[NEWS]NewYork Suing Valve for for promoting "illegal gambling" Inside their game

[Ronsbit]

Maybe Valve should call them to a round table dialogue and clear the mess, because what I just saw there is just a group that wants some bills to be paid. Maybe they want to take taxes for that purpose, since it seems they feel Valve is making some money through the lootboxes. Maybe that could calm the already tense situation, heated by the government council.

[tread93]

First, what do you guys think about lootboxes inside a game? Do you think it's gambling or not?

New York is suing Valve for its lootboxes inside its games. The article is saying that New York is arguing that Valve is promoting illegal gambling practices with its lootboxes and wants them to stop/remove it in their game.

For those who don't know, there have been debates for years about lootboxes or Gacha being a form of gambling, there were even petitions years ago demanding that lootboxes and gacha be removed from inside the games, as kids are being exposed and getting addicted to it.

Link to the article: https://www.xda-developers.com/new-york-is-suing-valve-calling-its-lootbox-systems-quintessential-gambling/

Woah, honeslty I feel like there is some merit there. As we learned from my professor friend, gambling and games go hand in hand and honestly that is the foothold into the youth to get them hooked. Gaming can light up a path for gambling in the future by getting some ridiculous neurological wiring in place than can pretty much make it almost feel familiar when they become of age to actualy gamble and by then perhaps they could even be more at risk to become an addicted gambler eventually.

[Darker45]

This is a form of gambling, but that's stretching the definition of gambling to include stuff that aren't money but could be assigned with monetary value.

But if the goal is to prevent the kids from learning about gambling early on, I guess they have an argument. Skin gambling is happening, rampant even. When I was playing Dota II, my friends were fond of betting their arcana or immortal skins. Although this isn't the typical adult gambling that kids aren't allowed, since these items could easily be sold for real money, it could still be considered gambling. And, yeah, should be removed.

[alegotardo]

First, what do you guys think about lootboxes inside a game? Do you think it's gambling or not?

New York is suing Valve for its lootboxes inside its games. The article is saying that New York is arguing that Valve is promoting illegal gambling practices with its lootboxes and wants them to stop/remove it in their game.

This is ridiculous.
In my opinion, this should never be considered gambling, firstly because the reward is not paid in money, and secondly because this is part of a game that clearly aims at entertainment and not profit... something quite different from the purpose that many people have with casino games and similar sites.

In short, I think Valve needs to appeal and not accept this imposition, otherwise this will set a precedent for other even more absurd decisions, and soon anything treated as a "random reward" will be treated as gambling, even if it does not directly involve money.

In short, I think this is absurd!

[GreatArkansas]

First, what do you guys think about lootboxes inside a game? Do you think it's gambling or not?

New York is suing Valve for its lootboxes inside its games. The article is saying that New York is arguing that Valve is promoting illegal gambling practices with its lootboxes and wants them to stop/remove it in their game.

This is ridiculous.
In my opinion, this should never be considered gambling, firstly because the reward is not paid in money, and secondly because this is part of a game that clearly aims at entertainment and not profit... something quite different from the purpose that many people have with casino games and similar sites.

In short, I think Valve needs to appeal and not accept this imposition, otherwise this will set a precedent for other even more absurd decisions, and soon anything treated as a "random reward" will be treated as gambling, even if it does not directly involve money.

In short, I think this is absurd!

Hahaha, yeah, because this kind of feature exists in most of the games right now, even non-Valve games. I am even curious if they will win this case against Valve. This does not make sense at all.
If this is really proven as gambling, then a lot of games will get sued. Like this is how these developers get rewarded, but some are also greedy, but that's not the case here.

[Oasisman]

This is a form of gambling, but that's stretching the definition of gambling to include stuff that aren't money but could be assigned with monetary value.

But if the goal is to prevent the kids from learning about gambling early on, I guess they have an argument. Skin gambling is happening, rampant even. When I was playing Dota II, my friends were fond of betting their arcana or immortal skins. Although this isn't the typical adult gambling that kids aren't allowed, since these items could easily be sold for real money, it could still be considered gambling. And, yeah, should be removed.

Exactly!
I don't know how is it an "illegal" gambling when it is part of the game. I may agree that it is a form of gambling, since players will need to pay to get random stuff. If being lucky, they'll get stuff which could have a great monetary value when being sold to other players P2P, or could be used to improve the character's appearance or attributes.
So, If they considered this as illegal gambling, then I don't know how they call that in-game betting system Dota2 used to, when there's a major tournaments. Those arcana and immortal skins were expensive before. I have not played the game for quite a long time already, so I'm not sure whether it still exist.

[FinneysTrueVision]

Lootboxes and gacha mechanics do not meet the definition of gambling in my opinion. This is something that has been around for a very long time and is allowed in most places. Most games do not allow you to transfer your items to other players and it can’t be argued that you are gambling for something of real world value.

