The question of provable fairness standards

[swogerino]

Well to be honest, most gambling site could uses this provably fairness to attract more of the gambler to their site with the intention of having being most trusted casinos, if I must say all casinos preached to be that Fair but dip down I don't just think they are worth it as I do not know how they are calculating their fairness.
And this is what the gambler would want to listen over time because everyone searches for where to win a sustainable amount while gambling.

Most gamblers do not care about provably fair anymore, when it first was a thing some years ago it became somewhat massive, still for a short amount of time. The gambler of nowadays wanna know for real, the RTP if it is the same as the one advertised by the casino as many slot providers offers different range of RTP-s and only the casino would know, they would advertise like 96% RTP when in fact they would be giving like 89% RTP and this needs a way to be verified, we have no way still of how to verify the RTP of a certain slot machine at a certain casino for the moment, this is what most gamblers want to know nowadays including me. The fun fact is that gamblers despite not knowing true RTP they still play with the hope of getting the max win so most likely for most of them the provably fair thing is, well a thing of the past.

[DanWalker]

The recent report by probablyfair.org brings to question the standards of provable fairness across the industry.
Why would a casino risk such a reputational hit? The money is probably the answer.
Maybe us as gamblers should be more informed and demand better and uniform standards across the industry.

What are your thoughts on this?

Thank you for bringing up this crucial topic, alani!

This report by probablyfair.org is really eye opening for everyone. The way popular casino like Betfury are hiding skewed odds or extra house edge by using Provably Fair tag is really big slap in the face for our forum. Betfury has been promoting itself as honest for long time on our forum but has been running a lot of scams on inside.

Game result & hash were not manipulated later, they are only proving that. But it cannot be verified with SHA 256 that math & RTP behind generating those result was fair or not! So, they tricked by advertising 99% RTP on outside and running 97% or less real time payout on inside.

[Yeesha]

A game can be provable fair doesn't mean it is profitable. The odd still tells a different story. The game can be proved not to be manipulated and still be very unfavorable to gamblers. With all this it's best you base and fix your mind on a game that has probability. There will always be an house edge to favour the casino.

Yes, of course. Even if the casino is not manipulating the customers or the outcome of the game at the end of the game, that still doesn't guarantee profits, because luckily the casino might win legitimately. Just because a casino seem decent doesn't clarify its reputation, because their is a possibility of gaining their own profits through other ways. So, whether the game is favourable or unfavorable to the players, it might one way be favourable to them due to the odds. Every player should be aware of this principle, I don't know whether this applies to every casino but in several casino the odds are always designed to give the casino a long term advantage, so the players might be at high risk of losing unless the player is lucky enough.

[gracreavix]

The word fair is even occurred. Cause it seems like as if there's like an equal chance of you actually being profitable in gambling. Something like 50:50. But that is not always the case. Even transparency is just another word for I only show you what I want you to see and not necessarily what you yourself want to verify about the casino. All they showed you that the game are not manipulated, but are those the only thing to actually prove that. They're some areas that it will still favour the casino.

[henmark]

The recent report by probablyfair.org brings to question the standards of provable fairness across the industry.
Why would a casino risk such a reputational hit? The money is probably the answer.
Maybe us as gamblers should be more informed and demand better and uniform standards across the industry.

What are your thoughts on this?

Thank you for bringing up this crucial topic, alani!

This report by probablyfair.org is really eye opening for everyone. The way popular casino like Betfury are hiding skewed odds or extra house edge by using Provably Fair tag is really big slap in the face for our forum. Betfury has been promoting itself as honest for long time on our forum but has been running a lot of scams on inside.

Game result & hash were not manipulated later, they are only proving that. But it cannot be verified with SHA 256 that math & RTP behind generating those result was fair or not! So, they tricked by advertising 99% RTP on outside and running 97% or less real time payout on inside.

99% RTP? That even sounds like a scam. No casino or game provider would ever provide that much as RTP for their games or machines.

And by the way, the RTP is mostly set by the game providers, because mostly, the games are running on the provider's servers and the casino is just allowing us to play, the wins and losses are all going to the provider, and then the casino just gets a cut from the profits the provider is getting through them.

How it basically works is that the slot or game providers give casinos a license for their machines, the casinos list their games in their platforms, players play the games, and in those games, RTP, winning limits, and all those things are basically set by the providers and they have these things adjusted based on how much revenue the machine can generate in a month, which means that even if some gamblers hit a 20,000x in a single month, the machine will still not be at a loss because it must have already made more profit than it is giving away.

RTPs are never a guarantee that you will actually get that much of your lost amount back, it's just a possibility, and there is also no fixed timeframe for that to happen.

