. And it wasn't secret and subtle like, at all.

not a long time ago there was a thread on bitcointalk about the deepweb and it's wiki, you can try to find it.

you'll be amazed what you can find there Wink

Well you were right. I was amazed. But not in a good way. Now I understand why people hide it.

tromp
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April 15, 2014, 03:42:29 PM
 #29

Arguing for ASIC-resistance due to perceived high cost of 1MB is silly though.
(gridseed LTC ASICs already have 512MB on board)
The original claim doesn't even mention cost. It should elaborate on what they
mean by ASIC pipeline though, as that has me confused...

Did gridseed announce the cost of this ASIC?

Also, will CPU get bigger (in physical size) in order to have 512MB cache on board?

Sorry for annoying you, I really don't know much about it. Curiousity Smiley

Sorry; I meant 512KB, not MB:)

512KB cache is very modest for a modern CPU, but could be a large fraction
of a scrypt ASIC.
smooth
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April 15, 2014, 06:41:16 PM
 #30

There is no "most expensive part of the CPU". Cost is dominated by die size and fault rate.
It's true that 37.5MB takes a lot of die space, so that certainly contributes to cost.

Cache is by far the largest part of the die of any modern CPU. I don't know how that contributes to failure rate though, since individual bad cache cells might not render the die unusable.

tromp
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April 15, 2014, 06:58:08 PM
 #31

Cache is by far the largest part of the die of any modern CPU.

Not by far. Cache area is usually close in size to Core area.
smooth
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April 15, 2014, 07:03:30 PM
 #32

Cache is by far the largest part of the die of any modern CPU.

Not by far. Cache area is usually close in size to Core area.

Yes I see that is the case. Thank you for the correction. My understanding was out of date or just wrong.
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April 16, 2014, 09:34:56 AM
 #33

Arguing for ASIC-resistance due to perceived high cost of 1MB is silly though.
(gridseed LTC ASICs already have 512MB on board)
The original claim doesn't even mention cost. It should elaborate on what they
mean by ASIC pipeline though, as that has me confused...

Did gridseed announce the cost of this ASIC?

Also, will CPU get bigger (in physical size) in order to have 512MB cache on board?

Sorry for annoying you, I really don't know much about it. Curiousity Smiley

Sorry; I meant 512KB, not MB:)

512KB cache is very modest for a modern CPU, but could be a large fraction
of a scrypt ASIC.

Oh. Okay then. 512KB is nothing for the Bytecoin according to your calculations.

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Denni
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April 16, 2014, 12:39:50 PM
 #34

Quote

Oh. Okay then. 512KB is nothing for the Bytecoin according to your calculations.


512KB is nothing in general now days. Not only for Bytecoin - there is no CPU with this amount of memory.

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April 16, 2014, 12:45:41 PM
 #35

Do you wonder why people who develop things like BCN or CN are staying in the shadows? It's not like it's not legal or something...
Cheesus
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April 16, 2014, 12:56:31 PM
 #36

Do you wonder why people who develop things like BCN or CN are staying in the shadows? It's not like it's not legal or something...

Maybe they are afraid of getting CIA'd since, clearly, they are smart. Plus not everyone is looking for a fame, even if it's a fame amongst small amount of people.

I think you must have special mindset for this kind of things - not everyone can develop something new. And probably this particular mindset is not looking for a fame. Wink

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April 16, 2014, 01:06:07 PM
 #37

Do you wonder why people who develop things like BCN or CN are staying in the shadows? It's not like it's not legal or something...

Maybe they are afraid of getting CIA'd since, clearly, they are smart. Plus not everyone is looking for a fame, even if it's a fame amongst small amount of people.

I think you must have special mindset for this kind of things - not everyone can develop something new. And probably this particular mindset is not looking for a fame. Wink

Maybe but it's not like CIA is eating developers for breakfast/dinner/etc. they are paying salaries and not a small ones I imagine. So this is still a mystery for me. That's not a logic thing to do.
tromp
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April 16, 2014, 02:16:24 PM
 #38

Arguing for ASIC-resistance due to perceived high cost of 1MB is silly though.
(gridseed LTC ASICs already have 512KB on board)
The original claim doesn't even mention cost. It should elaborate on what they
mean by ASIC pipeline though, as that has me confused...

There is something to be said for a cache-oriented proof-of-work though,
of which there are not many examples. There are several concerns:

1) Cache sizes slowly grow over time (Moore's law). Currently, high-end x86 has 2.5MB / core.
   The proof-of-work should use as much of this as possible.
   You want each core running its own instance while fully utilizing its cache.
   Ideally, the dynamic difficulty adjustment should be able to increase the memory requirement,
   so as to keep up with hardware improvements.

2) There must be no easy memory-time trade-off (like scrypt has).
   Memory accesses must be dependent on earlier ones, so that must necessarily be done
   in  sequential order. Otherwise, a GPU/FPGA/ASIC will gain a lot from increased parallellism.

3) The amount of computation per memory access must be minimized in order for the core
    to have a very high frequency of (cache) memory accesses. The point is that ASICs can
    always do computation much faster, but they cannot do random memory access much faster.

If you get these things right; then a GPU will not be competitive.
Certainly, CryptoNight is an improvement on scrypt on all 3 counts above
(for item 3, mostly due to its smaller block size, 16 bytes vs 128 bytes).


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April 16, 2014, 03:18:49 PM
 #39

I don't see why anonymity needs to be attributed to illegality or shadiness. It's clearly a choice that was made, and should probably be respected.

You shouldn't need a face to promote this, and it's pretty well documented that you don't need one to get a 5 billion market cap.

Sure bitcoin has a visible core team now, but that's not how it started.

Someone provided something great, and it was accepted. The reason for this is because it's open source, and because it had something potentially world-changing to offer.

It wasn't accepted because I can sit around and think about what a great man Satoshi Nakamoto is, but instead what was provided by someone who's still not known until this day . . because for all I know Satoshi was just the name given so that people would stop asking questions.

If one was to try to take an unbiased, unadulterated approach to something that could very well perform on par with bitcoin . . then an approachable personal identity would only serve to get in the way of that.



Good reasons. I agree.
I personally prefer Hy-quolity products whoever developed by.
Fame can execute several tasks but it's just a tool nevertheless.
Our conversation as not such invention like bra with detectors of affection, it's about new currency. Cheap boom is unnecessarily thing for this. 
smooth
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April 16, 2014, 07:24:57 PM
 #40

1) Cache sizes slowly grow over time (Moore's law). Currently, high-end x86 has 2.5MB / core.
   The proof-of-work should use as much of this as possible.
   You want each core running its own instance while fully utilizing its cache.
   Ideally, the dynamic difficulty adjustment should be able to increase the memory requirement,
   so as to keep up with hardware improvements.

It's interesting though. RAM is not that much slower than L3 cache,* and in fact this algorithm runs faster with two instances per core (with hyperthreading), suggesting that cache doesn't really matter here.

* RAM = 60 cycles, L3 unshared - 40 cycles. See page 22 at https://software.intel.com/sites/products/collateral/hpc/vtune/performance_analysis_guide.pdf
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