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Author Topic: Collectivists at it again.  (Read 1391 times)
JA37
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December 31, 2011, 01:34:02 PM
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God damn it, they're at it again, those damn collectivists create the best school in the world.

http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2011/12/what-americans-keep-ignoring-about-finlands-school-success/250564/

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December 31, 2011, 01:38:50 PM
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Since the 1980s, the main driver of Finnish education policy has been the idea that every child should have exactly the same opportunity to learn, regardless of family background, income, or geographic location. Education has been seen first and foremost not as a way to produce star performers, but as an instrument to even out social inequality.

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Like Finland, Norway is small and not especially diverse overall, but unlike Finland it has taken an approach to education that is more American than Finnish. The result? Mediocre performance in the PISA survey.

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December 31, 2011, 01:47:40 PM
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Finland also has a high suicide rate
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December 31, 2011, 01:57:45 PM
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Finland also has a high suicide rate

Not even in the top 10 if you look at wikipedia.
Do you think that has anything to do with the school system?

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January 01, 2012, 12:14:12 AM
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Groups all over the world force bad systems into place. One of them is the best. Not surprising.

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January 01, 2012, 12:42:33 AM
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Groups all over the world force bad systems into place. One of them is the best. Not surprising.

Let's hear a better system then? One that has all the benefits of the Finnish system, and then some.

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January 01, 2012, 01:01:38 AM
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Groups all over the world force bad systems into place. One of them is the best. Not surprising.

Let's hear a better system then? One that has all the benefits of the Finnish system, and then some.

I've heard really good things about Montessori schools, but I'm not sure what benefits you're looking for beyond "the children learn what they need to." What more should a school be obligated to provide?

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January 01, 2012, 01:13:00 AM
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This is a useless study.  It compares government school systems to each other, based on arbitrary metrics comparing scores between groups of 15 year olds (an arbitrary age) in testing for arbitrarily chosen subjects.  It would be trivial for any number of different private school systems in the US to crush Finland's numbers.  Average scores for US students in government sponsored schools in the US suck, in part, because everyone knows that they suck so many parents with means don't send their children to government schools, so those government schools suck more.  Compare Finland's scores to say, Covington Latin in Covington, Kentucky or St Francis High School in Downtown Louisville, Kentucky or Highlands Latin School in the Highlands district of Louisville, Kentucky and these scores would be embarressing.  And those three are just a few that I could think of off the top of my head.  For that matter, just comparing Finland's average scoring to the average American homeschooled high school aged student would make a lot of Finnish schoolteachers question the effectiveness of their careers considering what the average, untrained parent educator can do.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

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January 01, 2012, 01:16:43 AM
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Groups all over the world force bad systems into place. One of them is the best. Not surprising.

Let's hear a better system then? One that has all the benefits of the Finnish system, and then some.

I've heard really good things about Montessori schools, but I'm not sure what benefits you're looking for beyond "the children learn what they need to." What more should a school be obligated to provide?


Montessori style education is just unschooling in a well equipt day-care style environment while parents work.  It does tend to work out well, since most children are self-motivated if the love of learning isn't crushed by formal schooling first.  However, I have yet to see a single Montessori school extend beyond 6th grade.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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January 01, 2012, 01:19:10 AM
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Groups all over the world force bad systems into place. One of them is the best. Not surprising.

Let's hear a better system then? One that has all the benefits of the Finnish system, and then some.

I've heard really good things about Montessori schools, but I'm not sure what benefits you're looking for beyond "the children learn what they need to." What more should a school be obligated to provide?


I've had mixed experience with Montessori methodology. And that's what it is, a methodology, not a school system. You could use Montessori methods in the school system, and I think the Finns do that to some extent. If you read the article you'll see that they focus on educating while playing, something Montessori recognized the importance of very early.
My experience with Montessori is mixed like I said. They do teach some things very well, but they lack others, so moving from Montessori to higher education isn't always trouble free since there's often certain skills missing.

