The Official Mastercoin Foundation, Master Protocol & Mastercoin Thread

[crypto era]

What dacoinminster is saying about bitcoin is all valid. What he didn't point out was that there wasn't really anything else like it that people could flock too. Also didn't have the amount of people in crypto currencies. There's Counterparty which is doing what mastercoin is doing and plans to do. It's already implemented and doing it better. No one really doubts your plans, people are mad about how there being executed. Everybody, if not I want to know why they did it extremely faster and why Mastercoin couldn't.

[hmmmstrange]

I see people here assuming I am selling. I AM NOT. I HAVE NOT. My last sale was in February to a private individual. I have NEVER sold on the open market.

I'm sticking with my plan which I announced in January: http://blog.mastercoin.org/2014/01/24/j-r-coming-full-time/

My only deviation from that plan is that I have NOT been using MSC to pay my expenses, because I haven't liked the price since then.

Our loose cannon, whom I mentioned earlier, had sold only 20% of his holdings the last time I checked in with him. I don't know if he caused this most recent drop, but it wouldn't surprise me. We had a rather acrimonious clash over this issue recently, and I don't plan to raise the issue again - it's outside my control.

We're working on improving Omniwallet, we have a cross-platform wallet proof-of-concept, and we have a dozen major projects releasing MSC tokens over the coming months (I heard David Johnston say he'll post the list soon). Our next major MSC feature will be distributed exchange between MSC and these tokens, which will have a double-sided order book and an inherently better user experience than BTC/MSC distributed exchange.

The current MSC price is just silly, IMHO, but I thought the same thing about bitcoin when it sunk from $30 to $5 in 2011, but it didn't bottom out until $2, so I obviously can't call a bottom precisely. I CAN say I feel sorry for people selling here. I consider them in the same light as the people who gave up on bitcoin in 2011.

You offered your coins on the open market! You saying that you did not sell on the open market is bullshit. You offered 3% of the total MSC coins on the open market. Surprise, you crashed the market and no one purchased them at your inflated price.

[dacoinminster]

Sorry, I should have said "I have never sold on an exchange". My point is that people on this forum have been saying "J.R. is selling" which is NOT TRUE. I'm HOLDING, and have been since February. I'm the ultimate insider, and I see cool stuff coming down the pipeline, and I know selling now would be the height of stupidity.

The atmosphere about bitcoin as it crashed and burned in 2011 was downright poisonous. Only a smattering of people with cast-iron stomachs held onto their bitcoins completely, because we KNEW the technology was worth far more than the market was valuing it at. I didn't sell one measly bitcoin into that crash. As far as I could tell, 90% of people thought bitcoin was dead, and moved on to other things. Most of the people who still believed in bitcoin talked like lunatics. And yet, every time I worked through the logic, I saw the potential still there, so I held. If I could have convinced my wife, I would have bought more.

I didn't sell any bitcoin in the subsequent run-up, or the following crash. The only thing I was willing to spend my bitcoins on was a higher protocol layer built on top of bitcoin, and that is what I did.

Mastercoin was designed to be MORE deflationary than bitcoin. That means bigger crashes, and bigger price explosions. So far, everything is going exactly as I imagined. If you don't like the ride, maybe you should find some nice "safe" government bonds.

[hmmmstrange]

JR are you willing to burn your bonus msc, as you stated you would be investing late in the ipo as not to accept a large bonus?

[Matt Y]

Would you mind explaining or linking to something that explains why a deflationary currency will have "bigger crashes" than a currency that's inflationary?

Thanks.

[dacoinminster]

Would you mind explaining or linking to something that explains why a deflationary currency will have "bigger crashes" than a currency that's inflationary?

Thanks.

Sure, although I should mention that being deflationary isn't the only factor. I believe the biggest factor which drives large price swings is of course risk, and Mastercoin is highly risky. I think we can all agree that bitcoin is absurdly speculative, and that experimental bitcoin 2.0 currencies are more speculative than bitcoin? I sure hope nobody sees these investments as likely to hold a stable value.

Being more deflationary also matters a lot though. The logic is pretty straightforward.

