If I started my own nation...

[Bit_Happy]

First you start with all these good intentions and then you will gradually abolish them when you have to confront reality... I guess that's what history teaches us. 
You promise a lot of things but offer no explanation how you could keep your promises. If you want me to join your nation, you have to give more thoughtful guidance.

History teaches us nothing.

History teaches us everything

History teaches us what the winners wants us to think has happened in the past.

The Truth About History:
The truth lies somewhere in between all the other lies. 

[KIRAZ]

Well there's a good start .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JSpV37MFEJc

[blacksails]

I think none really wants to hurt other humans. The ones that does it does it because they feel forced to do so.
Therefore, convince them that they don't have to do so, and they won't kill.

Pacifism is a failed idea. I am not falling for it ever again. Crime will happen, no matter how much love and affection you shower upon the would be criminals. Nothing can be done about it.

Pacifism is how we should live. And as Ghandi said, "Be the change you want to see". If everyone do their parts the world would be a much nicer place. But thanks to attitudes like your nothing happens, because "there is nothing that can be done about it".

you my friends live in fairytales, that isn't real life

if ordered, they will kill

they do crime even without orders, look at american soldiers which pissed on muslim graves and shot civilians from their aircraft..

what would they do if someone ordered them to kill?

Yeah, they do that, because those people are assholes. But to be fair, not all soldiers murder because they think it's funny. They do it because it's their "duty". However, if they realize it's not their duty to murder a lot of things would change.
It's well known that during WW2 many soldiers just pretended to fire at the enemy because they didn't want to get blood on their hands.
Sure, drones, it's like a video game, and therefore it makes it a lot easier to kill. So let's just ban drones. Simple as that.

get it in your head that we can't make them realize

we should own the mass media and make propaganda for years to come

we can't do that

we may be the change we want to see but others won't, you know that the nice guy always gets fucked up..

that's something you learn in life

Then what would be the point? If we started a nation and ran it like all other nations runs theirs, then we wouldn't be different. Someone has to take the first step, simple as that. To quote Candide: "Excellently observed," answered Candide; "but let us cultivate our garden."

[Lauda]

History teaches us everything

History teaches us what the winners wants us to think has happened in the past.

The Truth About History:
The truth lies somewhere in between all the other lies. 

Half of the History that we learn is incorrect.

[Kiki112]

you my friends live in fairytales, that isn't real life

if ordered, they will kill

they do crime even without orders, look at american soldiers which pissed on muslim graves and shot civilians from their aircraft..

what would they do if someone ordered them to kill?

I've talked to some soldiers on one occurrence and found quite the contrary.

you have no idea what real war is

I live nearly 18 km away from Vukovar the place where they killed over a 1000 civilians, they pushed an old man into boiling water, they've beaten up people just because they're Croats, they raped women just so they can kill them afterwards, all of that just because we're Croats, all of that just because we wanted freedom

77-year old man, 16-year old boy, it doesn't matter to them

after,you'll discover their goverment is hiding the criminals for years to come

the UN will help us?

the UN was there, Russian UNs just got drunk with Serbians along the border others just held the line even preventing us to regain our territory, Serbs entered the city when we moved so the red-cross could pass

over 700 grenades were fired every day at the hospital which had a red cross sign in front of it, they saw the sign, it doesn't matter

this is what war is

and this was an attack on a nation with 5 million residents, how would we the "islanders" with just a few thousand people defend from a much mightier nation?

you know nothing until you live it

I know that my father got shot, I know that they shot at my pregnant mother, I know that they enjoyed torturing people

I would give my life any day for freedom, but don't make stupid decisions, if war can be avoided it must be

Then what would be the point? If we started a nation and ran it like all other nations runs theirs, then we wouldn't be different. Someone has to take the first step, simple as that. To quote Candide: "Excellently observed," answered Candide; "but let us cultivate our garden."

we can do whatever we want but it must be in international waters, we can't just occupy someones island

[lepirate]

you my friends live in fairytales, that isn't real life

if ordered, they will kill

they do crime even without orders, look at american soldiers which pissed on muslim graves and shot civilians from their aircraft..

what would they do if someone ordered them to kill?

