Bitcoin adoption slowing; Coinbase + Bitpay is enough to make Bitcoin a fiat

[mgburks77]

Careful. I agree but not sure if you were leaning Marxist. It won't be done for free. The Marxist slant is very wrong. Eric Raymond explained that very well and I didn't disagree.

I recognize the validity of some marxian analysis but I'm more of a radical individualist and opportunist than anything ideological, though.

Quite disillusioned, don't believe in much but myself anymore.  

I think I will be able to do more by coding than talking. I think it is difficult for you all to visualize what I am talking about, until you actually interact with it in reality.

Sounds amazing. I can't wait.

[AnonyMint]

Concrete example of the Knowledge Economy.

You produce a 3D printing design for a car. I buy it using anonymous coin, print it and drive it around. I improve it and publish my improvement.

Did you see the fixed a guy's face with 3D printing?

You see the knowledge will take over. The knowledge will improve everything so fast at 1000s of iterations of new designs per day or week.

We will be living Jetsons life within 10 to 20 years.

There is absolutely no problem once we kick the bastards off our virtual lawn using anonymity so they can't extort from us any more using the government force.

They can't afford to put a thug policeman inside of every home on earth.

[AnonyMint]

Guys love to create stuff. Guys are going to love the new economy. And women are going to love you.

[mgburks77]

I was thinking more in line of stimulus.  Like QE, but direct to private enterprise for the purpose of entrepreneurship or job creation.  Entrepreneurs capitalized from the Feds money without banks in the middle.  Fed owns equity in the business.  Then ring fence speculative trading or only allow cash based speculation without derivatives.  Let the hedge funds gamble but not on leveraged instruments.  If they go bust it doesn't drag down the rest of the system

Maybe Job Guarantee?  Govt as employer of last resort.  

I don't know.  Its a tough thing to ponder

There are a lot of moving parts to take into consideration.

Something like that I would see as a stopgap measure at best because it doesn't really get to the basis of the problem, because leveraged trading is far from the only way that capital is misallocated by our society.

[mgburks77]

Guys love to create stuff. Guys are going to love the new economy. And women are going to love you.

Huzzah! 

I like it

[twiifm]

Decentralized political economy --- Is this like feudalism?

more like prior to feudalism

Individualized artisan production --  Pre Industrial production?

post industrial

Whats prior to feudalism?  Empires or tribalism?  How would you unravel our modern systems to obtain this state?

[thaaanos]

Go ahead. You will be very impoverished compared to those who leverage the specialization and cooperation.

You will produce everything yourself from raw resources, dig up your own ore, build your own smelters, etc. And forget 3D printing, because you want to be disconnected from knowledge.

You want to go back to a caveman? That is what you are saying. I hope you realize.

More like smaller societies physically disconnected, not each on his own. Culture/Art you know is an oppressive beast and a topic untouched yet. Knowledge isn't everything.

I have canonical citations on those but hard to dig them up. I don't feel like being bothered at the moment.

It is a fact that Rome collapsed due to environmental degradation due to debt caused overintensive farming which lead to the inability to produce enough to sustain. But Rome's collapse had many facets, yet this was one of the fundamental factors. I had also a citation about pottery records showing farming was still increasing right up until the collapse. Also have much documentation about the environmental degradation and as always this caused the marginal utility of debt to go negative because the marginal increase in production from farms went negative.

Don't forget that Rome was entirely agriculture based. That was the reason the empire existed to build roads and military security to increase commerce from agriculture.

Do you have any reason to believe this is wrong?

Rome's collapse was political, cultural and scientific stagnation after the initial breakthroughs that made them an empire.
Greece collapse was as ever the internal strife, we worship Eris.

[mgburks77]

Concrete example of the Knowledge Economy.

You produce a 3D printing design for a car. I buy it using anonymous coin, print it and drive it around. I improve it and publish my improvement.

Did you see the fixed a guy's face with 3D printing?

You see the knowledge will take over. The knowledge will improve everything so fast at 1000s of iterations of new designs per day or week.

We will be living Jetsons life within 10 to 20 years.

There is absolutely no problem once we kick the bastards off our virtual lawn using anonymity so they can't extort from us any more using the government force.

They can't afford to put a thug policeman inside of every home on earth.

Sounds like you are talking about post scarcity, I'm in

[mgburks77]

Decentralized political economy --- Is this like feudalism?

more like prior to feudalism

Individualized artisan production --  Pre Industrial production?

post industrial

Whats prior to feudalism?  Empires or tribalism?  How would you unravel our modern systems to obtain this state?