1) Deflationary currencies reward early adopters, in proportion to how early they were
2) The number of early adopters of any new currency is always going to be very small in comparison to the eventual user base if it is successful.
3) A small number of people who hold most of a currency = volatility

Obviously, it's not the only variable, but if you hold all other variables equal, more deflationary = more volatile.

[aeternum.in]

Sorry, I should have said "I have never sold on an exchange". My point is that people on this forum have been saying "J.R. is selling" which is NOT TRUE. I'm HOLDING, and have been since February. I'm the ultimate insider, and I see cool stuff coming down the pipeline, and I know selling now would be the height of stupidity.

What would be nice then, is if things could be organized well enough so that the rest of us have a bit more of a view of what is in the pipeline. I understand not wanting to lose sleep over always addressing the community but there's got to be someplace organized well enough where we can chat amongst ourselves and get clear info. :-) As someone else mentioned- in 2011 bitcoin was the horse in town. You either rode or you didn't ride at all. Times are a bit different now. There is a lot of talent that is risked being siphoned into other projects. Not to mention it's only a matter of time before banks see the benefit of mastercoin type projects. If there isn't an ecosystem strong enough to warrant plugging into- nothing to stop banks from just taking it, coming up with their own exodus address and doing it themselves....

[dacoinminster]

What would be nice then, is if things could be organized well enough so that the rest of us have a bit more of a view of what is in the pipeline. I understand not wanting to lose sleep over always addressing the community but there's got to be someplace organized well enough where we can chat amongst ourselves and get clear info. :-)

I wish somebody had recorded the demo our devs gave of the cross-platform wallet proof of concept. It was sweeeet.

As someone else mentioned- in 2011 bitcoin was the horse in town. You either rode or you didn't ride at all. Times are a bit different now. There is a lot of talent that is risked being siphoned into other projects. Not to mention it's only a matter of time before banks see the benefit of mastercoin type projects. If there isn't an ecosystem strong enough to warrant plugging into- nothing to stop banks from just taking it, coming up with their own exodus address and doing it themselves....

Yeah. That's what people have been saying about bitcoin for years. Not saying it couldn't happen, but there are a huge number of regulatory barriers for a bank or other conventional finance instrument to do this. If they DO, they almost certainly lose the decentralization, which is losing the whole point.

[bitwhizz]

What we want to know JR, is progress,
when is the smart property contracts being released,
when are betting features being released,
when is distributed e commerce being released
also how in the hell did counterparty beat you guys in developmental progress?

[aeternum.in]

What would be nice then, is if things could be organized well enough so that the rest of us have a bit more of a view of what is in the pipeline. I understand not wanting to lose sleep over always addressing the community but there's got to be someplace organized well enough where we can chat amongst ourselves and get clear info. :-)

I wish somebody had recorded the demo our devs gave of the cross-platform wallet proof of concept. It was sweeeet.

Exactly what I'm talking about! Lets see some of these demo's- even if it's just an Adobe Voice presentation from an Ipad. Keep us hyped! :-)

As someone else mentioned- in 2011 bitcoin was the horse in town. You either rode or you didn't ride at all. Times are a bit different now. There is a lot of talent that is risked being siphoned into other projects. Not to mention it's only a matter of time before banks see the benefit of mastercoin type projects. If there isn't an ecosystem strong enough to warrant plugging into- nothing to stop banks from just taking it, coming up with their own exodus address and doing it themselves....

Yeah. That's what people have been saying about bitcoin for years. Not saying it couldn't happen, but there are a huge number of regulatory barriers for a bank or other conventional finance instrument to do this. If they DO, they almost certainly lose the decentralization, which is losing the whole point.

Yes and no I think. With bitcoin, yeah- it would lose the decentralization. But not so with mastercoin, which is the brilliance of it. You don't need hash power to prevent a 51% attack, you don't need anything but your own reputation to back whatever asset you're offering. A bank could say, "Lets do commercial paper swaps with Mastercoin". They look around, there's not a well established enough existing infrastructure, so they go, "Okay, well no harm in just starting over." All the tools work just as fine with a different exodus address (as I understand). With Bitcoin, you've got to compete with the hashpower infrastructure, with Meta-chains like Mastercoin, you don't have that. It's going to be all reputation- because, unless I'm missing something, the only difference between using mastercoin or counter party or rolling your own is the community using it. So it's really going to be an all-community coin. That's the "hash power" sort of speak. The community using it. So lets engage more with the community! Get our hash rate up. :-)

[Bitoy]

We're working on improving Omniwallet, we have a cross-platform wallet proof-of-concept, and we have a dozen major projects releasing MSC tokens over the coming months (I heard David Johnston say he'll post the list soon). Our next major MSC feature will be distributed exchange between MSC and these tokens, which will have a double-sided order book and an inherently better user experience than BTC/MSC distributed exchange.

