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Author Topic: Bitcoin adoption slowing; Coinbase + Bitpay is enough to make Bitcoin a fiat  (Read 67112 times)
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JorgeStolfi
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June 26, 2014, 04:37:48 PM
 #421

The frogs boil in the pot because they never realize they are boiling until they are already dead. The sheeople are the same.
Hello? The resources and consensus has already accomplished and is already under way.
True, but fortunately we now have the means to fight that. We only need to design a good anonymous cryptocoin, and convince the US government to let us market it on NASDAQ. Then we can live the rest of our lives, freely and anonymously, in the basements of our cabins in the woods -- laughing while we watch the governments crumble and banks go bankrupt, for them not being able to find and steal our fabulous all-digital wealth.

Academic interest in bitcoin only. Not owner, not trader, very skeptical of its longterm success.
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June 27, 2014, 04:41:56 AM
 #422

The frogs boil in the pot because they never realize they are boiling until they are already dead. The sheeople are the same.
Hello? The resources and consensus has already accomplished and is already under way.
True, but fortunately we now have the means to fight that. We only need to design a good anonymous cryptocoin, and convince the US government to let us market it on NASDAQ. Then we can live the rest of our lives, freely and anonymously, in the basements of our cabins in the woods -- laughing while we watch the governments crumble and banks go bankrupt, for them not being able to find and steal our fabulous all-digital wealth.

It is good you are aware the fantasy doesn't work out so eloquently.

The Mad Max outcome you fear is coming regardless of whether the anonymous currency exists. It will be worse without it, because no capital would survive the power of socialism to destroy itself (and now with global coordination).

I don't see what staying one place (basement) has to do with anonymity. You are conflating.

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June 28, 2014, 05:03:21 PM
 #423

How do you trust Zerocash, when the NSA could serve the creators of the setup parameters with a national security gag order on the eve of the public ceremony?

There are other advanced technical means that might be used to intercept the setup parameters even at such a ceremony, e.g. the NSA can reprogram the microcode of CPUs using built in backdoors and there is technology for jumping the air gap and intercepting the computations inside the computer.

And we will never know if the money supply is being inflated away since the money supply is invisible.

Potentially there is an alternative means of employing Zerocash in an altcoin which could ameliorate the above problem.

If a new Zerocash instance was created periodically, users were allowed to mint instance coins and then unmint (cash out) within a fixed period of time for each instance, then it would clear if the output cash out money supply was greater than the input minted money supply.

Since the creator of the setup parameters is unable to break the anonymity, anyone could create the setup parameters and if the money supply doesn't match after the instance is terminated, then that entity would no longer be trusted.

However there are still several things I don't like about this:

1. The complex unvetted new crypto could still potentially be broken by cryptanalysis over time. (and all the public history of anonymity would then suddenly be revealed to the adversary)

2. What to do if an instance's output money supply doesn't match the input? Ban all those coins? Yuk!

3. The entire thing rests on building reputations and reputation is a slippery slope to centralized hell:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=557732.msg6501833#msg6501833

...See my comments about problems with reputation at the link above...

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July 12, 2014, 12:02:28 AM
Last edit: July 12, 2014, 12:14:59 AM by AnonyMint
 #424

Saw that Monero is partnering with I2P:

https://geti2p.net/en/blog/post/2014/05/25/Monero-partnership

Either the Monero developers don't intend to provide anonymity against the NSA or don't understand that (especially low-latency) Chaum mix-nets are not immune to timing analysis by a global adversary such as the NSA, GCHQ, and other national security agencies:

https://geti2p.net/en/comparison/tor

Quote
The I2P/Tor outproxy functionality does have a few substantial weaknesses against certain attackers - once the communication leaves the mixnet, global passive adversaries can more easily mount traffic analysis. In addition, the outproxies have access to the cleartext of the data transferred in both directions, and outproxies are prone to abuse,

Here are more citations:

https://tails.boum.org/doc/about/warning/index.en.html#index4h1

Quote
Confirmation attacks

The Tor design doesn't try to protect against an attacker who can see or measure both traffic going into the Tor network and also traffic coming out of the Tor network. That's because if you can see both flows, some simple statistics let you decide whether they match up.

That could also be the case if your ISP (or your local network administrator) and the ISP of the destination server (or the destination server itself) cooperate to attack you.

