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Author Topic: BIP-110 Split  (Read 1464 times)
Wind_FURY
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August 30, 2026, 02:02:37 PM
Merited by stwenhao (1)
 #81

Between their release candidate 2 and release candidate 3 they cut the block size limit to 1/5th (so 800kwu maximum, typical block sizes of around 400kbytes), without any meaningful disclosure until after their HF chain was under way as far as I can tell.  Doesn't appear that there is any published source control history for these changes either.

Luke apparently believed no disclosure or discussion was necessary because a blocksize max for block creation of 300kb has been the default in knots for a long time.  Or maybe no human even knew that change was made: the whole project is vibe coded.  Grin

...and then there is the fact that they announced their POW fork chain would begin September 1st, but began it two days early with hardly any notice and a completely dysfunctional network that already reorged out the first mined blocks because the only people who can participate are ones who join the discord and ask for compatible peers to addnode, or they'll be islanded because their fork doesn't implement any peer discovery of compatible peers.


He always was saying in the past that Bitcoin's blocks needed to be smaller to 300kb, no? Now he truly got to make that happen.

Plus one of my Bitcoin friends told me that he "stepped down" as CEO of Ocean Mining, and that he's not affiliated with the company anymore. Was he thrown out?

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August 30, 2026, 02:15:45 PM
Merited by nutildah (1), stwenhao (1)
 #82

What happened to the forked chain? Where did all these new blocks come from? They could barely mine the first ten blocks for almost a month, and now suddenly it's pumping out up to two blocks a minute at times. Where did they get that much computing power?



Or did they decide to go for a full-on hard fork and switch to a different mining algorithm?

 
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August 30, 2026, 02:47:39 PM
Last edit: August 30, 2026, 03:16:17 PM by athanred
 #83

Quote
What happened to the forked chain?
They just hard-forked silently, to have everything ready for September, and avoid another failure, if anything would go wrong.

Also, your post is yet another proof, that most users care only about block explorers, and there are not that many node runners, or even SPV clients, because otherwise you would still see the same SHA-256 chain, as all unupgraded clients can see.

Quote
He always was saying in the past that Bitcoin's blocks needed to be smaller to 300kb, no?
If we would have proper second layers, transaction batching, and cut-through automatically enforced on protocol level, then maybe even 100 kB would be more than enough. But instead, we are still in this early stage, where each user needs several UTXOs on the first layer, so instead Bitcoin is scaling through centralized exchanges, and other custodians, just because it doesn't scale on the protocol level to billions of users.

Imagine billions of users using a chain with 4 MB per block, in the way it is used today, where each user has one or more UTXOs. It would instantly explode to gigabytes of waiting transactions. However, note that if you have the same coin, passed millions of times, then you only need to know, where it starts, and where it ends, and all in-between traffic can be kept only by interested parties; the network can only validate it, and then prune it, by keeping only the minimal information, like "who owned it previously, and who owns it now".

Also, if you have billions of users, then you no longer have one user per UTXO. You have a huge multisig on both sides instead. Then, there is one 1000-of-1000 multisig on one side, and another huge multisig on another side, and the whole transaction can take less than a kilobyte, because it has the same form, as a single user, sending coins to a single recipient. Then, a single Schnorr signature can handle thousands of users. And now you have a choice: to help making it possible in a decentralized way, or to wait for exchanges, and other third parties, to handle exactly the same thing, but in a custodial way.

Note that when Satoshi wrote about scaling in the whitepaper, he only counted 80 byte block headers. Everything else he wanted to prune in that way or another, to let the network scale.

Quote
Was he thrown out?
Is it surprising? He wrote a code, that forked from the original chain for no reason, while everyone told him months in advance, how the minority chain would behave. And later, more and more people started developing solutions, which would achieve the same or even better spam resistance, without any forks at all: https://sambitcoin.github.io/BitcoinMonetaryNode/

And now, not only he competes with altcoins, using the same mining algorithm, which he hard-forked into, but he also created an unnecessary competition, by not using SHA-256, which is why all of that hashrate he convinced to signal for BIP-110, will be now redirected into mining BTC, or Bitcoin Purity, or other SHA-256 forks.

But well, if you believe, that miners will signal, just because you wish them to, then you have to face the consequences later, if they don't.
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August 30, 2026, 02:49:57 PM
 #84

Quote
What happened to the forked chain?
They just hard-forked silently, to have everything ready for September, and avoid another failure, if anything would go wrong.