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January 01, 2012, 08:11:51 AM
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Groups all over the world force bad systems into place. One of them is the best. Not surprising.

Let's hear a better system then? One that has all the benefits of the Finnish system, and then some.

I've heard really good things about Montessori schools, but I'm not sure what benefits you're looking for beyond "the children learn what they need to." What more should a school be obligated to provide?


Montessori style education is just unschooling in a well equipt day-care style environment while parents work.  It does tend to work out well, since most children are self-motivated if the love of learning isn't crushed by formal schooling first.  However, I have yet to see a single Montessori school extend beyond 6th grade.

That was what I had gathered. If it works as it should, I wouldn't think any formalized schooling would be necessary beyond 6th grade with that system, except perhaps spending a year or so prepping for a college that provides a mandated degree (such as for law, medicine, engineering, etc.)

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January 01, 2012, 08:25:33 AM
 #12

Groups all over the world force bad systems into place. One of them is the best. Not surprising.

Let's hear a better system then? One that has all the benefits of the Finnish system, and then some.

I've heard really good things about Montessori schools, but I'm not sure what benefits you're looking for beyond "the children learn what they need to." What more should a school be obligated to provide?


I've had mixed experience with Montessori methodology. And that's what it is, a methodology, not a school system. You could use Montessori methods in the school system, and I think the Finns do that to some extent. If you read the article you'll see that they focus on educating while playing, something Montessori recognized the importance of very early.
My experience with Montessori is mixed like I said. They do teach some things very well, but they lack others, so moving from Montessori to higher education isn't always trouble free since there's often certain skills missing.


Well, I tend to agree, the methodology used is probably more important than the school system, since any given school system can use any given methodology (or take whichever parts it wants.) I could see some difficulty with going from a fairly unstructured setup straight to college/university without some prepping. But if the degree isn't that important for the intended occupation or field, I don't see why there should ever be a need to enter those institutions (and pay that $$$, or have someone else do so.)

I'm interested in your experience with Montessori.  Did you learn under that methodology yourself, or aid in a school using it? Or have you been close to a family that dealt with it? I've only heard secondhand accounts, albeit positive ones; I'd love to hear an actual testimony.

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January 01, 2012, 06:34:35 PM
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God damn it, they're at it again, those damn collectivists create the best school in the world.

Best? No, that would be China according to the sources your article uses. What's your point?
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January 02, 2012, 07:34:39 AM
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This is a useless study.  It compares government school systems to each other, based on arbitrary metrics comparing scores between groups of 15 year olds (an arbitrary age) in testing for arbitrarily chosen subjects.  It would be trivial for any number of different private school systems in the US to crush Finland's numbers.  Average scores for US students in government sponsored schools in the US suck, in part, because everyone knows that they suck so many parents with means don't send their children to government schools, so those government schools suck more.  Compare Finland's scores to say, Covington Latin in Covington, Kentucky or St Francis High School in Downtown Louisville, Kentucky or Highlands Latin School in the Highlands district of Louisville, Kentucky and these scores would be embarressing.  And those three are just a few that I could think of off the top of my head.  For that matter, just comparing Finland's average scoring to the average American homeschooled high school aged student would make a lot of Finnish schoolteachers question the effectiveness of their careers considering what the average, untrained parent educator can do.

Of course the subjects, group and age are arbitrary. How else would you conduct a study if you don't select what you want to study, and who?
So the schools you named, they are attainable to anyone? Without cost to the individual family? Same with homeschooling? I would agree with you that a personal tutor would probably yield better results, but that's not a realistic option. 
Here you have a school that provides education for everyone, on par with the best countries in the world, with less time spent.

Let's see a better system that enables all kids from a low income families to have the same chance as anybody else if they're just willing to work for it, not a system that favours the rich and stacks the deck against the poor.
Unless you're actually suggesting sending all kids in the US to those private schools that "would crush Finland's numbers" for a good and free education.

