Bitcoin adoption slowing; Coinbase + Bitpay is enough to make Bitcoin a fiat

[AnonyMint]

[Relative value of knowledge compared to the cost of ink will trend asymptotically towards infinity. Or stated the other way, the cost of ink relative to what you earn from knowledge, will trend asymptotically towards ZERO.

I would disagree here, because "ink" producers will be a monopoly while "design" producers will move in a highly competitive field.
Current analogy, How much does it cost me to print a book instead of buying it? (disregarding the fact that it doesn't need printing)

You didn't understand the scaling math.

You expect someone to corner the market of ink? Okay the knowledge producers will simply substitute other materials.

The raw tangible materials are not scarce. The virtual (even anonymous) knowledge is.

The raw material producers can't do their business competitively without the knowledge. We can design bots which bore into ground and mine ore following the highest grade veins with no stripping ratio 100X more efficiently.

Those idiot monopolists will be holding worthless open pit mines. Our zillions of tiny autonomous bots will be mining it out from under them.

The bastards have no chance. Checkmate.

Knowledge is power. What do they have? All they ever had was our inability to organize ourselves decentralized so that we don't need them. Now we have it. We don't need them any more.

[thaaanos]

I understand what you mean on the new paradigm and believe that it will happen,
but I cannot pinpoint what market force will drive the cost price of "ink" down, and not scale arbitrary in tandem with the "design"
The ink producers can and will create a cartel, based on the physical scarcity of prime materials, much like ie oil right now.
Oil is probably a perfect analogy of "ink" as it feeds every other industry, and yet it dominates the price of the products.

The cartel will not be based on the efficiency of their operation, rather on the "Rights" to mine, and we fall back to the scarcity of Land

[AnonyMint]

They can stop the innovation. For example, they do something society hates, then hackers spread a 3D printer design for a bot that subverts what ever they are doing.

They will be defeated because in 1 hour 1 million people can make bots at any spot in the world and put them to shame.

They maintain their monopolies only because individuals can't take action.

Once individuals can take direct action, it is game over for them.

If there was a bot design now to stop the shit going on in Syria, do you think the people wouldn't 3D print it now?

Of course the people will rise up with rage once they have the tools to do so.

[mgburks77]

You don't fix the power vacuum of democracy with financialization trickery.

Well, since the calamity of WWII we've seen the collapse of Bretton Woods and the Nixon Shock. The direct purpose of removing USD peg to gold was in order to be able to debase the currency and leverage debt. The wave of technical developments developed to facilitate the ensuing financialization of the US economy are the basis for what technical systems we have now. US foreign policy is informed by the need to outright rob the developing world to prop up the system. We use the IMF shell game to make loans to defaulting nations solely as a pretext to seize their wealth. When that well runs dry they will have a choice: Start a war with a BRIC nation or strip the domestic population. Considering the BRIC nations are not an existential threat to the US and if left to their own devices will simply strip their own populations and leave the US alone the logical target is domestic population. When severe economic crisis becomes apparent they will become an existential threat to to the state so by that point they will be killing two birds with one stone when they take down their own population.

Conclusion: the inevitable effect of sovereign debt crisis is well understood at the top of the food chain and they have been working for decades to trap all of the exits for when they decide to draw the nets in. They've built a massive security apparatus that is clearly targeted toward the domestic population so it's easy to see now what the plan has been all along.

US decline has been apparent since it's peak right after WWII when the US commanded fully 1/2 of the world's capital. The post war era has been a series of desperate gambles to try and hold one to an decaying empire. That, in a nutshell, is a description of the foolishness that has destroyed the US and turned into what it is today, a tinpot despotism that can't manage it's spending.

[BenAnh]

P.S.S. I predicted a couple of weeks ago the IRS ruling would be what it is and that it would cause the price to dive. The post is some where in my public archives on bitcointalk.

And you don't think it's with a bit of luck at all with your prediction? Don't tell me this is the only time you predicted correctly in your life! For smart investors it's not one-time shot but they can predict with accuracy on a consistent basis. Let's say you've invested in 10 companies and possibly more than half will fail but this doesn't mean you fail at all as long as the rest makes more of a profit than your loses.

