If you got in this situationn! What will you?

[Stalker22]

No laws were broken except there is someone with a claim to the funds that can provide proof of that. Even in that situation, it still doesnt break any criminal law I know of

Are you sure about that?  The legal system cares about intent and ownership.  Taking someone elses funds is criminal theft, as you are knowingly depriving the rightful owner of their property.  It also violates cybercrime laws for unauthorized access, making it a prosecutable felony regardless of how the key was obtained.

If you have the keys you can spend the coins (no exception).
~

Technically you can, but legally you cannot.

[lionheart78]

1. Did that someone break any Law upon discovery of this ^{(Based on country probable geolocation Laws exist for digital)}?
2. Is he allowed to spend it or transfer to another wallet and sold it
3. Technically on bitcoins perspective anyone control the keys or able to sign a message = own the bitcoin ^{(Is this somehow exempted?)}
4. Does he own now the bitcoin assuming the owner is probably dead and he can sign a message?
5. Is he fortunate or like win a Jackpot or just place himself more in danger upon discovering this?

Technically this is a huge debate Im surely wanted to know some answers. Whats your thought on this?

In Bitcoin, whoever holds the key owns the coins.  So the person who happens to discover the private key to a dormant address holding huge amount of BTC have the right to move it since the Bitcoin system acknowledges the person to be the owner of such an address.  But in legality, it would be complicated.  In my coutnry, it is said that any movable that is found should be returned to the owner, and if the owner is unknown it should be surrendered to the authority and the authority will publish it for two consecutive weeks and if there is no one claiming the lost object after six months from publication, the finder can own the item.  But here is where it get complicated, there is no law that is linked to Bitcoin, yes he maybe discoverd the USB or paper, that is movable but the USB containing the Bitcoin private key is not the Bitcoin itself. 

So it is really complicated since there is no law in my country that actually covers the scenario that will exempt the person who found the private key from being labeled as a thief if he spends the funds.  So I think it is a matter of conscience this time.

[coinlary]

"guess" is a wrong word to use in such statement, but let's  assume play dumb that  it really happened,:
1. No law is broken, but depending on how he may try to  spend it , he could run into some KYC issue when they trace whatever amiunt he's spending to a huge source.

2. There's no restriction to spending Bitcoin

3. He doesn't  need sign any message

4. Since we're playing dumb, He owns the Bitcoin so far he owns the key . The rightful owner can also spend it on it side unless it's  a lost wallet (which is technically supposed to be lost forever).  

[Youngrebel]

In Bitcoin, whoever holds the key owns the coins.  So the person who happens to discover the private key to a dormant address holding huge amount of BTC have the right to move it since the Bitcoin system acknowledges the person to be the owner of such an address.  But in legality, it would be complicated.  In my coutnry, it is said that any movable that is found should be returned to the owner, and if the owner is unknown it should be surrendered to the authority and the authority will publish it for two consecutive weeks and if there is no one claiming the lost object after six months from publication, the finder can own the item.  But here is where it get complicated, there is no law that is linked to Bitcoin, yes he maybe discoverd the USB or paper, that is movable but the USB containing the Bitcoin private key is not the Bitcoin itself. 

So it is really complicated since there is no law in my country that actually covers the scenario that will exempt the person who found the private key from being labeled as a thief if he spends the funds.  So I think it is a matter of conscience this time.

For me, conscience matters, but I would not actually rely on conscience alone when a huge amount of money is involved and the safer approach would be to report the discovery and seek proper legal guidance, most especially because laws around assets most at times actually varries and may not clearly address situation like this.

[Joy- maker]

Lets just say a dormant wallet for a long time and someone luckily guess the keys.

First of all, what on earth would make someone start guessing private keys randomly in the first place? The Idea itself makes no practical sense and the odds are astronomically close to zero.   Now let's assume you successfully guessed someone's private keys if you move the funds from the person's wallet to your own wallet without the owner's consent that is stealing, even if the wallet has been dormant for years. The funds do not belong to you, come on that's some years of sacrifice and effort.

[ColdLava40]

It's just a hypothetical statement, because I don't think guessing the keys will be even possible.