I'm referring to stateless society

edit: Here's a nice example:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Icelandic_Commonwealth

[twiifm]

I was thinking more in line of stimulus.  Like QE, but direct to private enterprise for the purpose of entrepreneurship or job creation.  Entrepreneurs capitalized from the Feds money without banks in the middle.  Fed owns equity in the business.  Then ring fence speculative trading or only allow cash based speculation without derivatives.  Let the hedge funds gamble but not on leveraged instruments.  If they go bust it doesn't drag down the rest of the system

Maybe Job Guarantee?  Govt as employer of last resort.  

I don't know.  Its a tough thing to ponder

There are a lot of moving parts to take into consideration.

Something like that I would see as a stopgap measure at best because it doesn't really get to the basis of the problem, because leveraged trading is far from the only way that capital is misallocated by our society.

Yeah I know there's a lot of moving parts.  That's why it's hard to design a system that incorporate everything.  I don't see leveraged instruments as capital misallocation.  I see de-leveraging as contributor to liquidity crisis.  I wouldn't outlaw derivatives just ring fence them

[AnonyMint]

Go ahead. You will be very impoverished compared to those who leverage the specialization and cooperation.

You will produce everything yourself from raw resources, dig up your own ore, build your own smelters, etc. And forget 3D printing, because you want to be disconnected from knowledge.

You want to go back to a caveman? That is what you are saying. I hope you realize.

More like smaller societies physically disconnected, not each on his own. Culture/Art you know is an oppressive beast and a topic untouched yet. Knowledge isn't everything.

I am talking everyone can connect to everyone without a bastard freeloading middle man (who captures the State to help him maintain in his monopoly).

We have to get rid of centralized exchange. We move to P2P, etc..

Each person's work is their own. No one takes a transaction fee or cut of the action!

Rome's collapse was political, cultural and scientific stagnation after the initial breakthroughs that made them an empire.
Greece collapse was as ever the internal strife, we worship Eris.

Your talking effects. I was talking cause. The cause was as always centralization of power, and too much debt. The ill effects of debt is knowledge stagnates and everyone does dumb xerox copy shit. And this monotonicity causes the appearance of resource scarcity.

If everyone is figuring out how to consume and no one is figuring out how to innovate, then it isn't surprising that consumption outstrips efficiencies of resource extraction.

Fact is that the 2000 year price of commodities has always trended downwards. This will not stop.

Iron used to be a precious metal.

[AnonyMint]

Decentralized political economy --- Is this like feudalism?

more like prior to feudalism

Individualized artisan production --  Pre Industrial production?

post industrial

Whats prior to feudalism?  Empires or tribalism?  How would you unravel our modern systems to obtain this state?

No we are not going backwards. Material costs will trend towards zero relative to knowledge value, because knowledge will propagate in diverse fine-grained interactions of creations. Thus we don't need to go backwards. This is a totally new way to organize ourselves distributed without top-down control, because the economics of production have suddenly been ameliorated by the computer and 3D printing.

[thaaanos]

Go ahead. You will be very impoverished compared to those who leverage the specialization and cooperation.

You will produce everything yourself from raw resources, dig up your own ore, build your own smelters, etc. And forget 3D printing, because you want to be disconnected from knowledge.

You want to go back to a caveman? That is what you are saying. I hope you realize.

More like smaller societies physically disconnected, not each on his own. Culture/Art you know is an oppressive beast and a topic untouched yet. Knowledge isn't everything.

I am talking everyone can connect to everyone without a bastard middle man.

We have to get rid of centralized exchange. We move to P2P, etc..

Each person's work is their own. No one takes a transaction fee or cut of the action!

Maybe everyone talking to everyone is not optimal. Maybe some Ideas should never meet.
Why work anyway, lets all get a hobby or something. Not everything is about economy, production, transaction

Rome's collapse was political, cultural and scientific stagnation after the initial breakthroughs that made them an empire.
Greece collapse was as ever the internal strife, we worship Eris.

You talking effects. I was talking cause. The cause was as always centralization of power, and too much debt.

I was thinking the same about your post,
anyway Greece never had centralization until 19 century. You could say that the city states were a token of decentralized world

[thaaanos]

Decentralized political economy --- Is this like feudalism?

more like prior to feudalism

Individualized artisan production --  Pre Industrial production?

post industrial

Whats prior to feudalism?  Empires or tribalism?  How would you unravel our modern systems to obtain this state?

No we are not going backwards. Material costs will trend towards zero relative to knowledge value. Thus we don't need to go backwards. This is a totally new way to organize ourselves distributed without top-down control, because the economics of production have suddenly been ameliorated by the computer and 3D printing.

Unless we make everything out of graphene I don't see that happening. You will still need to get the "ink"

[AnonyMint]

thaaanos I don't think you want to join us. Take care my friend. I bet you will change your mind later.