Tor tries to protect against traffic analysis, where an attacker tries to learn whom to investigate, but Tor can't protect against traffic confirmation (also known as end-to-end correlation), where an attacker tries to confirm an hypothesis by monitoring the right locations in the network and then doing the math.

Quoted from Tor Project: "One cell is enough to break Tor's anonymity".

Also the weaknesses you listed are not complete. Every low-latency Chaum mixnet (i.e. Tor, I2P, Anonymox, etc) is subject to timing attacks due to a global adversary (e.g. national security agencies) that can monitor most or all of the encrypted (even if they can't decrypt it) traffic passing in and out of the proxy servers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Onion_routing&oldid=592703635#Weaknesses
https://tails.boum.org/doc/about/warning/index.en.html#index4h1
https://tails.boum.org/doc/about/warning/index.en.html#index7h1
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tor_%28anonymity_network%29#Exit_node_eavesdropping

Quote from: Dan Egerstad, a Swedish security consultant
If you actually look in to where these Tor nodes are hosted and how big they are, some of these nodes cost thousands of dollars each month just to host because they're using lots of bandwidth, they're heavy-duty servers and so on. Who would pay for this and be anonymous?


Note the NSA is sharing data with relevant authorities in each country in the G20 to help them hunt down the wealth:

Since the Knowledge Age is rising [3], socialism is peaking into an economic collapse soon (maybe to rise even higher in future), thus we headed into a crazy period where the governments will try to fund the $150227 trillion global debt bubble [4] by hunting down all private capital (G20 announced a database for this today, NSA will contribute and note this is the bankster business model for them to own everything), then as Bitcoin is taken over top-down then the alternative coin with the above features will take over and become the surviving private sector...


Good to see the I2P developers updated their website about timing analysis after I gave them the heads up (about such vulnerability of low-latency mix-nets) nearly a year ago quoted as follows.

Apologies if this has already been asked upthead. I didn't have time to read the entire thread.

Does Anoncoin not view high-latency for I2P as critically urgent as I do?

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=273197.msg2950363#msg2950363
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=276849.msg2955966#msg2955966
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=273197.msg2950849#msg2950849

I2P doesn't plan on implementing until version 3.0? When is that ETA?

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July 12, 2014, 12:11:51 AM
 #425

Saw that Monero is partnering with I2P:

https://geti2p.net/en/blog/post/2014/05/25/Monero-partnership

Either the Monero developers don't intend to provide anonymity against the NSA or don't understand that Chaum mix-nets are not immune to timing analysis by a global adversary such as the NSA, GCHQ, and other national security agencies:

https://geti2p.net/en/comparison/tor

Quote
The I2P/Tor outproxy functionality does have a few substantial weaknesses against certain attackers - once the communication leaves the mixnet, global passive adversaries can more easily mount traffic analysis. In addition, the outproxies have access to the cleartext of the data transferred in both directions, and outproxies are prone to abuse,

Here are more citations:

https://tails.boum.org/doc/about/warning/index.en.html#index4h1

Quote
Confirmation attacks

The Tor design doesn't try to protect against an attacker who can see or measure both traffic going into the Tor network and also traffic coming out of the Tor network. That's because if you can see both flows, some simple statistics let you decide whether they match up.

That could also be the case if your ISP (or your local network administrator) and the ISP of the destination server (or the destination server itself) cooperate to attack you.

Tor tries to protect against traffic analysis, where an attacker tries to learn whom to investigate, but Tor can't protect against traffic confirmation (also known as end-to-end correlation), where an attacker tries to confirm an hypothesis by monitoring the right locations in the network and then doing the math.

Quoted from Tor Project: "One cell is enough to break Tor's anonymity".

Also the weaknesses you listed are not complete. Every low-latency Chaum mixnet (i.e. Tor, I2P, Anonymox, etc) is subject to timing attacks due to a global adversary (e.g. national security agencies) that can monitor most or all of the encrypted (even if they can't decrypt it) traffic passing in and out of the proxy servers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Onion_routing&oldid=592703635#Weaknesses
https://tails.boum.org/doc/about/warning/index.en.html#index4h1
https://tails.boum.org/doc/about/warning/index.en.html#index7h1
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tor_%28anonymity_network%29#Exit_node_eavesdropping

Quote from: Dan Egerstad, a Swedish security consultant
If you actually look in to where these Tor nodes are hosted and how big they are, some of these nodes cost thousands of dollars each month just to host because they're using lots of bandwidth, they're heavy-duty servers and so on. Who would pay for this and be anonymous?