The lawsuit against Valve is more narrowly focused on games where you can monetize your items through various marketplaces. It still seems like an overreach to me. You still have to jump through some hoops to be able to sell items for real currency. Not many people would argue that opening a Pokemon card pack and getting a rare card that you then resell for a lot more than what it originally cost you is gambling.

[Easteregg69]

Soeh. "Your country" again. It's New York this time.

Fallout 76 had seasonal update today. New season is on.

[OgNasty]

I read about this lawsuit and it seems like it will have pretty far reaching consequences depending on the outcome. I imagine many others are guilty of this practice if it is against the law. I’ve seen online pack openings using a similar method that results in it just being gambling in the end.

[viljy]

Loot boxes are a form of gambling, and more specifically, they are a form of lottery (lottery is a gambling game), so there is no foundation at all to challenge this. But of course, if you hire expensive lawyers and engage in casuistry, then theoretically you can prove that black is white. It seems to me that this time Valve will have to pay at least a very large fine, because that is the purpose of this lawsuit.

[m2017]

First, what do you guys think about lootboxes inside a game? Do you think it's gambling or not?

First, we need to define gambling. Let's turn to Wikipedia for help:

"Gambling (also known as betting or gaming) is the wagering of something of value ("the stakes") on a random event with the intent of winning something else of value, where instances of strategy are discounted ".

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gambling

If we consider the contents of loot boxes as "something valuable", then loot boxes fall under the definition of gambling.

New York is suing Valve for its lootboxes inside its games. The article is saying that New York is arguing that Valve is promoting illegal gambling practices with its lootboxes and wants them to stop/remove it in their game.

If New York sued, there must be a law in that state classifying loot boxes as gambling.

For those who don't know, there have been debates for years about lootboxes or Gacha being a form of gambling, there were even petitions years ago demanding that lootboxes and gacha be removed from inside the games, as kids are being exposed and getting addicted to it.

Honestly, I personally find it difficult to properly classify loot boxes. They're more like childish gambling than full-fledged gambling, as there's no cash prize, but there are still some gambling elements.

What do you think about this: some food manufacturers randomly add toy figurines to their packaging. For example, in a box of cornflakes. Isn't that also a loot box, and therefore, according to New York, gambling? Why don't they sue such manufacturers?

[TopTort777]

I don’t consider it as gambling since the rewards is an in-game item which just happened to have a value set by the players who is willing to pay for that item due to its rarity.

This is same when buying pokemon cards booster park which collectors doesn’t know what inside and can sell rare cards in the open market.

If lootboxes categorize already as gambling then all gatcha type game that has real fiat value will fall to that same category.

How familiar are you with cs2 lootboxes? Do you know that these in-game weapon skins can be traded for real money directly on steam platform. Then you can use those money to buy other games serial key as a gift, and trade it outside steam platform. I have seen sites where you can bet your skins on wheel against other user skins. The mechanics that you first need to buy cs2 weapon case, then a key to it, then run wheel to get random skin - isnt that gambling? Money = check, fact of random prize = check, spinning wheel = check.

I’m a CS:GO & CS2 player but not a professional player so I know exactly how lootboxes and I clearly mentioned that it has real value.

My point is it’s not a direct money bet rather user is purchasing lootboxes that contains item that has fiat value on it if they sell.

There’s lootboxes type of gambling game now that directly reward the fiat equivalent rather the item and that’s the type of lootboxes I consider gambling since the intent is to just win money.

Anyway, we will different interpretations here whether it’s gambling or not depending on our perspective about gambling. For me it’s just a game like Pay2Earn.

For me these cs2 lootboxes are gambling. I saw guys who were not even game players, but they buy those boxes and keys in bulk, open them with hope to get rare drop for sale. It would be different if they only wanted to show off in game with rare weapon skins, but it is totally gambling because they risk money to get more money.

cs2 is not the only game with lootboxes-gambling. There is such a game as Banana. All you have to do is to click and get bananas, but randomly you can get a banana that could be traded on a market. What makes this game look like gambling are purchases that give you capsule with random banana which boost your banana drop. That is top of greed and stupidity. Clicker with elements of gambling.

[maydna]

If kids don't get the prizes they want, they will curious and will buy other chances. That makes them addicted to it and they can do anything chasing it.

From offline and online games, kids are susceptible becoming addicted to the games. If this case succeed, there will be another games that almost similar with the Valve so it should needs responsibility from parents to monitor their kids.

[Baseplate]

First, what do you guys think about lootboxes inside a game? Do you think it's gambling or not?

First, we need to define gambling. Let's turn to Wikipedia for help:

"Gambling (also known as betting or gaming) is the wagering of something of value ("the stakes") on a random event with the intent of winning something else of value, where instances of strategy are discounted ".

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gambling

If we consider the contents of loot boxes as "something valuable", then loot boxes fall under the definition of gambling.

Then the question becomes, what "stakes" are you wagering as you open the lootboxes? Lootboxes drop in-game for free, and the only payment you need to make is buying a key to open said case (which isn't even necessary, as you can trade with other users to acquire these keys).