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January 02, 2012, 01:32:28 PM
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This is a useless study.  It compares government school systems to each other, based on arbitrary metrics comparing scores between groups of 15 year olds (an arbitrary age) in testing for arbitrarily chosen subjects.  It would be trivial for any number of different private school systems in the US to crush Finland's numbers.  Average scores for US students in government sponsored schools in the US suck, in part, because everyone knows that they suck so many parents with means don't send their children to government schools, so those government schools suck more.  Compare Finland's scores to say, Covington Latin in Covington, Kentucky or St Francis High School in Downtown Louisville, Kentucky or Highlands Latin School in the Highlands district of Louisville, Kentucky and these scores would be embarressing.  And those three are just a few that I could think of off the top of my head.  For that matter, just comparing Finland's average scoring to the average American homeschooled high school aged student would make a lot of Finnish schoolteachers question the effectiveness of their careers considering what the average, untrained parent educator can do.

Of course the subjects, group and age are arbitrary. How else would you conduct a study if you don't select what you want to study, and who?
So the schools you named, they are attainable to anyone? Without cost to the individual family? Same with homeschooling? I would agree with you that a personal tutor would probably yield better results, but that's not a realistic option. 
Here you have a school that provides education for everyone, on par with the best countries in the world, with less time spent.

Let's see a better system that enables all kids from a low income families to have the same chance as anybody else if they're just willing to work for it, not a system that favours the rich and stacks the deck against the poor.
Unless you're actually suggesting sending all kids in the US to those private schools that "would crush Finland's numbers" for a good and free education.

The education is not free, someone has to pay for it.  Regardless, I have personally seen relatively poor families do very well while homeschooling, and I personally attended a private school that did and does accept students whose parents cannot pay for tuition.  Homeschooling, generally speaking, is a much cheaper option than any other method; including taxpayer supported education.  And with much better results.  Furthermore, one can literally homeschool via an online 'distance learning' program associated with a state funded university for zero personal cost, and the results are similar.  They are often called 'virtual schools'.  So from a certain perspective, the US could literally homeschool every child willing to participate in that manner with a quality and free-to-them education.  Whether or not the results would be competitive to Finland under such circumstances, I would not hazard a guess.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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January 02, 2012, 03:50:47 PM
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The education is not free, someone has to pay for it.  Regardless, I have personally seen relatively poor families do very well while homeschooling, and I personally attended a private school that did and does accept students whose parents cannot pay for tuition.  Homeschooling, generally speaking, is a much cheaper option than any other method; including taxpayer supported education.  And with much better results.  Furthermore, one can literally homeschool via an online 'distance learning' program associated with a state funded university for zero personal cost, and the results are similar.  They are often called 'virtual schools'.  So from a certain perspective, the US could literally homeschool every child willing to participate in that manner with a quality and free-to-them education.  Whether or not the results would be competitive to Finland under such circumstances, I would not hazard a guess.

"Free" for the person receiving the education. I'm well aware of how education is funded. As for the poor doing well with homeschooling, would you say that that is the norm, or the exception? Single moms with three kids genreally don't have time to homeschool their kids. Should we just consider those kids screwed and move on?
So your school will admit anyone who shows up at their doorstep, for free? Doesn't sound plausable. That's not a system that will help everyone, just a lucky few.
You have no idea how well virtual schools work, you just assume that it would scale up to any number of participants and somehow be better than how Finland does things? And did you also see how they manage not only to educate their kids, but also make sure that everyone got properly fed so that they could benefit from the education as well?
I'm not saying that this is the best way that will ever be when it comes to education, but compared to everything else right now it looks pretty awsome.

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January 02, 2012, 10:09:29 PM
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As for the poor doing well with homeschooling, would you say that that is the norm, or the exception?


Homeschooling is already an exception, so I doubt the question means anything.  But within the (self-selecting) homeschooling community itself, success as measured relative to the 'average' is quite high regardless of social class, parental income or racial background.  There have only been a few major studies done upon adult homeschoolers, but they all seem to imply that the differences between those catagories are below the margin of error.  Said another way, the odds of success in college (and life in general, if measured by income or final educational level attained) for a homeschooled student are both higher and indistingishable regardless of classification or group identity.