I'm sure a lot of us had though of this before, guess a random seedphrase, get access to the wallet and be the lucky one. It is just not looking realistic.

But answering your question, I'm sure before anyone would recognize that someone gained access to their keys if they were lucky like you said, the coins would have been moved and spent. No one will be that slow not to spend the coins he had luckily unlocked.

[SatoPrincess]

Like we say in the bitcoin community, “Not your keys, Not your coins”.  If someone somehow guesses the private key of the wallet and doesn’t have to sign a message, there is nothing that can stop them from moving the bitcoins. What I would be worried about is the origin of the bitcoins, and if the wallet is on a watchlist. Besides it’s impossible to move that much bitcoins without gaining attention, let alone trade it.

[retreat]

It's unlikely that a private key could be guessed that easily. But let's say that scenario happens, I think it depends on how he handles the Bitcoin inside it. If he tries to spend it, then that's clearly against the law because he's spending something that wasn't his from the start.

But it depends on the owner of that Bitcoin, whether they report it to the authorities or not. If they report it, then the authorities can trace the movement of the funds, and that guy can be tracked and caught for breaking into the wallet. But if not, then that guy would likely face less attention from the authorities, though that doesn't make what he did legal and give him legitimate ownership of the Bitcoin.

[Hamza2424]

However if it was of a dormant address then probably it's a lost one because the chances of an individual Hodling such huge amounts is very slim. Suck kind of amount draws a lot of attention. They could tag it stolen funds and we know how the government handles them obviously.

Hm yep, the amount is really big. The amount of BTC that we can buy with $1B would be larger than the whole BTC portfolio of El Salvador. So it will probably attract unnecessary attention, but unlike their address, this one won't be tagged, so no one can surely tell who has moved the funds. We all would say the rightful owner has moved the coins to a better place for security purposes.

If the bitcoin belongs to someone and the person said his coin got lost. People will not say he guessed it, they will say he hacked into the wallet and compromised it.

So there would be a difference?

Like bro, if someone is able to guess the keys like the Coldcard hackers were, they were not called guessers, they were called hackers because how can they guess the keys? They knew the entropy though, that was the main issue, but no one can guess the keys.

[Cryptomultiplier]

Like we say in the bitcoin community, “Not your keys, Not your coins”.  If someone somehow guesses the private key of the wallet and doesn’t have to sign a message, there is nothing that can stop them from moving the bitcoins. What I would be worried about is the origin of the bitcoins, and if the wallet is on a watchlist. Besides it’s impossible to move that much bitcoins without gaining attention, let alone trade it.

The law these days notices almost every transactions irrespective of whether it is crypto currency or fiat and that's why AML policies exist and kYC requirements exist too because at a point a very large transaction either from the owner or from someone else would be flagged and frozen first and only released upon proper verification and confirmation of ownership. Technology has gotten more sophisticated mostly with AI assistance always on deck.

That means it might be possible to guess a weak or poorly created key having being cracked but moving the funds and even spending it, is the real twist that could come with real consequences.

[cryptoaddictchie]

More like wishful thinking.

- Jay -

Ofcourse thats a wishful thinking! If ever Ive got into this situation, Id probably wont mentioned it to anyone anyway.

Technically, if you hold the private key, then you are the owner of those addresses, so the first thing I would do is a sweep.

I am a kind-hearted person and will be returning them if it is in hundred but a billion dollar treasure is no joke and everyone would do the same thing in my opinion.

I doubt when it happened to you you would say it again about returning it as probably your mind will be blown what to do in that situation.

So it is really complicated since there is no law in my country that actually covers the scenario that will exempt the person who found the private key from being labeled as a thief if he spends the funds.  So I think it is a matter of conscience this time.

You mean our country bro? Haha! Ive never checked yet regarding our byLaws ( which probably we dont have yet regarding crypto) but in the event it happened I think its better to be quiet and careful cause PH crocs are probably hunting you.

Now let's assume you successfully guessed someone's private keys if you move the funds from the person's wallet to your own wallet without the owner's consent that is stealing, even if the wallet has been dormant for years. The funds do not belong to you, come on that's some years of sacrifice and effort.