Also, your post is yet another proof, that most users care only about block explorers, and there are not that many node runners, or even SPV clients, because otherwise you would still see the same SHA-256 chain, as all unupgraded clients can see.

And also, while I don't expect forked BTC to be valuable by any means, the coins likely cannot even be claimed safely on the BIP110 chain, because the exact same transaction can be replayed for your BTC itself.

It's another nail in the coffin for BIP110.

 
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August 30, 2026, 03:00:18 PM
Merited by internetional (2)
 #85

Quote
the coins likely cannot even be claimed safely on the BIP110 chain
They can be, if you know, what is blocked by BIP-110, and what is not. Just make a self-transfer, and then you can split your coins, for example by using P2PK, or 84 bytes in OP_RETURN, or using anything else they blocked in their BIP.

Also, I don't know how many times I have to link to my splitted coins, to show people, that it is possible: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5590674.msg67025339#msg67025339

If you think I did it incorrectly, then go on, and unsplit my coins, by replaying my transactions.
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August 30, 2026, 03:18:21 PM
Merited by ABCbits (1), stwenhao (1)
 #86

.....
Plus one of my Bitcoin friends told me that he "stepped down" as CEO of Ocean Mining, and that he's not affiliated with the company anymore. Was he thrown out?


https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/joint-statement-of-ocean-and-luke-dashjr-302864347.html?tc=eml_cleartime


After swearing I was going to drop paying attention to all this 110 crap for a few days I pop in and see all of what happened.
Ah well, back outside to enjoy the weather.

-Dave

 
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August 30, 2026, 08:14:21 PM
 #87

...and then there is the fact that they announced their POW fork chain would begin September 1st, but began it two days early with hardly any notice and a completely dysfunctional network that already reorged out the first mined blocks because the only people who can participate are ones who join the discord and ask for compatible peers to addnode, or they'll be islanded because their fork doesn't implement any peer discovery of compatible peers.

Wait, wait, wait...I missed all the drama and the launch and the fireworks?
Now only I'm demoralized about missing all this, but I'm also annoyed by this since it does mean that Luke&Co took advantage of this to mine early on their chain with no competition, which goes against my previous assumption that he just went crazy and he was not doing it for financial reasons. But then again...why did he do it, cause mimicking Tywin Lannister here, 1,10 or 1000, the answer on how much they are worth is the same.

Anyhow, the change adjustment happened at block 961640, 14 hours later we're at 961880, that gives him about 17 blocks per hour, so 3 times the average, if a lot of "plebs" missed this it will just go up, so a new adjustment will happen in just 3-4 days.
Maybe he will pocket himself 500 blocks of rewards, 1500 lukecoins....two pizzas?

Can anyone translate the difficulty they are mining at in asic power spent? I think I'm using the wrong equivalent in hahsrate as my assumption doesn't look credible at all....






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August 30, 2026, 08:18:15 PM
 #88

Why not introduce a fork going to a true CPU or GPU algo? Blake2b already has Asic miners. That would be a free, everyone in the world can contribute especially with CPUs Blockchain. Maybe  Autolykos (GPU) or RandomX (CPU)
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August 30, 2026, 11:21:39 PM
Merited by nutildah (1), stwenhao (1)
 #89

Why not introduce a fork going to a true CPU or GPU algo? Blake2b already has Asic miners. That would be a free, everyone in the world can contribute especially with CPUs Blockchain. Maybe  Autolykos (GPU) or RandomX (CPU)
Because Luke decided that ASIC resistance is impossible.  (... you can imagine him making this edict while sitting atop a couple blake2b miners he got for free in exchange for working on their firmware... Tongue )

Of all his random beliefs and edicts it's not one of his least well founded...  An AMD cpu is also an "asic miner" -- but you can't compete with the couple big makers without huge funding and some solution to a helluva patent thicket.
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Today at 04:27:04 AM
 #90

Quote
Why not introduce a fork going to a true CPU or GPU algo?
There are many altcoins, which went into that, and ASICs appeared, when there were enough incentives to make them. It is only a matter of time.

In general, they shouldn't switch from SHA-256 to anything else, but well, their coins, their choices. Now, all of that hardware, which signalled for BIP-110, is mining Bitcoin Purity, BTC, or other SHA-256 chains, because that's the only thing they were designed to do. Which means, that by changing the algorithm, they just told their supporters, with all of their hardware: "please mine other coins, it is useless on our chain".