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Single moms with three kids genreally don't have time to homeschool their kids. Should we just consider those kids screwed and move on?


Although I can agree that the mom's time is precious, I don't agree that those kids are screwed.

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So your school will admit anyone who shows up at their doorstep, for free?


Not anyone, but some.  And yes, for free to the parents.  It's called charity, and those who accept it know damn well that they are not entitled to it.  I attended a private school that was wholely owned and operated by the local Catholic archdiociese.  It was the kind of school that when founded, students there were more likely than not to be children of first generation Irish immigrants.  These days, about one in five of the students are children of first generation hispanic immigrants.  There is still a convent on the property, although they don't teach anymore and didn't teach when I was there; I did have one class taught by a monk.

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 Doesn't sound plausable. That's not a system that will help everyone, just a lucky few.


Lucky few, correct.  And they know it and are thankful for it.  Some grow up to become truely successful, and repay in kind by donating back to the school even if they are not (or never were) Catholic.

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You have no idea how well virtual schools work, you just assume that it would scale up to any number of participants and somehow be better than how Finland does things?

If you had actually bothered to read what I wrote, I mentioned that I had no idea what the outcome of widespread use of virtual schools would be.  I'm sure that if they prove to be wildly successful, it wouldn't be terriblely long before the Finns replicated that success in their own way.

Quote

And did you also see how they manage not only to educate their kids, but also make sure that everyone got properly fed so that they could benefit from the education as well?


School lunch & breakfast programs are widely common here in the US as well, even if they might not be universal.  I've never seen a grade school that didn't provide both, and that includes the one that I attended when I attended it back in the 80's.  I'm sure that the details vary from state to state, but Finland is pretty small so choose any state program you like and feel free to make comparisons.

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I'm not saying that this is the best way that will ever be when it comes to education, but compared to everything else right now it looks pretty awsome.

Only because you are seeing what they want you to see.  It's the unseen that is most troublesome.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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January 03, 2012, 07:18:24 AM
 #18

Groups all over the world force bad systems into place. One of them is the best. Not surprising.

Let's hear a better system then? One that has all the benefits of the Finnish system, and then some.

That's like forcing everyone to buy one type of car, the government car and when I say stop forcing us to use the government car you ask me to redesign the government car. I don't want a system, systems suck, and using a government system brings all kinds of perverse incentives.

In the future (I'm optimistic that we've hit peak government) there will be as many educations as there are people.

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January 03, 2012, 07:31:55 AM
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For the record, I was homeschooled from birth and ironically, I also ran several different schools in South Korea that were all Montessori curriculum, certified by the Montessori society. It's pretty fun stuff but in the US, I think it's almost the same thing as homeschooling.

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January 03, 2012, 04:55:41 PM
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For the record, I was homeschooled from birth and ironically, I also ran several different schools in South Korea that were all Montessori curriculum, certified by the Montessori society. It's pretty fun stuff but in the US, I think it's almost the same thing as homeschooling.

I take it you never went to traditional schools then, either public or private? Just curious, feel free to ignore if you don't want to dig too far into your educational background.

Bitcoin is the ultimate freedom test. It tells you who is giving lip service and who genuinely believes in it.
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In the future, books that summarize the history of money will have a line that says, “and then came bitcoin.” It is the economic singularity. And we are living in it now. - Ryan Dickherber
...
...
ATTENTION BFL MINING NEWBS: Just got your Jalapenos in? Wondering how to get the most value for the least hassle? Give BitMinter a try! It's a smaller pool with a fair & low-fee payment method, lots of statistical feedback, and it's easier than EasyMiner! (Yes, we want your hashing power, but seriously, it IS the easiest pool to use! Sign up in seconds to try it!)
...
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The idea that deflation causes hoarding (to any problematic degree) is a lie used to justify theft of value from your savings.
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