How to use dice and a Seedsigner to make a seed phrase (with pictures)

[NotATether]

Note: This guide is adapted from the video posted by @DocumentingBitcoin on X. I did not make this video.

The source: https://x.com/DocumentingBTC/status/2083895871364608178

Prerequisites: A Seedsigner, five dice (but any amount will do), a sharpie and a piece of paper.

We are going to roll the dice 50 times to make a 12-word seed phrases. As in 50 dice rolls need to be made, not literally every dice has to be rolled 50 times.

Make sure you are using casino dice or some other balanced type of dice to eliminate bias.

1. Power on the SeedSigner

Plug the Seedsigner with a micro-USB cable to a power source somewhere, turn it on, and make sure there are no cameras or any recording things pointing at the device.



2. Access the dice rolls menu

From the main menu, go to Seeds -> Create a seed -> new seed (the one with a dice icon)



You are going to choose between 12 words and 24 words. 12 words requires 50 rolls as I explained, and 24 rolls needs 99 rolls.



Also accept the warning displayed that the seed must stay secret.

3. Roll and enter entropy

Roll the dice and enter each number on the device using the joystick/buttons. Just roll it one at a time, don't re-arrange the dice rolls into some silly order. The screen will show the progress (e.g. "Dice roll 23/50" for "Enter the 23rd dice roll")



When it is done, the Seedsigner will generate a list of words like this:



4. Write the seed phrase

You use the sharpie to write it on a paper, or use metal backup plates so that you don't have to deal with torn paper later.


DON'T USE THIS SEED - IT'S FOR EXAMPLE PURPOSES ONLY

After you generate it, you can use the Seedsigner to export an xpub or zpub via QR for a watch only wallet on some other software. xpub is for legacy addresses (starting with "1") and zpub is for native segwit addresses (starting with "bc1q").

[Mia Chloe]

~snip

Thumbs up for the tutorial. Just like I thought, this last attack is gonna pull a lot of attention to entropy in seed generation. I think the big question now is can we really trust random number generators or manual die rolls? Basically almost all wallet softwares defaultly use random number generation. Straight up it sounds like a small set of events to consider as a universal set for the seed generation but if you read up how most work you find other smaller attributes to those numbers like mouse movements...

On the other hand dies seem safe but for some reason it looks like a small universal set compared to random number generation because of the other uncertain attributes. Then again considering up to 50 die rolls also seems like a fine entropy too chances of getting same roll 50 times is literally (1/6)^50×5. Now I'm thinking will it still be of same entropy if a program is stimulating die rolls?

[Meuserna]

I'd say this: Use 100 dice rolls and 2 different hardware wallets. A SeedSigner and a Krux, for example. This lets you confirm that you get the same mnemonic on both using the same entropy.

[dkbit98]

For people who don't have dices they can also be printed and made at home if you have 3d printer.
However, I would be careful recommending dices to everyone, since people lost money using dices and generating weak entropy.
Comibnation of seedsigner and dices is good, and I prefer using physical dices.

[Meuserna]

For people who don't have dices they can also be printed and made at home if you have 3d printer.
However, I would be careful recommending dices to everyone, since people lost money using dices and generating weak entropy.
Comibnation of seedsigner and dices is good, and I prefer using physical dices.

Another option is to print the BIP39 word list.

Print it in columns to fit more words on each page. Chop it up so each slip of paper has 1 word. Any imperfections in terms of how you cut up the paper just increase your randomness since you're the only one using your paper.

Dump it all in a large mixing bowl. Pick a word. Write it down. Put the word back in the bowl and mix again. Do this 23 times.

You'll know for a fact your first 23 words are random, because you did the work.

Let the hardware wallet calculate the 24th word. It isn't a security risk to let a hardware wallet calculate the 24th word since only 7 or 8 words out of the entire 2048 word list will form a valid checksum for a 24 word seed phrase.

For the ultimate security... when you're done generating your seed, shuffle the bowl and pick 10 more words. That's your passphrase. 10 words from a list of 2048? Uncrackable.

[NotATether]

Another option is to print the BIP39 word list.

Print it in columns to fit more words on each page. Chop it up so each slip of paper has 1 word. Any imperfections in terms of how you cut up the paper just increase your randomness since you're the only one using your paper.

Dump it all in a large mixing bowl. Pick a word. Write it down. Put the word back in the bowl and mix again. Do this 23 times.

You'll know for a fact your first 23 words are random, because you did the work.

Let the hardware wallet calculate the 24th word. It isn't a security risk to let a hardware wallet calculate the 24th word since only 7 or 8 words out of the entire 2048 word list will form a valid checksum for a 24 word seed phrase.

For the ultimate security... when you're done generating your seed, shuffle the bowl and pick 10 more words. That's your passphrase. 10 words from a list of 2048? Uncrackable.

They would have to be engraved in metal and have the corners grooved so that you don't cut your fingers or the words while mixing the bowl.

That sounds like a good business idea for Coinkite someone who wants to pursue this idea...

[Meuserna]

Another option is to print the BIP39 word list.

Print it in columns to fit more words on each page. Chop it up so each slip of paper has 1 word. Any imperfections in terms of how you cut up the paper just increase your randomness since you're the only one using your paper.

Dump it all in a large mixing bowl. Pick a word. Write it down. Put the word back in the bowl and mix again. Do this 23 times.

You'll know for a fact your first 23 words are random, because you did the work.

Let the hardware wallet calculate the 24th word. It isn't a security risk to let a hardware wallet calculate the 24th word since only 7 or 8 words out of the entire 2048 word list will form a valid checksum for a 24 word seed phrase.

For the ultimate security... when you're done generating your seed, shuffle the bowl and pick 10 more words. That's your passphrase. 10 words from a list of 2048? Uncrackable.

They would have to be engraved in metal and have the corners grooved so that you don't cut your fingers or the words while mixing the bowl.

There's no need for the words you're using to pick the entropy to be in metal.

Your physical backup is what needs to be in metal, in case of fire.

That sounds like a good business idea for Coinkite someone who wants to pursue this idea...

It already exists, courtesy of BTC Hardware Solutions. They call it "Entropia." It's awesome.

[Cricktor]

To make dice roll execution easier and avoid possible bias by how the user actually rolls the dice, I like the recommendation from https://kdmukai-bot.github.io/seedsigner-ai-analysis/dice/standard.html to use a box in which you shake your dice with enough vigor and bouncing around.

So, place five or ten dice in a box of suitable size, a cardboard box is fine, shake the closed box enough (no dice flying around or jumping of a suitable surface when tossed a bit too hard), lay down and open the box, read dice from left to right.

You can use casino-grade dice, but normal quality dice are totally sufficient. So, it's no big deal to use e.g. 10 dice by choosing the latter. I would avoid printing own dice with a 3D printer, that's nonsense in my opinion.

[dkbit98]

Another option is to print the BIP39 word list.

Print it in columns to fit more words on each page. Chop it up so each slip of paper has 1 word. Any imperfections in terms of how you cut up the paper just increase your randomness since you're the only one using your paper.

This is time consuming, or to say better this is overkill waste of time.
BIP39 list have 2048 words so you would need a loooot of time cutting all this up with scissors.
I guess you could give this to kids, but they could slice up words, and make a big mess.
Dices are much cleaner and faster method, but I have nothing against if someone wants to be being entropy fanatic.