Yeah I agreed and this scenario is obviously hypothetical but the topic could have variety of opinion based and depends on each country. But if we applied the concept of bitcoin as per whitepaper of Satoshi "Anyone controls the wallet" owns it. However were not living in a stone age where Law and regulations doesnt applied to everyone.

[X-ray]

It wouldn't be too different to those private key theft cases.

The original owner will sue if they can prove ownership such as the transaction record, bank transfers, etc relating to the historical blockchain record and exchange transaction record from where the original owner acquired the bitcoin.

If they can't prove it, then the lucky guy might get away with the money.

I think this is the most plausible outcome.

You can say, whoever owned private key owned the Bitcoin, but the courts might have different opinion about it.

[Marvelockg]

I saw this topic on Reddit/Bitcoin, and got curious if this ever happened on anyone. What actually will they do? Or does this kind of scenario implicate some lawful violations. Considering that someone didnt use any sort of unlawful stuff like knocking on someone door and forced to give a private key and steal it.

Lets just say a dormant wallet for a long time and someone luckily guess the keys.

\
In reality, the odd that you will do some sort of permutation and come up with a situation as this is as small as a non existing possibility but if we are just looking at an hypothetical situation, what you decide to do with the recovered fund will depend on your kind of personality and there are still other things you have to consider and one of which is that the wallet might belong to someone that has worked really hard for it. put yourself in his shoes and you will know that it is not worth it destroying someone's fortune all on the premise that you don't know who the person his. for conscience sake, even if even if i have the means of going away with it, i will rather not do it.

[TheButterZone]

This is almost a redux of https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=155112.0

[cryptoaddictchie]

You can say, whoever owned private key owned the Bitcoin, but the courts might have different opinion about it.

Yeah thats what Im also thinking for bitcoin concept its really nothing to worry only the government on which those guys who can access a wallet will definitely have problem. Obviously they want a piece of it.

In reality, the odd that you will do some sort of permutation and come up with a situation as this is as small as a non existing possibility but if we are just looking at an hypothetical situation, what you decide to do with the recovered fund will depend on your kind of personality and there are still other things you have to consider and one of which is that the wallet might belong to someone that has worked really hard for it. put yourself in his shoes and you will know that it is not worth it destroying someone's fortune all on the premise that you don't know who the person his. for conscience sake, even if even if i have the means of going away with it, i will rather not do it.

Yeah I know what you meant and this is only a hypothetical scenario. But honestly if the chance of getting it at 0.001% thats still a chance it might be sound impossible but we knew theres still a way.

Yeah, I assumed many have tried this but failed cause lets admit its not that easy to lock in a potential keys with solid bitcoin asset.

[YellowSwap]

That's a whole lots of money, I would be scared at first and later I will start spending from the wallet, probably move small amount of money as a warning to the person.

The thing is if I move the whole amount I would not be able to spend, all target will be on me so I will move 60k or a bit more to send as a signal to the owner that the wallet is compromised.

Since we can't tell who owns a crypto wallet or message them privately, sometimes the only signal we can give is move some part of the money as a warning, so that they will reroute the rest.

[Findingnemo]

Technically, if you hold the private key, then you are the owner of those addresses, so the first thing I would do is a sweep.

I am a kind-hearted person and will be returning them if it is in hundred but a billion dollar treasure is no joke and everyone would do the same thing in my opinion.

I doubt when it happened to you you would say it again about returning it as probably your mind will be blown what to do in that situation.

Read that again then you would understand what I just said, If it is billion dollars then I would be sweeping the bitcoin to another freshly created address and keep it for myself.

Finders keepers.

[m2017]

I saw this topic on Reddit/Bitcoin, and got curious if this ever happened on anyone. What actually will they do? Or does this kind of scenario implicate some lawful violations. Considering that someone didnt use any sort of unlawful stuff like knocking on someone door and forced to give a private key and steal it.

Lets just say a dormant wallet for a long time and someone luckily guess the keys.

Transferring these assets means taking possession of it. From a legal (and moral) standpoint, this constitutes theft, as you are appropriating someone else's property (even if the asset itself isn't legally regulated in that country).