Note the NSA is sharing data with relevant authorities in each country in the G20 to help them hunt down the wealth:

Since the Knowledge Age is rising [3], socialism is peaking into an economic collapse soon (maybe to rise even higher in future), thus we headed into a crazy period where the governments will try to fund the $150227 trillion global debt bubble [4] by hunting down all private capital (G20 announced a database for this today, NSA will contribute and note this is the bankster business model for them to own everything), then as Bitcoin is taken over top-down then the alternative coin with the above features will take over and become the surviving private sector...


Good to see the I2P developers updated their website about timing analysis after I gave them the heads up (about such vulnerability of low-latency mix-nets) nearly a year ago quoted as follows.

Apologies if this has already been asked upthead. I didn't have time to read the entire thread.

Does Anoncoin not view high-latency for I2P as critically urgent as I do?

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=273197.msg2950363#msg2950363
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=276849.msg2955966#msg2955966
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=273197.msg2950849#msg2950849

I2P doesn't plan on implementing until version 3.0? When is that ETA?

 Shocked Dude..Even bitcoin is not immune to the NSA. thats too far fetched now imo....NSA and Quantam Compute immunity that so many people want, comes with time, implementing I2P is still a great start for any coin, NSA immunity and such can come after.....
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July 12, 2014, 12:54:56 AM
 #426

Either the Monero developers don't intend to provide anonymity against the NSA

As I understood by having (proxy) discussions with them, this is the case. By not intending to provide such anonymity, they aim to hit the sweet spot of being the "corporate coin", because corporations are hesitant to enter into Bitcoin due to all their transactions being open for competitors.

There will still be market for NSA-proof coins, when/if such can be developed.

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July 12, 2014, 01:23:44 AM
Last edit: July 15, 2014, 10:19:41 PM by kbm
 #427

There will still be market for NSA-proof coins, when/if such can be developed.

Hm, this seems like a good spot to start a summarized bucket list for myself of things that can/can't be in such a coin. I would have to consider such a coin to be ideal, and the list will be comprised of ideal needs. My thoughts on much of this are more toward a global adversary surpassing the capability of the combined efforts of the NSA/any other intelligence agencies, in order to not distract from the list. In such a scenario, global adversary is some variable that has all known or understood (and most likely many unknown) capabilities, yet may not be any particular entity that anyone's familiar with .. an ideal adversary. Such a scenario would be so overwhelming that the combination of all intelligence agencies as well as the rest of the world would be required to cooperate in global unity against this malignant adversary .. yet is not so powerful as to escape all logic so as to have a chance to thwart it, IE: not omnipotent.

-It can't have a publicly observable blockchain (with linkable transactions), but proof of payment must be able to be obtained (from the blockchain), and capable of being shared with a third party by at least both of the parties involved (with consent of at least one of the two). Corporations are hesitant to enter into Bitcoin due to all their transactions being open for competitors (ty rpietila). Proof of payment is required, because despite the next twenty years .. I'd like to assume we'd find stability in any future after that where people consent to being judged by a court of law. Courts can only demand remuneration if proof can be obtained.

-It needs to hide the functionality of the program through an ISP or whatever communication method is used. As the internet is the most widely available and practical, it would probably have to mask its functionality over the internet. This would require both encryption of traffic and the prevention of timing attacks to prevent feasible data-mining. It cannot be a low-latency Chaum mix-net, due specifically to timing attacks. Perhaps it should be usable over multiple communication methods? Maybe the low-latency should be addressed, as suggested by Anonymint -- Is this addressable? Regardless, an ideal adversary will have the capability to single you out amongst any amount of logically localized people and both capture and then decipher your internet traffic (or store it for such on a later date -- perhaps one where full decryption is possible). From this data, a private 'un-obscured blockchain' could be constructed and put up for sale. This would ultimately prove to be very lucrative and would eliminate the benefit established by an obscured blockchain in the first place (see above paragraph).

-It cannot be susceptible to quantum computing in any way. I believe Anonymint and gmaxwell have mentioned that the usage of Winternitz/Lamport signatures as a valid means of subverting double spends. Using quantum computing, double spends can be executed with ease on existing elliptic curve technologies .. so post-quantum cryptography will need to be in order. This needs to be extended to the encryption of the internet traffic between nodes, and the PoW (if used). The usage of Lamport signatures has been described as "inefficient in size to be implemented anywhere at all (CN Site)", which will need to be explained.