Quote
Blake2b already has Asic miners.
Not only that: they also enabled Merged Mining. Which is a good idea in itself, but you have to trace the heaviest chain properly, otherwise it can be attacked in exactly the same way, as Luke attacked CoiledCoin in the past.

Quote
That would be a free, everyone in the world can contribute especially with CPUs Blockchain.
There were many "CPU-only" chains, where the difficulty exploded, when they were listed on any exchange, and then dropped immediately, when people sold enough coins for BTCs.

Also, having a heavy hash function at the level of block headers is a drawback. Because then, you can have for example a few GB of transactions in your chain, and it can take more than in BTC, to do Initial Blockchain Download, because of effort you need, to verify all headers.

In general, if you have for example the difficulty, where mining 10 leading zero bits is hard, then verifying 1024 blocks is as difficult, as mining a new block. And then, your "CPU-only" chain starts dying, when verification is less profitable than mining, and when the power needed to verify the chain is as high, as mining some new blocks.
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Today at 08:29:37 AM
 #91

Or did they decide to go for a full-on hard fork and switch to a different mining algorithm?

Do they also change maximum block size and block time? That website shows block mined less than 10 minutes and have size below 300KB. It's so confusing when latest Bitcoin Knots binary/version released 3 weeks ago.

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Today at 08:39:11 AM
Merited by DaveF (2)
 #92

.....
Plus one of my Bitcoin friends told me that he "stepped down" as CEO of Ocean Mining, and that he's not affiliated with the company anymore. Was he thrown out?


https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/joint-statement-of-ocean-and-luke-dashjr-302864347.html?tc=eml_cleartime


After swearing I was going to drop paying attention to all this 110 crap for a few days I pop in and see all of what happened.

Ah well, back outside to enjoy the weather.

-Dave


I give you one more post to pay attention to,



    

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Today at 08:41:21 AM
 #93

Do they also change maximum block size and block time? That website shows block mined less than 10 minutes and have size below 300KB. It's so confusing when latest Bitcoin Knots binary/version released 3 weeks ago.
It seems so.
There is something completely strange going on with the blocks there. Here is how mempool.guide interprets one of the latest blocks mined in the forked network (at height 962178).

I see something similar happening in other recent blocks as well.

 
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Today at 09:12:08 AM
 #94

Quote
Do they also change maximum block size and block time?
They changed the block size from 4 MB to 800 kB. Which means, that if blocks had around 1.5 MB in practice, filled with regular transactions, then they will have around 300 kB now.

But in theory, it could be possible to push 800 kB of data, in a BIP-110 compatible way. Which gives yet another way to split the coins: if you make for example 1 MB non-standard transaction on BTC, then it won't be replayed on their BIP-110 chain.

Quote
That website shows block mined less than 10 minutes
I guess they picked some starting difficulty, and it was not yet adjusted. Time will tell, how fast their chain will move in the long-term. Anyway: by having lower difficulty than the real one, early adopters can mine more coins, than they should. Maybe it is a way to compensate for 8 blocks, where they burned 25 BTC worth of mining power, or more, to make them?

Quote
It's so confusing when latest Bitcoin Knots binary/version released 3 weeks ago.
I don't know, why people expect any honest launch in the altcoin world. Today, even testnets have a "de-facto premine", by being included into Bitcoin Core, when the chain is already alive, and have thousands of blocks. BTC in 2009 was released in a completely different conditions, where there were no altcoins, and it was possible to launch it honestly. For almost the whole 2009, everything was mineable on a CPU, the world back then was completely different. Today, I wouldn't expect any honestly launched altcoin, when many creators care mainly about making something, and just extracting BTCs or dollars out of their creation.

Also, if the whole coin is based on trusting only the block explorer, and people are okay with that, then what would you expect? That website can tell you tomorrow, that you have 22 million coins, because why not. They hard-forked, so they can do anything, and run any rules they want. Who knows if they still have halvings or not? If you don't have the same client, as they are using, then you won't be able to verify it.
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Today at 11:15:00 AM
 #95


I give you one more post to pay attention to,



    

And he is on twitter asking for donations....




Also found this site that was setup the day after the new algo was announced.

b i t c o i n b l a k e 2 b m i n i n g . c o m

Anyone want to take bets as to them ever shipping miners to people?

-Dave 

 
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