I don't have time to argue about the intricacies of how debt causes failure. I am sure you will find it was debt that caused Greece's failure. From your name, I assume you are from that area of the world?

Good luck and no bad feelings okay. We can agree to disagree.

[AnonyMint]

Unless we make everything out of graphene I don't see that happening. You will still need to get the "ink"

Relative value of knowledge compared to the cost of ink will trend asymptotically towards infinity. Or stated the other way, the cost of ink relative to what you earn from knowledge, will trend asymptotically towards ZERO.

Click the link in the post below and look at the chart.

>So @esr, how do you align the long tail of maintenance into the sunk v marginal cost framework?

Er, simply by observing that it is neither of those things and can’t be jammed into that framework.

He makes it clear that he didn't even consider that the lower transactional propagation cost of digital distribution of editable creations increases the frequency, granularity, and autonomy of those maintenance edits. He apparently doesn't remember that Metcalfe's or Reed's Law says that as the number of those editing nodes increases, then the value of the knowledge network increases squared.

See the interconnections are what causes the knowledge value to scale non-linearly at n^2.

You will miss out on that because you want to be isolated.

You don't have math on your side.

[mgburks77]

Decentralized political economy --- Is this like feudalism?

more like prior to feudalism

Individualized artisan production --  Pre Industrial production?

post industrial

Whats prior to feudalism?  Empires or tribalism?  How would you unravel our modern systems to obtain this state?

No we are not going backwards. Material costs will trend towards zero relative to knowledge value. Thus we don't need to go backwards. This is a totally new way to organize ourselves distributed without top-down control, because the economics of production have suddenly been ameliorated by the computer and 3D printing.

Unless we make everything out of graphene I don't see that happening. You will still need to get the "ink"

All sorts of materials can be used in additive manufacture. Plastics, metals, glass, even chocolate. Even better there are bio-materials being developed which will be used to print organs for transplant etc.

Maybe some day we will understand how to utilize base particles to manufacture objects made from any solid material on the periodic table.

[thaaanos]

[Relative value of knowledge compared to the cost of ink will trend asymptotically towards infinity. Or stated the other way, the cost of ink relative to what you earn from knowledge, will trend asymptotically towards ZERO.

I would disagree here, because "ink" producers will be a monopoly while "design" producers will move in a highly competitive field.
Current analogy, How much does it cost me to print a book instead of buying it? (disregarding the fact that it doesn't need printing)

thaaanos I don't think you want to join us. Take care my friend. I bet you will change your mind later.

I don't have time to argue about the intricacies of how debt causes failure. I am sure you will find it was debt that caused Greece's failure. From your name, I assume you are from that area of the world?

Good luck and no bad feelings okay. We can agree to disagree.

Join what?
Yes I am Greek and can say have intuitive knowledge in our history.
I just don't like it when people weaken good ideas by reinforcing them with biased facts

@mgburks77 I would place my bets on graphene and the rest of nano-carbons for the forseeable future

[AnonyMint]

I was thinking more in line of stimulus.  Like QE, but direct to private enterprise for the purpose of entrepreneurship or job creation.  Entrepreneurs capitalized from the Feds money without banks in the middle.  Fed owns equity in the business.  Then ring fence speculative trading or only allow cash based speculation without derivatives.  Let the hedge funds gamble but not on leveraged instruments.  If they go bust it doesn't drag down the rest of the system

Maybe Job Guarantee?  Govt as employer of last resort.  

I don't know.  Its a tough thing to ponder

There are a lot of moving parts to take into consideration.

Something like that I would see as a stopgap measure at best because it doesn't really get to the basis of the problem, because leveraged trading is far from the only way that capital is misallocated by our society.

You don't fix the power vacuum of democracy with financialization trickery.

The only way is to fundamentally change the economics of production and creativity and by removing the ability of the collective to tax private property.

In this new world, everything you create is yours. Nobody takes a cut of your action. You trade your knowledge goods in the open market.

This is already happening in software. Now we move to the next stage of this transition.

Those who get on this bandwagon are the new wealthy of the world.

[AnonyMint]

Join what?

Ahem. I guess you will know soon eh.  

Any way I am describing an imminent paradigm shift underway. It will come from many people and directions (I don't know who they are, this is a natural movement of society). I just happen to be involved in one aspect of that.

Yes I am Greek and can say have intuitive knowledge in our history.
I just don't like it when people weaken good ideas by reinforcing them with biased facts

Let's get into this later. I would like to learn more from you and I think we can hash it out to realize that the power vacuum of democracy and debt were the essential cause. Those terms need definitions and I don't want to go endlessly into that discussion now.

Some Iron Laws of Political Economics