-It would need to be based on well-vetted cryptography, for no other reason than to have a chance at gaining trust. See book titled Post Quantum Cryptography? It needs to have been around long enough to say that there's no way around it; however, this is enigmatic because if such methodologies were already implemented there would be less/more refined/different requirements overall for this ideal coin.

-It would need to be scalable, to the demographic that it serves. Should failed larger demographic support be alleviated by having multiple active forks? Compare to visa/mastercard (whose presence indicates forks will be favored over one world digital currency) in thousands of tx/minute .. or bank accounts that store value for years. This is scale. Can it hold value representative of those that want to store value (perfection is not required, but a reasonable level of storage must be provided over a given comfortable time frame - losses can be offset with other investments) and can it process transactions representative of those that want to transact. Scalability can be confirmed so long as both of the answers to those questions remains yes at the current time in which they are asked.

-It should operate using a PoW method, in order to prevent spam -- should it also be able to broadcast communications (the alternative implication here is that a suitable ideal communications system would logically present itself before an ideal coin -- in which case the question here would be: should the ideal communication system be able to support the ideal coin)? Some form of sybil attack prevention is necessary to prevent the network from being needlessly clogged up for a very little cost. PoW has the most sensible distribution method -- I don't have to cross my fingers and hope a currency merchant comes along for me to buy currencies from, I don't need to sign up for anything .. I just have to download a program and let my computer solve hashes. A pervasive, unhindered and trustless distribution model will and has provably served for deeper penetration into a larger demographic .. and goes a long way toward preventing extreme relative value centralization (relative to the current value stored in the market).

-The PoW method involved must provide some form of equality (egalitarian) of all parties involved. One cpu, one vote. If the world was reduced to only cryptocurrencies now, we would be in a feudal system as there is hardware that is not common and is targeted to be owned by only a few people (GPU -> FPGA -> ASIC -> embedded ASIC(ex: CPU instruction sets) -> ?). This was one of the the same reasons Wal-Mart did not pay its employees with Wal-Mart dollars. The idea is that, if people were completely reliant on CC's, then they would most likely feel a compulsion to vote for protocol changes and would be given the means of doing so by moving their hashpower to different forks to achieve valid and shared consensus .. rather than looking at it from a solely profit-seeking perspective. Mining is being downplayed right now .. I think this is one perspective that has been lost (or perhaps outdated .. ?). AES fails random oracle - citation needed. PoW that is memory hard in latency/bandwidth seems to slow down computationally aggressive algorithms - the excessive complication is really only to serve the purpose of preserving a one cpu/one vote paradigm .. else there's no reason to be memory intensive (complicated) at all. Without that distinction, why not just have processors calculate the sum of one in a loop for any given time period?

-It would need to act as both a store of value, and instrument of transaction. See scalable.

-It cannot rely solely on one or a few individual points of technical support outside the protocol itself (but also commanded to operate by the protocol) that can lead to catastrophic systemic failure at any point in its existence, or for any extended length of time in such existence (one-time setup parameters etc ..); it must be able to provably function without these targetable physical anchors to events outside of the core software itself having ever existed. The only anchors it can be tethered by must be ubiquitous relative to the element of physical reality it is deployed in.

-It cannot process excess transactions at any particular localized point (no one point can be favored), be it logical on a network or concentrated in one geographic location. Concentrated points of potential malfunction are the easiest targets for any aggressor, and would undoubtedly be the first vector for an attack. Total distribution of transaction processing is required. A cross comparison here is that we already have logical locations where transactions are processed in 2014. Any bank is an extreme example of a centralized transaction processor; only, it concentrates funds as well as transactions (sound familiar?). During a bank run, the doors will be closed in the event of an attack. Specifically the point is that -- if there were an attack, not only will the localized transaction points be an attack surface for the aggressor .. they will also be an attack surface for the unwitting defender. Surely anything being attacked by two ideal forces will succumb to the assault. Would you feel comfortable with your funds in a different geographical location when they could be in your pocket during said attack?

-Blockchain needs to be pruned? - need sources about this, for science. Also mini-blockchain implementation?