[Emeraldo]

The word fair is even occurred. Cause it seems like as if there's like an equal chance of you actually being profitable in gambling. Something like 50:50. But that is not always the case. Even transparency is just another word for I only show you what I want you to see and not necessarily what you yourself want to verify about the casino. All they showed you that the game are not manipulated, but are those the only thing to actually prove that. They're some areas that it will still favour the casino.

There are some games that have full transparency when you play them but that does not mean you that you are not going to lose money when you play these games for a long period. Gambling always favour the casino that is offering the service and we should not think that we are going to be profitable always since a game is probably fair.

 I have played slot games that have 98% RTP and after playing for more than 12 hours consecutively, I still end up losing money to the casino. The longer you play, the high chances you are going to lose money definitely which we can not change the fact.

[Ayers]

Most gamblers do not care about provably fair anymore, when it first was a thing some years ago it became somewhat massive, still for a short amount of time. The gambler of nowadays wanna know for real, the RTP if it is the same as the one advertised by the casino as many slot providers offers different range of RTP-s and only the casino would know, they would advertise like 96% RTP when in fact they would be giving like 89% RTP and this needs a way to be verified, we have no way still of how to verify the RTP of a certain slot machine at a certain casino for the moment, this is what most gamblers want to know nowadays including me. The fun fact is that gamblers despite not knowing true RTP they still play with the hope of getting the max win so most likely for most of them the provably fair thing is, well a thing of the past.

I couldn't agree more with what you said. As you argue RTP is important to know, but I'd say Provable Fair is still the best and it's not out of date yet. Rather, its importance in the world of online gambling is now more than ever.

You said yourself that casinos can show 96% in ads and set 89% inside. We all know that in traditional casino we have no way to verify RTP. But Provably Fair game use cryptographic hash. This allows us to check whether outcome of each spin or round was predetermined, or if the casino rigged it midway. RTP works as an average of billions of spin. If you play 1000 spin we will never immediately get same outcome as declared RTP. So it is impossible to understand whether any single session is fair or not with RTP alone. So both have different function and importance.

[alani123]

I guess the bigger responsibility is on regulators, on the agencies that issued the licenses. Do they even function? Do they conduct regular audit? Do they strictly implement policies that protect consumers? Do they prosecute or penalize cheating casinos? I guess they don't.

Funny as it may sound, I have never seen a report before from casino regulators addressing an issue that they must have discovered about a casino and give a heads up so that players can stop using that casino.

It left me with the question of whether the regulators do not bother to regularly audit a casino that they have licenced to check if those casinos are still abiding to the right policies and are not cheating players. If actually there's a regular regulatory audit on these licensed casino, they regulators can be the ones to detect it and warn players against using the casino, but I don't think they do it.

If there was a case of regulators prosecuting a casino for manipulating a game results, I have not seen one, maybe someone can show me a case like that if they have seen one.

Supposedly anjuan licenses check randomness and probability. But the fact thst many casinos who actually operate under this licence still chest shows that it means jack shit in reality. They check nothing and once any entity has laid for a license they get a blank slate to do whatever they want.

Not to say that government licenses even from big countries like US states, Canadian territories or even EU countries would be much better. How can they verify the randomness and probability? They're incompetent first of all and regulators are not to be trusted with anything technical. Casinos could be cheating anyone for real.

[CryptoBuds]

Why would a casino risk such a reputational hit?

imo, it is not just because of greed or money. Rather main reason is lack of third-party auditing obligation in  industry. Casino owners know very well that 99% of player will never decode bet and verify seed or hash. And those one or two technical players who will verify, they will only get the evidence of result change, but will not be able to catch hidden Odds inside algorithm. As a result, taking this risk is very easy and profitable business for casino!

[boyptc]

That's because not all users are checking if they're into a casino that really stands with the provably fair that they're saying.

If you look at how many gamblers really care about it, I don't think that the majority would say about they care about if the game they play is provably fair.

And that's because they only gamble with a small amount and just passing by to have fun.

But for those who are serious with their gambling activities and very sensitive, they can't pass on these kinds of gamblers like the one who made that report.

It's even not that easy to check that independently.
In order to understand what you're doing you need some computer science knowledge that isn't even that basic.

Most students in CompSci would take cryptographic algorithms in their second or third year out of a four year program. So really for someone to be self taught in how to check cryptographic chains it might take some extra time or at least some sort of talent or past experience with similar hobbies.

There are utilities to help you check online but they aren't really independent and might be inclined to lie to help a casino.

You have a point that it's not for beginners to check if it's provably fair or not. There's a technical knowledge for one to do it.

But I think due to curiosity and discussions like this, if someone is interested into it. They'll start to learn how but most likely, we just gamble and accept if we lose.

