Issue concerning trust or positive feedback.

[Btcdeybodi]

OP let's discuss ''trust'' generally outside the forum or in real life, do you trust people based on the fact that you have done business with them? NO right? trust is something that in inbuilt. You joined this forum in 2024 according to your registration date, it's almost 2 years, can you tell me that you haven't seen someone in the forum who by your own feelings you think that person can be trusted without it being influenced by others judgment? trust is a personal assessment, it doesn't necessarily mean you must do a business with a user before it prompts you to trust them.

If everyone wanted to do business with one another before giving positive feedbacks or including someone in their trust list, believe me that those features would have been useless because not many people came to the forum to do business with anyone. However, giving positive trust or including a user in the trust system is not only made for members in the DT network, you can also give positive feedbacks to those who you trust in the forum. The only difference between you and a DT member is that their feedback is visible by default whereas yours will not be visible since you have not been included in the DT network but any day you're included, yours will become visible by default too.

[TokenTikas]

For me trusting or giving positive feedback to someone you have not had financial deals with is wrong and when you do that especially as a DT member, you are simply leading those that trust your judgement in danger.

You have talked about an important matter because when I see the positive feedback on some accounts, I usually try to check the references to understand the reason why the positive response was given. In some cases, there are references provided and those can be viewed but there are many positive feedbacks where no reference is available, so nothing can be understood about why the response was given or what it was based on.

However, it is wrong to trust someone and give positive feedback when no transaction has taken place and you said that correctly, because if a financial transaction is successfully completed then giving positive feedback makes sense, but if no transaction happened, the positive feedback becomes baseless. DT members are very careful in this forum and they always stay active, and before giving positive feedback to anyone, they observe many things, verify the facts, then share their response and in this aspect DT members are currently far ahead.

[Stalker22]

~
You can’t believe someone is a scammer and give them negative feedback without evidence, and same thing should go with trust or positive feedback, believing someone is trustworthy without evidence of successful deals is dangerous to the community.

And thats just your opinion, which you are certainly entitled to, but thats not how things work and how it actually is in real life.  Whether you want to admit it or not, Im pretty sure you know a lot of people you trust and can vouch for even though you havent had any financial transactions with them.  Its the same thing here.

[TypoTonic]

And the DT members are like law enforcement officers in this forum that people trust, before trusting someone you must have had a financial deals with them or know them for a long period of time.

Successful trades aren't the only measure of trustworthiness. By your own logic, how can people trust DT members if they haven't made deals with them?

-snip- believing someone is trustworthy without evidence of successful deals is dangerous to the community.

In terms of leaving trust feedback, this was included in the initial guidelines:

- It's OK to post a rating about the person in general, not tied to a specific trade.

When trust flags were introduced to address different goals (for warning newbies and deterring scams), the description for trust feedbacks were changed. Reference links are optional BTW.



As shared in an earlier reply:

You should give these ratings for anything which you think would impact someone's willingness to trade with the person, but you should not use trust ratings to attack a person's opinions

The guide LoyceV made was based on existing guidelines, and theymos seems to be OK with it.

- Leave positive ratings if you actively think that trading with this person is safer than with a random person.
- Leave negative ratings if you actively think that trading with the person is less safe than with a random person.

At the end of the day, you're still the one to decide who you trust and make deals with in this forum. No one else is responsible for that, certainly not DT members. Quoting myself from the original thread:

And for the DT members if you are giving trust to someone, make sure the member is trustworthy because if they are involved in scamming newbies here, and the newbie says he believed the member was trustworthy because of the trust you gave the member, you too will be held accountable to some extent.

It's only their 'feedback' about the user. It doesn't guarantee that the person won't scam you, it's meant to help you determine whether that person seem trustworthy or not before dealing with them. You'll never know a person's true intention, so you still need to use your own judgement. Trust ratings can easily be deleted and replaced accordingly.