-It would need to operate on as many types of processing hardware available. To the extent where mining with my toaster isn't out of the picture. The vote for consensus needs to be as representative as possible. I need to ask for more for myself than to be considered less than 3/5 of a person, no matter how right or wrong it makes me look. ASIC will need to be universally available upon creation -- the ability to make it ubiquitous will offset any gains it provides toward other hardware. This will most likely need to include low-level integration into pre-existing commodity hardware (far future), and short-term inexpensive deployment of suitable mining hardware (ant miner). On low level integration: Goods that can produce value will be able to offest any type of inflation/deflation based on the fact that they 'produce' value in addition to their intrinsic value. Example: cost of a keyboard that serves as a dual purpose ant miner will have a value that might be able to match future inflation/deflation - more thought needed on subject.

-All software involved will need to reach a level of refinement competitive with that which is offered by banks, paypal, windows, macintosh etc .. to the point where (you guessed it) grandma can do it and grandpa can do more than saying he can do it. To aim to replace that which you claim to replace, you must be able to compete on every level. One of the most important of which, after public release, is that of the end-user experience; however, the extent to which 'friendliness' is required is dictated heavily by the need and demand for the software in the first place.

-It would absolutely require well-funded developer(s). Rockets to Mars aren't fueled by hopes and dreams alone. Platforms like lighthouse/kickstarter need to be in place asap. Possible last resort reasonable premine/controlled emission (though this really does kill the whole idea of everyone paying the market price .. therefore possibly fungibility)? Keep in mind, people have dealt with Satoshi's (though arguably not a premine, just a solid example of a major developer funding) for years now, so it's strange that this is an issue. Perhaps because he's/they're not spending it?

-The wallet needs to exist in multiple forms, not just data on your computer (deterministic, physical etc ..). Keeping it in one form invites constant losses. To have many forms like water.

-It will also require support of a demographic that needs/wants anonymity. Specifically third parties going out of their way to be in line with the currency and the demographics views. Third parties offering private/anonymous solutions to things like marketplaces, exchanges and possibly even many mining pools will simply be out of reach for a core team. It requires participation .. and this is something that can be provided and possibly even coerced by both ideal parties. Perhaps some physiological catalyst could spur a drive for this.

-The mining, if PoW based, cannot be centralized, or at very least the ability to perform a 51% attack needs to be eliminated in total. This again falls back on if the world was reduced to using only CC's to transact, we'd have one global power dictating protocol changes through an inevitable miner takeover (assuming a 51% attack does not occur). Those on the winning team .. tend to stay on the winning team. Not to mention the whole possibility of infinite money issue.

-The value of one unit cannot be allowed to escalate toward infinity nor zero relative to the actual sum of value attributed by/to the demographic using it. It cannot be based solely on transaction fees. Bank income is 40% of its income (citation needed). Either way, the cross comparison here is that the p2p network is now your decentralized world bank .. it most likely would not be able to function on a small sum of value. Coins are lost through lost wallets, forgotten passwords/seeds, sending to wrong address. Fixed % inflation vs. fixed supply. A high debasement furthers adoption by keeping a distributed adoption model, see PoW argument. Debasement cannot outpace purchasing power.

The countdown timer for these requirements is most likely 1.25 years judging from sources provided by Anonymint.

I'll be adding things to this list as I come across them.

Further reading:

Good List of Articles
Is there any _true_ anonymous cryptocurrencies?

Thanks Smiley
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July 12, 2014, 01:42:03 AM
 #428

Shocked Dude..Even bitcoin is not immune to the NSA. thats too far fetched now imo....NSA and Quantam Compute immunity that so many people want, comes with time, implementing I2P is still a great start for any coin, NSA immunity and such can come after.....

Note this fork of the discussion is going on in the Monero thread. Let's continue it there.


Either the Monero developers don't intend to provide anonymity against the NSA

As I understood by having (proxy) discussions with them, this is the case. By not intending to provide such anonymity, they aim to hit the sweet spot of being the "corporate coin", because corporations are hesitant to enter into Bitcoin due to all their transactions being open for competitors.


That is a good point, except that as far as I calculate Monero can't scale.

There will still be market for NSA-proof coins, when/if such can be developed.

Especially if they can also scale.

However there would also potentially be a market for a NSA-friendly coin which can also scale, since mainstream corporations may not want to use the NSA-blinded coin.

I'll be adding things to this list as I come across them.