Being self taught won't be that easy and only those who continue to gamble with the same game for having provably fair will benefit from it. And that's why not everyone checks it and just passes on it and are not taking time to dig it.

[Darker45]

~snip~

~snip~

Supposedly anjuan licenses check randomness and probability. But the fact thst many casinos who actually operate under this licence still chest shows that it means jack shit in reality. They check nothing and once any entity has laid for a license they get a blank slate to do whatever they want.

Not to say that government licenses even from big countries like US states, Canadian territories or even EU countries would be much better. How can they verify the randomness and probability? They're incompetent first of all and regulators are not to be trusted with anything technical. Casinos could be cheating anyone for real.

Regulators are overseeing entire industries. They should include experts in their staff. They have the money. Otherwise, they're useless. They can't perform their mandate. They can't protect consumers. They can't police businesses under them. They're of no use, then.

Here on the forum alone, there were casinos that exit scammed, locked funds, refused to pay winnings, and so on and so forth. They're probably licensed. I doubt if any one of them is fined, jailed, prosecuted, or at least called to explain their alleged crimes or violations.

[TedMosby]

That's also become my concern with everything that claims provable fairness. You may be able to check it and see that it matches the result you get, but we don't know how they decided to pick a certain value for the result and verification, like the server seed, for example. The problem is not only whether it's locked before the play or not, but there's also a possibility that the casino finds and chooses a server seed that makes your client seed lose even before it's finally locked. So, in this way, it's still verified as provably fair.

According to the casino operator in the AMA here https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5482508, game fairness is also part of the licensing requirements. He said, “If it's a licensed casino, it has to have provably fair games, the regulator will not permit it otherwise.” However, there's still a possibility that the code could be changed after the casino gets its license, just like how some apps on the App Store and Google Play Store later turn into scams.

[WhoYouCantKill]

We cannot prove it in any way. My friend once played a game in which a pattern was being formed, that is, whether the win will come in the next number or not. In this game, there was a box where the sign of each win and the number of losses were being written. In this box, there were about 6 to 7 lines, out of which 4 lines were completed and I had understood this method. I told my friend that by betting as much money as possible, this is the way by which he can win these rounds. He listened to me but was afraid to bet more money and it happened as I had thought and later that friend was quite disappointed. After that, I did not find any way by which I could prove myself. The casino sets all this, some people benefit from it and some lose because their aim is this, otherwise they set every game, they have already set it in a complete order.

Well one thing about patterns is that they can sometimes look very convincing, but does that mean they offer an accurate prediction of next outcomes? Definitely not. It’s possible for random games to produce some kind of streak that may even appear to be structured, and if one isn’t careful, they may end up believing that they have just somehow discovered a pattern that’ll guarantee them future wins, I’ve been there before and I can understand how that feels, so I’m not just talking theoretically, but the truth is that it’s never proven that the outcome can actually be predicted consistently. And this is the very reason why it can be really dangerous and misleading to only rely on one particular success prediction.

[SuperBitMan]

We cannot prove it in any way. My friend once played a game in which a pattern was being formed, that is, whether the win will come in the next number or not. In this game, there was a box where the sign of each win and the number of losses were being written. In this box, there were about 6 to 7 lines, out of which 4 lines were completed and I had understood this method. I told my friend that by betting as much money as possible, this is the way by which he can win these rounds. He listened to me but was afraid to bet more money and it happened as I had thought and later that friend was quite disappointed. After that, I did not find any way by which I could prove myself. The casino sets all this, some people benefit from it and some lose because their aim is this, otherwise they set every game, they have already set it in a complete order.

Well one thing about patterns is that they can sometimes look very convincing, but does that mean they offer an accurate prediction of next outcomes? Definitely not. It’s possible for random games to produce some kind of streak that may even appear to be structured, and if one isn’t careful, they may end up believing that they have just somehow discovered a pattern that’ll guarantee them future wins, I’ve been there before and I can understand how that feels, so I’m not just talking theoretically, but the truth is that it’s never proven that the outcome can actually be predicted consistently. And this is the very reason why it can be really dangerous and misleading to only rely on one particular success prediction.

True, no pattern or strategy can give you 100% assurance in gambling, you may win today with a particular pattern that does not mean you are going to continue winning with that particular pattern or strategy, I have tried a particular pattern and I won, but I was not winning consistently in gambling, all pattern can work for you if you are lucky, no pattern is always an assurance because gambling is usually my luck.

Some people do not understand that gambling sometimes has nothing to do with how good you are in predicting or how good you are in following the sport’s, I’m not saying that being good in prediction and following the sports those not count, it those but luck has a role to play.