[The Cryptovator]

Now in the issue of trust, how is it possible you can trust someone you have not done deals with. For example you are trusting or giving someone positive feedback on being trustworthy with financial deals, meanwhile you have not done any financial deals with that person, you just decide to trust him because you believe he or she can be trustworthy.
For me trusting or giving positive feedback to someone you have not had financial deals with is wrong and when you do that especially as a DT member, you are simply leading those that trust your judgement in danger.

So I shouldn't trust theymos? Can't leave positive feedback for him, although we can't trust him with our privacy, like sharing emails, IP addresses, etc. Just hadn't dealt financially – shouldn't we trust him? It's just an example; there are a lot of users we can trust. Because trust hasn't been built in a single day, it's not like today you joined the forum and DT members left you positive feedback.

If you haven't dealt with it, then don't write about financial deals. If someone is actively exposing scams and cheaters to help the forum, then you can write the same on the feedback. It isn't necessary to write about financial deals; people could be trusted for many reasons. Just not for trading. I would trust LoyceV with my personal data, but I can't trust you. He will protect my privacy and personal information; it's my faith, but I won't trust you this way.

[LoyceV]

I would trust LoyceV with my personal data, but I can't trust you.

That's easy: I don't want it But you wouldn't even be the first:

You don't need to send me your IP-address or real name. I can't believe I have to add this: DO NOT send me a picture of a passport!

[DubemIfedigbo001]

Trust must not be a product of direct dealing with a user, I can be comfortable to have a deal with you because someone I respect their judgement trusts you, but I'll want some evidence before writing my own feedback for you. Same reason I could avoid dealing with a user of it's only someone that I don't trust their judgement that trusts the user.

I still believe people's behavior pattern should earn them your trust or distrust accordingly, trust too isn't permanent, you can trust someone today and tomorrow if they don't measure up to your standard, you can still distrust them.

[rat03gopoh]

And the DT members are like law enforcement officers in this forum that people trust, before trusting someone you must have had a financial deals with them or know them for a long period of time.

I'd love to hear your thoughts on the feedback this member received: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=trust;u=35 & https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=trust;u=3
If you don't trust them, that's just idealism. After all, no one ever said that a positive trust score eliminates all future risks. This is a pseudo-forum, don't put even 90% trust in anyone.

[adultcrypto]

I created a thread in Beginners & Help board and in one of my argument or reply to someone I said these.

Before trusting a member you need to really know him and run business with him for long time.

Trusting an individual depends on a lot of factors and doing business with the person for a long time is not the only answer. There is a type of role someone will play in a single business transaction that can can automatically earn the person my trust. I will keep trusting the person until I see a reason not to and the forum made provision for a situation to remove someone from your trust list.

And a member replied me with what LoyceV said which is.

• If you believe someone can be trusted, even when you didn't trade with him, that too deserves positive feedback.

Now in the issue of trust, how is it possible you can trust someone you have not done deals with. For example you are trusting or giving someone positive feedback on being trustworthy with financial deals, meanwhile you have not done any financial deals with that person, you just decide to trust him because you believe he or she can be trustworthy.
For me trusting or giving positive feedback to someone you have not had financial deals with is wrong and when you do that especially as a DT member, you are simply leading those that trust your judgement in danger.

If I trust user A and same user A trust user B, by simple law of mathematics, I can trust user B because of the trust of user A. I know this may not always be the case but there are times I can trust someone based on what another person that I hold in high esteem have to say about them. In other words, I can trust someone base on their behavior or performance in business dealing with others. This is just how I view it and it also agrees with LoyceV's view on the matter. 

[Zoomic]

And the DT members are like law enforcement officers in this forum that people trust, before trusting someone you must have had a financial deals with them or know them for a long period of time.

I'd love to hear your thoughts on the feedback this member received: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=trust;u=35 & https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=trust;u=3
If you don't trust them, that's just idealism. After all, no one ever said that a positive trust score eliminates all future risks. This is a pseudo-forum, don't put even 90% trust in anyone.