Astute list.

I assume it will arrive sooner than 1.25 years. Wink

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July 13, 2014, 01:23:23 AM
Last edit: July 13, 2014, 01:35:18 AM by AnonyMint
 #429

Cross-posting...

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=583449.msg7813210#msg7813210

The Global Police State

Global sovereign debt collapse (which means global wealth confiscation, war, chaos, and descending into the economic abyss).\

So ...are you really saying this will ruin every corner of the globe? if not then what portions are you talking about?
It's just that you keep mentioning Europe and America...but that's all you mention but you keep calling it "global".

So...is it global or is it just Europe and the USA?

The nations of the world are today mostly divided into five categories:

1. Developed country western Marxist socialism, government has 75% share of GDP (ditto Europe but worse as the official data excludes cost of regulation and probably local governments, etc!).

2. Developed country eastern Chaebol & Zaibatsu fascism, government has a moderate (but rising rapidly) (Korea also) % share of GDP.

3. Undeveloped world, "government spending" is very low thus a very low % share of GDP because there is no social welfare system.

4. Oil producing countries in the Middle East that will fall into complete chaos.

5. Exceptions.

For #1, include North America, Europe, New Zealand, but perhaps not Australia.

For #2, we have Japan with the world's highest debt-to-GDP levels as the prime example. Asians (but not Cherokee who descend from European not Asian) are more submissive (my hypothesis is perhaps due to lack of Ice Age impact thus larger populations). Japan has an existential fertility crisis. South Korea is on model peaking.



For #3, we have most of the rest of world.

For #4, include all those recently failed Middle East states and Libya and include all those whose economy is nearly entirely dependent on oil and who have burgeoning populations.

For #5, the exceptions to the above list include small transhipment and financial centers such as Hong Kong and Singapore, also Australia and Switzerland have relatively low government share of GDP for developed countries.

Prognosis

The #1 nations will hunt down all wealth to feed their social welfare obligations. The majority will support this. These nations will cooperate, and the NSA + GCHQ will feed the authorities the data they need.

The #2 nations have massive levels of debt in all sectors and will be induced into a war with China to appease the discontent among their people as their economies collapse into 2016 - 2020. The large corporation model of their economies is attuned to war making as a means of increasing industrial production.

The #3 nations have extremely high levels of corporate debt (China the world's highest) because the 30 year bond bubble in the #1 nations drove investment capital out of the west an into developing world corporate bonds to chase yield. They don't have this social welfare system to feed, thus they don't need to hunt down money for revenue (they can let their corporations go bust and survival of the fittest) so they can collapse quickly and bottom by say 2020. But they will hunt down wealth of those cronies in their governments who have pilfered the coffers. You can see this going on now for example as China fired 900 bureaucrats, Thailand in martial law,  and also the pork barrel scandal ongoing in the Philippines. So these nations need the cooperation of the #1 nations to track down and return the ill gotten wealth their cronies have been offshoring to there. Thus they will in exchange will offer to turn over all #1 nation citizens, i.e. see their cooperation with the FATCA.

The #4 nations are imploding into chaos as they are too dependent on oil, their populations are burgeoning, the corrupt top-down control of wealth has been egregious, etc.. They will implode into complete chaos. They thus may be the best place to hide with your wealth, except that you would be at enormous physical risk of harm.

The #5 nations will see their economies implode when the global economy does since they are so highly leveraged to trade and commodity demand. They are fully on board the global police state. Here are few links to convince you:

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-03-26/hong-kong-goes-swiss-will-disclose-american-worker-financial-data-irs
http://armstrongeconomics.com/2014/06/22/hunt-for-money-tisa-negotiations-leaked-by-wikileaks/


Thus you can see this hunt for wealth will be global. Only the peons in the undeveloping (developing) world are exempt.

Edit: I didn't cover some exceptions that may not fit (not sure as I don't have time to research every one) the above stereotypes, such as Iceland, Bolivia, and Ecuador. Two of those were countries Snowden was interested in for asylum.

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July 15, 2014, 02:52:42 PM
 #430

This is very preliminary, but it appears to me that all anonymous coins based on unlinkability will not be able to solve the very serious double-spend threat.

If am correct, this is both a major and fundamental solution for longest chain rule of proof-of-work, but it also eliminates unlinkability as a anonymity solution.