[purple_sparkles]

There is always an element of uncertainty in betting, and the game can go in a completely different direction from what you expected. Even if you closely follow certain players or teams, unexpected situations can always happen. That’s why it’s important to keep this in mind and consider the possibility that your bet might not win. You should never risk an amount of money that you can’t afford to lose.

[Smartprofit]

Cryptographic integrity (PF) is certainly good and useful, but in my opinion, it's more important for a player to know what percentage of the winnings (RTP) the casino keeps for itself. 🙋

Of course, I don't see online casinos as a source of constant income. I'm not that naive.🧏

However, it's important for me to know what percentage of the winnings the casino keeps for itself. If it's 20 percent, then in my opinion, it feels too much like robbery... That's too much! I'll probably abandon the idea of ​​playing at such a casino.

It's also important to keep in mind that in many complex games, cryptographic integrity only provides the illusion of control over the situation, since calculating everything correctly is a very complex task. Most users don't bother with this and are content with the illusion of control. However, if they sleep soundly and don't worry about it, then everything is fine!💁

[qurbanshah02]

We cannot prove it in any way. My friend once played a game in which a pattern was being formed, that is, whether the win will come in the next number or not. In this game, there was a box where the sign of each win and the number of losses were being written. In this box, there were about 6 to 7 lines, out of which 4 lines were completed and I had understood this method. I told my friend that by betting as much money as possible, this is the way by which he can win these rounds. He listened to me but was afraid to bet more money and it happened as I had thought and later that friend was quite disappointed. After that, I did not find any way by which I could prove myself. The casino sets all this, some people benefit from it and some lose because their aim is this, otherwise they set every game, they have already set it in a complete order.

Well one thing about patterns is that they can sometimes look very convincing, but does that mean they offer an accurate prediction of next outcomes? Definitely not. It’s possible for random games to produce some kind of streak that may even appear to be structured, and if one isn’t careful, they may end up believing that they have just somehow discovered a pattern that’ll guarantee them future wins, I’ve been there before and I can understand how that feels, so I’m not just talking theoretically, but the truth is that it’s never proven that the outcome can actually be predicted consistently. And this is the very reason why it can be really dangerous and misleading to only rely on one particular success prediction.

I also believe that this is not a pattern we understand, it was based on my luck and my good time, so I used to tell my friend to follow this pattern and I have further said that I have not heard this from anyone later. I do not think it is predetermined, if it is not predetermined, then the casino people will only give you wins where you spend less money? Because their goal is also to earn money, not to give it to people, they will only give benefits to people in the form of prizes and levels. That is why the casino people run it as a particular pattern, otherwise no one who invests more money can win. If the casino people are live, then it will be based on luck, if it is predetermined, then we will be able to adopt our luck and at the same time, we will avoid their trick by investing more money.

[WhoYouCantKill]

True, no pattern or strategy can give you 100% assurance in gambling, you may win today with a particular pattern that does not mean you are going to continue winning with that particular pattern or strategy, I have tried a particular pattern and I won, but I was not winning consistently in gambling, all pattern can work for you if you are lucky, no pattern is always an assurance because gambling is usually my luck.

Some people do not understand that gambling sometimes has nothing to do with how good you are in predicting or how good you are in following the sport’s, I’m not saying that being good in prediction and following the sports those not count, it those but luck has a role to play.

People who fail to understand this simple rule of gambling would easily get into trouble because they’ll most likely depend solely on their skill and strategy alone, thinking they’ve been able to figure out some kind of a loophole in gambling, while in reality, there’s really no loophole, and any strategy that leads to a streak was merely just a stroke of luck and never really because it was a loophole.

I kinda figured this out the hard way because I used to be one of those who thought I could actually cheat the game, but I only succeeded in building my expectations to a point that made me feel invincible but I soon realized that it was never me but luck. Not an experience I like remember lol.

[sompitonov]

People who fail to understand this simple rule of gambling would easily get into trouble because they’ll most likely depend solely on their skill and strategy alone, thinking they’ve been able to figure out some kind of a loophole in gambling, while in reality, there’s really no loophole, and any strategy that leads to a streak was merely just a stroke of luck and never really because it was a loophole.

I kinda figured this out the hard way because I used to be one of those who thought I could actually cheat the game, but I only succeeded in building my expectations to a point that made me feel invincible but I soon realized that it was never me but luck. Not an experience I like remember lol.

Most players have experienced this, having just had a bit of luck and thinking it would last forever. But over time, the game reveals our true place in the world of betting and casinos. More accurately, it's virtually impossible to beat the casino, especially if you play for a long time. There will certainly be lucky players, or even super-professionals who understand all the intricacies of the game and have colossal experience, but even they aren't completely confident they'll win. So why do we believe in our inevitable luck and not consider the possibility of losing our deposit?