+1 on listing OF upcoming major projects releasing MSC Tokens.

 metadex order matching looks very exiting.  Looking forward to see it work in omni wallet and master wallet.

[aeternum.in]

You know, honestly, why not just pay for a forum service, so that people who should be doing real mastercoin work aren't drawn into running web applications needlessly. Get something that plugs into facebook/social media, has all the bells and whisles, and then pay a snappy graphic designer to do the design and viola. Even if it's $50 a month, JR, it's totally worth it. Honestly- you should just do it and set all this bickering between people here about not getting signup emails (Still havent' received one) etc....... Good leaders know how to delegate and know when to outsource. :-)

[Bitoy]

info. :-) As someone else mentioned- in 2011 bitcoin was the horse in town. You either rode or you didn't ride at all. Times are a bit different now. There is a lot of talent that is risked being siphoned into other projects.

Mastercoin was the first horse out the gate (bitcoin 2 race).  But other horses have caught up and gaining But it's still a long way to go.

[aeternum.in]

info. :-) As someone else mentioned- in 2011 bitcoin was the horse in town. You either rode or you didn't ride at all. Times are a bit different now. There is a lot of talent that is risked being siphoned into other projects.

Mastercoin was the first horse out the gate (bitcoin 2 race).  But other horses have caught up and gaining But it's still a long way to go.

I am particularly worried about Ethereum as they look seriously organized (as well as MaidSafe). So far I think none of the technologies out there: Mastercoin, NXT, Counterparty have hit any sort of network effect so the playing field is quickly becoming a marathon. So I guess we see....

[TraderTimm]

Would you mind explaining or linking to something that explains why a deflationary currency will have "bigger crashes" than a currency that's inflationary?

Thanks.

Sure, although I should mention that being deflationary isn't the only factor. I believe the biggest factor which drives large price swings is of course risk, and disastercoin is highly risky. I think we can all agree that bitcoin is absurdly speculative, and that experimental bitcoin 2.0 currencies are more speculative than bitcoin? I sure hope nobody sees these investments as likely to hold a stable value.

Being more deflationary also matters a lot though. The logic is pretty straightforward.

1) Deflationary currencies reward early adopters, in proportion to how early they were
2) The number of early adopters of any new currency is always going to be very small in comparison to the eventual user base if it is successful.
3) A small number of people who hold most of a currency = volatility

Obviously, it's not the only variable, but if you hold all other variables equal, more deflationary = more volatile.

Oh sweet tap-dancing satoshi on a pile of Bitcoin, this really takes the cake.

Talk about misunderstanding market dynamics, sigmoid-function of adoption, not  to mention the characteristics of such "volatile" trading eventually re-distributing Bitcoin to an even wider audience as it progresses, much like the diffusion of molecules in a closed environment.

A deflationary currency == volatility? Are you absolutely bonkers? That's something a misinformed Economist would spew. I'm honestly surprised its coming out of your mouth.

If that were true, then Bitcoin should be SO volatile that nobody would want to use it, even for speculation. But I suppose I shouldn't be surprised someone who is trying to bootstrap their own personal wealth pile off of Bitcoin's success has trouble connecting the dots, you're a bit too close to your own retirement nest egg, as it were.

Keep up the posts, I'm running out of popcorn, and the obvious lack of understanding by JR of anything other than an IDE is absolutely hilarious.

[DGulari]

On thinly traded markets....