I'd like to know what your prediction is when the next price will go up with a degree of certainty. Maybe if you think you will predict correctly then bet your savings or your life on it. I can BS about the next move and if it's wrong then so what; however if it's right then I will let everyone know about it. Bitcoin has not reached a tipping point yet where mass adoption is what we look for due to its complexity over its affordability plus its efficiency. It has to reach 15% including innovators and early adopters out of either 7 billions or simply connected people with internet access on earth or even if you do the math on a particular country (Should learn how Apple and Google reach the mass with their math). We are no where near that number and it doesn't matter what math formula you're going to use.

[AnonyMint]

Cartels can't sustain without a powerful military backing them up. Men are naturally competitive and cartels have to be able put all the other men down.

How can they finance their military if they can't tax us because we are anonymous?

And how can they finance their businesses if we refuse to buy their overpriced raw materials when we can use knowledge to route around them?

They become impotent.

[AnonyMint]

You don't fix the power vacuum of democracy with financialization trickery.

Well, since the calamity of WWII we've seen the collapse of Bretton Woods and the Nixon Shock. The direct purpose of removing USD peg to gold was in order to be able to debase the currency and leverage debt. The wave of technical developments developed to facilitate the ensuing financiailization of the US economy are the basis for what technical systems we have now. US foreign policy is informed for by the need to outright rob the developing world to prop up the system. We use the IMF shell game to make loans to defaulting nations solely as a pretext to seize their wealth. When that well runs dry they will have a choice: Start a war with a BRIC nation or strip the domestic population. Considering the BRIC nations are not an existential threat to the US and if left to their own devices will simply strip their own populations and leave the US alone the logical target is domestic population. When severe economic crisis becomes apparent they will become an existential threat to to the state so by that point they will be killing two birds with one stone when they take down their own population.

Conclusion: the inevitable effect of sovereign debt crisis is well understood at the top of the food chain and they have been working for decades to trap all of the exits for when they decide to draw the nets in. They've built a massive security apparatus that is clearly targeted toward the domestic population so it's easy to see now what the plan has been all along.

Wow best summary I've read ever of why the West will attack its own citizens.

[thaaanos]

It ends up to the "Rights" to extract the resources, assuming government still stands it can call upon the same decentralized infrastructure as hackers do. If government and no regulation of  resources is in place then we end up in uncontrolled resource grab race, not a good idea.

It's not easy to decentralize physical resources management, we can of course move to planned economy for that part of the industry and operate it at cost.  

[AnonyMint]

How can the government stand if it has no income?

Remember relative value of knowledge will be 1000X higher then the rest of the economy. So their taxes on the dummies won't help them against the value of what we (knowledge workers, i.e. hackers) are creating.

Knowledge is power. Bots, etc..

It isn't an uncontrolled resource grab. Who ever can defend the resource and produce it will. Society will allow those who produce efficiently to continue. Society will attack those who try to build empires.

The raw resources are going to be so devalued, that isn't going to be that attractive to fight over them.

The 1000X value will be in creating knowledge. People won't be bothered with stealing resources such a low value added activity by that time.

[thaaanos]

Oil is food, Oil is materials, Oil is Energy, Oil is what backs USD
Oil is what you can't print. Oil is your Tax.

[AnonyMint]

Oil is food, Oil is materials, Oil is Energy, Oil is what backs USD
Oil is what you can't print. Oil is your Tax.

You can't seem to agree that knowledge will 1000X more valuable than those raw materials.

You have entirely missed the point of my post here:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=495527.msg6065144#msg6065144

So I think we will stop the discussion now. I don't have more time.

Let them raise the price of oil to $1 million per liter. Our knowledge value will rise proportionally. Then I (and others) will be earning $1 trillion per day.

It is the value-added to raw inputs that is relevant. With mass production, the value-added of knowledge was amortized over the capital cost of the factory and millions of xerox copies.

Now the creations will change 1000s of variants per day or minute. The value-added is unfathomable.

It is the speed of the propagation of creation of product innovation that destroys (devalues) their control.

[thaaanos]

It isn't an uncontrolled resource grab. Who ever can defend the resource and produce it will. Society will allow those who produce efficiently to continue. Society will attack those who try to build empires.