Sorry to say. Again this is preliminary, and needs more peer review.

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July 19, 2014, 02:34:46 AM
 #431

First a math point about relating adoption rate to price. Peter R confirmed upthread with a chart that proxies for adoption, N, are tracking price = N x N. And if adoption is growing by rate R per year, then it grows R x R rate in two years. Thus we can say that the annual rate of price increases is proportional to the biannual rate of adoption. You see when our Y axis is logarithmic (e.g. log 10 on chart Risto shows) then exponentiation becomes additive and thus linearly proportional.

So I've been FA thinking about why Bitcoin adoption is likely declining, i.e. as I showed a log-logistic curve fit...

Discussion on this continues in the Monero Economy thread.

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July 19, 2014, 04:21:02 AM
 #432

With all the competitors now in the same space that coinbase used to sit alone, it's easy to see why their expansion of users has slowed down. The more options the better IMO. I don't think overall adoption is slowing though.
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July 19, 2014, 10:10:36 PM
 #433

With all the competitors now in the same space that coinbase used to sit alone, it's easy to see why their expansion of users has slowed down. The more options the better IMO. I don't think overall adoption is slowing though.

I think anonymints posts show that adoption is stalling. But you'll have to dig through his prolific writings.

While awareness among above average individuals is now higher, there is still virtually no interest in either investing  or using it as bitcoin is not frictionless enough to acquire. It's a hassle to understand, secure and use. In its current form it offers nothing to the public unless you are a particularly devious (or clever) divorcee.

I see great things for crytpos in the future, but I think a lot of people are expecting unreasonable rates of adoption at this stage. And while I'd love to see more adoption, I still think that we are at best flat lining right now. Bitcoin needs to stabilise and focus on services, which of the latter I know is happening.

But due to flaws in the structure of bitcoin we are going towards a more centralised (see pool sizes) and controlled market. How much longer before the IMF has its own sanctified block chain or something to a similar effect? Interesting times.




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July 22, 2014, 06:41:58 PM
Last edit: July 23, 2014, 11:08:10 AM by AnonyMint
 #434

More detailed discussion on Monero's (CryptoNite's) proof-of-work hash design.

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July 22, 2014, 07:08:57 PM
 #435

Haven't read the entire thread but, as far as I can remember Zerocoin needed that you thrust a 3rd party to destroy the master key file which allows access to the entire blockchain thus allowing whoever has this to double spend indefinitely *without anyone ever finding out*, or something along the lines. This is why i've been big upping Monero and not any other of the anonymous alternatives i've seen thus far.

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July 23, 2014, 10:55:36 AM
Last edit: July 23, 2014, 11:06:00 AM by AnonyMint
 #436

Haven't read the entire thread but, as far as I can remember Zerocoin needed that you thrust a 3rd party to destroy the master key file which allows access to the entire blockchain thus allowing whoever has this to double spend indefinitely *without anyone ever finding out*, or something along the lines. This is why i've been big upping Monero and not any other of the anonymous alternatives i've seen thus far.

I have detailed post about that several pages upthread. Click "All" to show all thread pages, then Ctrl+F to search for "Zerocash" (not Zerocoin).


I am reading the Ethereum whitepaper, and I can begin with one observation— a (n infinite) loop can be implemented with (tail) recursion but recursion can't be implemented with a loop. So they demonstrate a lack of high-level semantic understanding of Turing-completeness, since yours truly defined Turing-completeness as the most concise statement, "unbounded recursion".

https://www.ethereum.org/pdfs/EthereumWhitePaper.pdf#page=12

Quote
Lack of Turing-completeness - that is to say, while there is a large subset of computation that the Bitcoin scripting language supports, it does not nearly support every thing. The main category that is missing is loops...

I do believe putting a Turing-complete language on the blockchain will allow viruses into the blockchain. I think it is impossible to avoid. I am interested to read further how they are planning to deal with this unavoidable ramification of Turing-completeness. Ultimately the only solution can be centralized authority (e.g. issuing certification to apps)— the antithesis of decentralized crypto-currency. Thus no wonder that Peter Thiel has already got his finger in the pie (another way he can centralize crypto-currency).