Mastercoin is traded on MasterXChange.com.  The volume is very, very low - a thinly traded market.  
Sellers
   Some traders there are selling Mastercoin they received as developers for the protocol.  They need money to pay their bills.  Lately, the price of MSC has been significantly driven lower.  There are plenty of 'coins' available for sale as several people counted on selling MSC to pay for their daily expenses (supply).  
Buyers
   There are very few new buyers.  In part, this is due to the fact that the Mastercoin team is fully engaged with development and totally uninterested about 'pump and dump' marketing schemes.  Mastercoin has not made any real attempt to 'attract' new participants to use the protocol but rather have concentrated on getting the protocol ready for some more serious use.  There are almost no new 'investors' (demand).  

   Because of this 'supply/demand' mismatch in this thinly traded market, the price is wildly out-of-line with the true value of Mastercoin.  Nearly all original investors remain bullish about the potential for success in this system.  People who hold Mastercoin remain very optimistic and still value their MSC quite high.  After just a few successes, the price will snap back up to a point which more closely reflects what the true believers of MasterProtocol estimate the value to be.  

   Basically, anyone selling today is selling VERY cheap Mastercoin.  They are likely getting 1/10th what 95% of MSC holders actually value the coin for.  This is due to the fact that this isn't the stock market with hundreds of thousands of participants, but rather, we are in a very thinly traded market.  People who sell at this point are getting ripped-off big time.  They are giving their MSC away cheap.  

   Those who cried when the coin was at .25 about having 'missed the boat' should remember this moment.  When MSC returns to sky high values, we are going to say you had your chance to pick them up cheap.  

   MSC is extremely cheap now.

[RawDog]

Oh sweet tap-dancing satoshi on a pile of Bitcoin, this really takes the cake.

Talk about misunderstanding market dynamics

You are a moron of very high order.  Your writing is complete bullshit. 

[vokain]

Hi everyone,

Please take a few minutes to read this open letter. Any constructive feedback is welcome!

Ron
Executive Director, Mastercoin Foundation

Since this is something that will affect all MasterProtocol users, past, present and future, this is an open request for feedback regarding which direction we have to choose on whether or not to accept BTC directly in fundraisers. The tradeoff with directly allowing Bitcoin concerns decoupling the utility of the MSC token for open walls that would probably increase utility of the actual protocol by allowing BTC-direct fundraisers.


Here's a quote on the info@mastercoin.org mailing list from Jeremy Kandeh that for the most part mirrors my own personal views:

Ok guys there is a viewpoint in this thread that giving things away for free isn't a good business model. The best business model ever created by humans is google search which is an absolutely free service for consumers.

It did have a competitor that it beat which was aol and their keyword system. Aol kept a walled garden and had restrictions for their platform and it drove the internet to make a more free platform that anyone could use.

This is how I feel w mastercoin and why I'd like to push us to open up the walls and get the land grab of user generated assets.

And here's a quote from Sam Yilmaz, who is addressing the other long-term end game of the two decisions:

Let me talk some market sense here.

-Just because Chrysler, the car company would like to get a better adoption does not mean they give away their products for free. If they are to host R&D and make better cars for the good of the public they need to charge so they can the production and value-add going. ( keep people like peter employed too)

-Once a service is offered for free by anyone unless there is a premium value in their service a competitor will need to also offer it for free

-Once a service is offered for free by a merchant you can't go back to charging for it. In this regard price reduction is irreversible however much we debate it.

Follow the logice here:If you want adoption, you want good service. If you want good service you need money to fuel it. In our case if we are to compensate the developers and( archive ) nodes in MSC, future we better make sure that the service providers are compensated in tokens with value. If you need value in a token, there should be demand for it. If you want demand for the token you need to be able to give something in return to it.

Lets make it clear how mastercoins will be able to offer access to services that cannot be acquired for free.

Thought exercises GO

[jeroenn13]

If its possible I think you should be able to find a 3rd way between monetizing Mastercoin and make it free.
This could be done by exchange listing (Which is important to me and Mastercoin holders) and creation of smart property free. You should compare the competition and decide which options to make free and which option to charge a small fee.

Thank you for the open letter.
Jeroenn13

[romerun]

I happily sold my Mastercoins.
The only way is to make the protocol as free as possible.
There is alot of competition going on.

Good luck deciding.

For sure, it reminds me of apple and android. If mastercoin could build things that others could not, it makes senses to use the lock-in model. But in this technology as we know it, does not take much to catch up, besides mastercoin does no longer lead.