Traditional gambling (usually) involves large amounts of capital that you wager for a profit or loss, with lootboxes, the only loss you would be incurring really is the value of the key you bought/traded for. And even then, you are guaranteed a prize when opening a lootbox, but in traditional gambling, you either win or lose, there is no in-between.

New York has no case when you look at how they define gambling, and I feel this is just a witchhunt given that Valve just recently won a lawsuit filed by a Rothschild. I believe (and hope) that this case will be dismissed.

(P.S: fuck New York)

[acroman08]

Just a bit of an update regarding this thread

So, as expected, Valve bid to dismiss the lawsuit New York filed against them. Basically, Valve is arguing that the mystery boxes they have are like the mystery collectable packs(for any curious, he is referring to the Pokémon card mystery packs/baseball card mystery packs), and no legislature or court has deemed opening mystery packs as illegal gambling. They said a lot more, but this is basically the gist of their argument as to why the mystery boxes in their game are not gambling.

If you want to read the full article, here's the link.
https://www.courthousenews.com/valve-moves-to-dismiss-counter-strike-gambling-lawsuit-in-new-york/

[Sanitough]

Why are we suddenly hearing many news about countries suing casinos? Is this a sign that they are getting stricter when it comes to regulation, or are regulators just making ridiculous judgments because they are not updated with their knowledge?

Just like in the Philippines, there was a shooting incident involving minors and one senator is calling the developers of GoreBox to attend the hearing.

For me, this is an example of ignorance from the regulators.

[acroman08]

Why are we suddenly hearing many news about countries suing casinos? Is this a sign that they are getting stricter when it comes to regulation, or are regulators just making ridiculous judgments because they are not updated with their knowledge?

Yeah, it could be because countries are becoming stricter with their regulations because of the increasing gambling issues that are being recorded. Also, the fact that more teenagers are being reported to be suffering from gambling addiction is probably why they are(at least New York in this case) targeting Valve for the loot boxes in their game.

Just like in the Philippines, there was a shooting incident involving minors and one senator is calling the developers of GoreBox to attend the hearing.

This one is just annoying, it's like they just want to show that they are doing something even though what they are doing is stupid. They even have a list of games that they consider "too violent" wants to ban them immediately.

[Franklyn-wood]

Why are we suddenly hearing many news about countries suing casinos? Is this a sign that they are getting stricter when it comes to regulation, or are regulators just making ridiculous judgments because they are not updated with their knowledge?

Yeah, it could be because countries are becoming stricter with their regulations because of the increasing gambling issues that are being recorded. Also, the fact that more teenagers are being reported to be suffering from gambling addiction is probably why they are(at least New York in this case) targeting Valve for the loot boxes in their game.

Just like in the Philippines, there was a shooting incident involving minors and one senator is calling the developers of GoreBox to attend the hearing.

This one is just annoying, it's like they just want to show that they are doing something even though what they are doing is stupid. They even have a list of games that they consider "too violent" wants to ban them immediately.

Well I believe banishing some of this games maybe part of the ways they seem to prove that there regulatory bodies in this country are active by trying to protect the interest of the teenager, youths and citizens at large from gambling addictions which if allowed can cause some of this young ones not to work and be lazy. What this kids watch or games they play can also impact there life's negatively

[YOSHIE]

New York is suing Valve for its lootboxes inside its games. The article is saying that New York is arguing that Valve is promoting illegal gambling practices with its lootboxes and wants them to stop/remove it in their game.

The point is that we are not talking about the Valve gambling site, that's a different matter, what we are talking about is whether the "lootboxes" game is included in gambling or not.

As far as I know, there are several countries that prohibit lootbox games, it doesn't matter if the gambling site is licensed or not, the casino is legal or illegal, those who implement lootbox games will be banned and given strict sanctions for the casino. New York may also be one to put forward a similar case.
For example: In Indonesia, lootbox games are considered and viewed as a criminal act of gambling, which is strictly prohibited.
The Netherlands and Belgium also prohibit the circulation of lootbox games, the European Union, England and Australia also have their own regulations for industries that develop lootbox games.

In short, in my personal opinion, I can say that lootbox games are disguised gambling, where they are not transparent regarding prizes, where players have to spend real money to buy boxes but the items they get are tied to the game account. where players cannot exchange with fiat currency, here it is clearly detrimental to the players themselves that fiat money is issued but there is no reverse result, it is called a disguised game, so it is natural for New York to take action against gambling sites that offer lootbox games.

[Hispo]

This is actually big news, I would have never expected a state of the United States to actually sue Valve for allowing people to partake in the opening of lootboxes, if the State of New York actually manage to get their way it could mean there would be less predatory monetizarion within the world of gaming and within Steam ecosystem.

I believe lootboxes and Gacha games are indeed a mild form of gambling, even if there is no direct money being risked and no actual money being rewarded within the game, the value of the items one can get in Counter Strike is so high (compared to the cost of boxes) that it literally translates to turning a few bucks to thousands of dollars in a few minutes (if one is lucky enough).

Let us see what Valve do and whether there is some kind of settlement between the government of New York and administration of Valve.