It is one thing to find a wallet full of cash on the street when the owner is nowhere to be found. It is quite another to reach into someone else's pocket and take their wallet. Transferring assets from another person's wallet to your own is exactly the same kind of theft.

Did you accidentally gain access to someone else's wallet? Why the hell are you touching property that doesn't belong to you? Hands off! Forget that you even managed to access it. The wallet's owner knows what to do with those assets. At most, you could send a message via the network to warn them that unauthorized parties have access to their wallet. So that he could move these assets to another wallet.

Different questions on my mind pops up regading this scenario like these:

1. Did that someone break any Law upon discovery of this ^{(Based on country probable geolocation Laws exist for digital)}?

That is, if such laws exist in the specific country. Detection is one thing, but the transfer is something else entirely - and I believe that is a punishable offense (depending on the legislation).

2. Is he allowed to spend it or transfer to another wallet and sold it

He has not a single moral right.

3. Technically on bitcoins perspective anyone control the keys or able to sign a message = own the bitcoin ^{(Is this somehow exempted?)}

A rule is something that everyone adheres to. From a moral standpoint, it should be added that the owner is the person who acquired these bitcoins (whether by purchase, received as a gift, etc.).

4. Does he own now the bitcoin assuming the owner is probably dead and he can sign a message?

How did you intend to find out whether the owner was dead or alive? If the owner didn't reply to a message from someone who had gained access to their wallet, that didn't necessarily mean anything.

5. Is he fortunate or like win a Jackpot or just place himself more in danger upon discovering this?

Gained access to someone else's wallet? Don't touch it - just walk on by. You don't own what belongs to someone else.

Technically this is a huge debate Im surely wanted to know some answers. Whats your thought on this?

Yes, this is a very serious topic that concerns morality, to a large extent. But, unfortunately, people’s morality varies.

[Popkon6]

What you are guessing is not possible at all, it is impossible to catch, in the current situation, although you can guess and be correct, you can make it your own. Because in this situation, the person who controls the Bitcoin in the wallet owns the Bitcoin to the extent that he can control it. There are many inactive wallets whose owners have died, if someone can collect the Bitcoin of those wallets, then they will definitely be able to recover it, but my question is how can this be possible, which is very difficult for me?

Different questions on my mind pops up regading this scenario like these:

1. Did that someone break any Law upon discovery of this ^{(Based on country probable geolocation Laws exist for digital)}?
2. Is he allowed to spend it or transfer to another wallet and sold it
3. Technically on bitcoins perspective anyone control the keys or able to sign a message = own the bitcoin ^{(Is this somehow exempted?)}
4. Does he own now the bitcoin assuming the owner is probably dead and he can sign a message?
5. Is he fortunate or like win a Jackpot or just place himself more in danger upon discovering this?

Technically this is a huge debate Im surely wanted to know some answers. Whats your thought on this?

It is impossible to guess the seed phrase of the wallet, because only a few words out of many words are the seed phrase, so it is difficult to easily match it. If this were the case, then each person would continue to try and easily take the money in other people's wallets, we have been saving and holding Bitcoin wallets for a long time, but our wallet is very simple, but other people could not hack it by trying.

[BALIK]

Technically, if you hold the private key, then you are the owner of those addresses, so the first thing I would do is a sweep.

I am a kind-hearted person and will be returning them if it is in hundred but a billion dollar treasure is no joke and everyone would do the same thing in my opinion.

I doubt when it happened to you you would say it again about returning it as probably your mind will be blown what to do in that situation.

Read that again then you would understand what I just said, If it is billion dollars then I would be sweeping the bitcoin to another freshly created address and keep it for myself.

Finders keepers.

Even if it was $100m, $10m or even just $1M, I do not think many of us would be decent enough to actually think about returning it, let alone when we are talking about $1B.

Yeah, most people would probably do the same thing. They'd move all the Bitcoin to one or more new wallets and try to hide where it came from using mixer, privacy tool or by splitting it across multiple transaction.

Even knowing it is illegal and morally wrong, I still think most people would have a hard time resisting when there's that kind of money right in front of them.