He (Goverment) who can defend the resource and allow the production will cover it's expenses on Defending it and Producing it.
The more you try to subvert them the more you make said resource costier. Society (Goverment) will not attack itself.
You can't let free market manage scarce resources and expect 1000X falling behind in the cut.
Maybe you dislike the idea but only with a planned economy you can get there.

In short I don't believe the market dynamics will allow you the 1000X.
Exhibit A pair of shoes costs about the same as a CPU, is the technology or the Patents or the Work to reach a CPU anywhere near a pair of shoes? Or a dinner in a reastaurant?

[AnonyMint]

No you need to re-read my prior post. You don't comprehend relative value created by decentralized creation and sharing of creations at speed-of-light over the internet.

[pungopete468]

@ AnonyMint

Hypothetically, if a new crypto was invented today; one which offered anonymity and could only be mined by CPU, do you think there is enough time left to make a difference? Do you think that a year and a half to two years would make enough of a difference to cushion the impact of the world bearing down on us? I'm concerned that we're already out of time and can only brace for impact.

I tend to agree with just about everything I've read in this thread and I hate it because it really magnifies the scope of our situation. Bitcoin was created for a reason; a damn good reason. Be your own bank, make anonymous transactions; it's your money and nobody can tell you how to spend it, nor do they have any business knowing how much you have. Bitcoin should indeed be mined by CPU only and Bitcoin should be mined rather than purchased...

Coinbase has my info, there is no anonymity for me. When everything falls apart, they can come for me.

I don't care about the price of Bitcoin, it's nothing more than a speculative investment now. I feel despair right now because I'm living within an irrational system where the only logical outcome is complete and total collapse. I feel like every attempt to secure wealth is an act of futility. We're all just ducking and covering before the bright burning flash. I fear the new world will be unrecognizable and hostile when compared against the one before it.

I've been thinking about history, reading quotes from Russia and Germany written by some of the citizens who were taken from their homes and hauled away. I fear history will repeat itself and this time there will be no intervention. Nature will run its course. How many people will walk quietly into the night only to face their death as a prisoner? There's no room in the new world for the poor or middle class, what they're asking for is genocide...

2016 is the year, I've been saying it now for 2 years. There's no way to be ready for it, we just need to do the best we can. I hope I'm wrong...

[AnonyMint]

pungopete468 that is why I am going to shut up now. How can I program if I am always defending the conceptual idea.

Agreed we are running out of time.

Signing off.

Pay attention to your private messages.

Don't despair. You will soon have something.

[thaaanos]

pungopete468 that is why I am going to shut up now. How can I program if I am always defending the conceptual idea.

Agreed we are running out of time.

Signing off.

Pay attention to your private messages.

ok I shut up let you to work.

EDIT:But when you are done I reserve the right to fork it, and make your coin rusty

[7thKingdom]

pungopete468 that is why I am going to shut up now. How can I program if I am always defending the conceptual idea.

I don't think you have to defend the conceptual ideas so much.  When the time comes they will stand on their own merit (plus, you've already put out a plethora of great information for anyone interested in exploring the concepts discussed here and elsewhere on the forums).

[Zarathustra]

What is the optimum system?

*Decentralized political economy and mix of individualized artisan quality production and automation to replace consumerism and authoritarian top down control of collectivized production.

Nah... the optimum system is *disconnection* isolation, not integration

+1000

Whoever denies this truth is a collectivist. In a million years there was never found labor division beyond the nuclear community.

[trainingsengineering]

They maintain their monopolies only because individuals can't take action.

You really hit home here. This is very true. When people have the tools to take action, they will do it.

[Corazon79]

Don't you think global transparency in financial systems (thanks to a traceable public ledger) might be a good thing ? (To help fight corruption, for instance)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-26865695

There are no ramifications even when corruption is proven and openly admitted to by offenders in public office.

For example, in Britain the other day, Culture Secretary Maria Miller apologised to MPs for her attitude towards an inquiry into her expenses. The Commons Committee on Standards ordered her to repay £5,800 to cover over-claiming of mortgage expenses after she failed to cut her claims as interest rates fell.

Miller actually made around £1 million in capital gains from the appreciation in real estate/property values after making these fraudulent claims. If a member of the UK public committed a similar offence, they would probably face around six years in jail. For Miller, a simple apology was enough to avoid imprisonment.