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July 23, 2014, 11:16:22 AM
 #437

With all the competitors now in the same space that coinbase used to sit alone, it's easy to see why their expansion of users has slowed down. The more options the better IMO. I don't think overall adoption is slowing though.
Generally speaking more competition means that there are more incentives for users to adopt bitcoin

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July 23, 2014, 11:32:09 AM
 #438

With all the competitors now in the same space that coinbase used to sit alone, it's easy to see why their expansion of users has slowed down. The more options the better IMO. I don't think overall adoption is slowing though.
Generally speaking more competition means that there are more incentives for users to adopt bitcoin

Bitcoin appears to have reached 20% of its maximum adoption already:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=597878.msg7919197#msg7919197
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=597878.msg7984471#msg7984471

Depending how you interpret the following chart:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=597878.msg7918177#msg7918177

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July 23, 2014, 11:53:12 AM
 #439

I am reading the Ethereum whitepaper, and I can begin with one observation— a (n infinite) loop can be implemented with (tail) recursion but recursion can't be implemented with a loop. So they demonstrate a lack of high-level semantic understanding of Turing-completeness, since yours truly defined Turing-completeness as the most concise statement, "unbounded recursion".

https://www.ethereum.org/pdfs/EthereumWhitePaper.pdf#page=12

Quote
Lack of Turing-completeness - that is to say, while there is a large subset of computation that the Bitcoin scripting language supports, it does not nearly support every thing. The main category that is missing is loops...

I do believe putting a Turing-complete language on the blockchain will allow viruses into the blockchain. I think it is impossible to avoid. I am interested to read further how they are planning to deal with this unavoidable ramification of Turing-completeness. Ultimately the only solution can be centralized authority (e.g. issuing certification to apps)— the antithesis of decentralized crypto-currency. Thus no wonder that Peter Thiel has already got his finger in the pie (another way he can centralize crypto-currency).

The Ethereum white paper explains how they will avoid infinite loops, but says nothing about how they propose to prevent viruses.

I also see that in addition to ongoing IPO set to raise $3+ million, the angel investors of Ethereum will receive 10% (9.9%) of that presumably taken as an extra premine.

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July 24, 2014, 12:18:38 AM
Last edit: July 24, 2014, 12:36:15 AM by AnonyMint
 #440

Ethereum has already sold 11.5 million ETH (was 7 million yesterday) sold at roughly $0.30 per ETH. So they've already raised $3.3 million, plus the whitepaper says they will additionally premine 9.9% of whatever that final amount is to be given to the founders and early angel investors. And there are 40 more days to go that this IPO premine will be open to investors.

(I wonder if they've done their legal requirements to comply with SEC regulations for non-qualified USA investors, could end up in legal trouble as what happened to some in the Bitcoin community who sold shares to non-qualified USA investors)

Plus the annual debasement will be 26% of what ever the premine from the IPO ends up being.

As I wrote upthread, it is appears Ethereum is getting the interest of Peter Thiel. And the only way to have Turing-complete apps on the blockchain without viruses is to have certification of each app by a centralized authority. Thus looks like this is the direction it will morph to over time. It won't be truly decentralized, because the apps will need to be vetted by an authority, although the apps will run decentralized after vetting. We can clearly see the powers-that-be are taking control over Bitcoin (one pool has 50% of the mining hashrate) and now on Bitcoin 2.0 concepts.

Note Charles Hoskinson originally tried to recruit me to work on Bitcoin 2.0 altcoin, and when I declined he hooked up with Vitalik Buterin. Someone told me Charles 'left' Ethereum. Look what happened to the last company he was forced out of bytemaster's Protoshares/Bitshares.

https://coinmarketcap.com/

So BitSharesX is in 7th place with a $20 million market cap after nearly a year of release.

Even the #3 coin (other than Bitcoin or Litecoin) is only at $50 million market cap. Thus even if Ethereum makes it to #3 within a year and if the IPO ends up being say $5 - $10 million (already at $3.3 million 1 day into the 42 day IPO), then the upside is only less than a 10 bagger in a year, unless somehow Ethereum surpasses Litecoin in that short time frame (not likely!). Also the actual release won't come until late 2014 or early 2015, so it will be 1.5 years before seeing that level.

Realistically it is looking that gains on Ethereum will be in the realm of less than 100% per annum. And there is a lot of technical risk of snafus and failure.

This doesn't appear to be a good risk versus reward investment.

Some other faster moving altcoin will come along in the interim time and take away the momentum of Ethereum.

But I could be wrong and it surpasses Litecoin quickly (but I still think that is not likely).

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