Some of the feedbacks on theymos profile are just funny. One read thus; "it's theymos". Like as if the profile didn't show that it is theymos. I also observed that many of the feedbacks on both theymos and Satoshi's profile doesn't have references. So, this means that Op should not take these feedback thing so seriously. It is just a forum with negative, neutral and positive feedbacks. If those feedbacks to exist, one must give them and another must receive them.


This reminds me to go give Satoshi a positive feedback for creating bitcoin. I mean satoshi should have endless positive feedbacks.

[SmartGold01]

It's your duty to know whom you should be trusting.. however if you must trust person i would assumed that you have already initiated a business with that person few times or maybe are in a particular group with that person which involves financial dealing or to something that would warrant them given trust to each other. Otherwise, giving to someone without a proper verification is somewhat misleading people who are to trade with them lately.

[LoyceV]

This reminds me to go give Satoshi a positive feedback for creating bitcoin. I mean satoshi should have endless positive feedbacks.

I do think he's unlikely to scam anyone, but trusting someone for creating a trustless payment system seems a bit ironic I get it though, it's basically a "thank you for creating Bitcoin"

[dkbit98]

Now in the issue of trust, how is it possible you can trust someone you have not done deals with.

It's the same as in real life, people can trust each other even if they never had any financial transaction or a deal.
But trust is not a fixed thing and it can be broken, so if I trust someone now that doesn't mean it's going to last forever.
In bitcointalk forum I also trusted people who helped me in some way, or I trust them based on their history and activity.

[Lida93]

You don't necessarily need to have a financial deal with a user before giving positive feedback. And what loyceV said in the comment is absolutely correct. If you feel a user is worthy of positive feedback then give the user a positive feedback, just same way you feel a user deserve a negative feedback for scamming or for loan defaulting even without you being the victim.

It's different when you give a user a negative feedback for scamming to when you give same negative feedback for just thinking that they may be scam. The first instance is quite logical than the second.

Trusting someone by guts feeling isn't enough to ascertain that such user is trust deserving. A positive trust feedback given base on financial deeds or any type of dealings can't be compared to the confidence that would be involved when another user understands that it's just a trust given out of guts.  If you really want to know the real character of a person and to test their integrity, involve money to it not guts feeling.

[LoyceV]

Trusting someone by guts feeling isn't enough to ascertain that such user is trust deserving. A positive trust feedback given base on financial deeds or any type of dealings can't be compared to the confidence that would be involved when another user understands that it's just a trust given out of guts.

I trust my guts over any Newbie who received 2 positive DT-feedbacks after buying a collectible coin through an escrow. I've seen this happen many times: the escrow (who earned from it) and the seller both left positive feedback, while both of them didn't risk anything.

[m2017]

The way they conduct themselves here on the forum can say a lot about a persons morals and integrity. You're not going to decide to trust someone over reading 1 or 2 posts, but when you start noticing how a user handles themselves here over a decent period of time, you might consider thinking they deserve to be on your list.

But this forum is full of users who had a positive reputation (and behaved appropriately) for a long time, but at some point, they ruined everything. So, their moral character and integrity suddenly changed course?

Which demonstrates that trust comes with risks (even with those who seem trustworthy).

Trust is built long and hard, but it is also lost very easily.

[lovesmayfamilis]

Trusting someone by guts feeling isn't enough to ascertain that such user is trust deserving. A positive trust feedback given base on financial deeds or any type of dealings can't be compared to the confidence that would be involved when another user understands that it's just a trust given out of guts.  If you really want to know the real character of a person and to test their integrity, involve money to it not guts feeling.

Similarly, the forum is full of people who have previously taken out loans, only so that in the future you can get a positive tag from the lender. It is not so popular now because many cases of abuse of such behavior have been discovered. People took out a small loan, returned it, received positive feedback, and then a loan for a larger amount ended in non-payment. Where do you see the trust in this? On the Internet, any situation can be manipulated and abused; we can only trust, relying on our intuition, and berate ourselves when we make mistakes in it. Again, you will be healthier if all financial matters are conducted offline directly in person with the person.

as an example:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=251328
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=1605387