I've talked to some soldiers on one occurrence and found quite the contrary.

you have no idea what real war is

I live nearly 18 km away from Vukovar the place where they killed over a 1000 civilians, they pushed an old man into boiling water, they've beaten up people just because they're Croats, they raped women just so they can kill them afterwards, all of that just because we're Croats, all of that just because we wanted freedom

77-year old man, 16-year old boy, it doesn't matter to them

after,you'll discover their goverment is hiding the criminals for years to come

this is war

you know nothing until you live it

I know how my father got shot, I know how they shot at my pregnant mother, I know how they enjoyed torturing people which they found

I would give my life any day for freedom, but don't make stupid decisions, if war can be avoided it must be

Then what would be the point? If we started a nation and ran it like all other nations runs theirs, then we wouldn't be different. Someone has to take the first step, simple as that. To quote Candide: "Excellently observed," answered Candide; "but let us cultivate our garden."

we can do whatever we want but it must be in international waters, we can't just occupy someones island

I'm sorry to hear about your experiences from the Balkan war. Horrible things happened and there was massacres from all sides.
But hypothetically, if one of the involved nations had decided not to even have guns, would all the massacres have occurred then? Probably not in that area. Would they have been free? Maybe not, but as long as they didn't make to much noise they'd be left alone. And when the war was over that nation would declare independence using diplomatic means. War will only be avoided if there are no people willing to kill. So if one side decides not to have any weapons, then no bullets will be fired. The citizens could make some kind of civil resistance, refuse to leave the area. Not many nations are willing to get the bad publicity caused from killing defenseless civilians. Especially if they only were in war with a nation that they didn't even recognize.

Building in international waters would be a good idea, if it wasn't for the cost of building stable ground there.

[Kiki112]

I'm sorry to hear about your experiences from the Balkan war. Horrible things happened and there was massacres from all sides.
But hypothetically, if one of the involved nations had decided not to even have guns, would all the massacres have occurred then? Probably not in that area. Would they have been free? Maybe not, but as long as they didn't make to much noise they'd be left alone. And when the war was over that nation would declare independence using diplomatic means. War will only be avoided if there are no people willing to kill. So if one side decides not to have any weapons, then no bullets will be fired. The citizens could make some kind of civil resistance, refuse to leave the area. Not many nations are willing to get the bad publicity caused from killing defenseless civilians. Especially if they only were in war with a nation that they didn't even recognize

our independence was declared by diplomatic means, but they decided that creating a Great Serbia is much more important then diplomatic fairness

if one of the involved nations had decided not to even have guns

we didn't have any guns, Yugoslavian army was stationed in Belgrade and therefore we had 0 aircrafts, 0 tanks, 0 everything

when they invaded, only thing left to defend with was the police, they were the only ones with guns

but they weren't spared, they massacred 12 officers right in my town, peeling off their skin shows how much they enjoyed it

other nations have forbidden selling guns to any of the Balkan nations but Serbia had the YNA 3rd strongest army in Europe and we were unarmed

but it has been a thousand years since the Croatian kingdom, we wanted independence so bad, we never even thought about surrendering even though we didn't have enough food,water and ammo, we didn't fight only for our country but for our families, the memories in our towns and basically for freedom

we didn't have any bombs so we threw gas cylinders from agricultural planes because we didn't have any aircrafts, we didn't have any army rifles so we used hunting rifles, it took time until we gathered money to gain some weapons but we gained them, that is why we won the war, the will for freedom

So if one side decides not to have any weapons, then no bullets will be fired

that might be true for our island, but here it wasn't as their plan was to establish a Great Serbia from the Mihailovic plans which stated that all unserbs should be removed from the area, that is what their soldiers did
if they couldn't kill everyone they would simply send them go home trough a mine field, some would come, some wouldn't

The citizens could make some kind of civil resistance, refuse to leave the area

the city was surrounded for almost 3 months
even if someone wanted to leave he couldn't

Horrible things happened and there was massacres from all sides.

not from our side, even if we wanted to we didn't have the equipment for massacres

what I learned is that the will for freedom is greater then any armed force in the world
but it costs lives

if we can we should build it in international waters where no lives will be lost

[Thyaga]

If I started my own nation, would you join?
Would you be willing to by military means defend against the country from which we stole our territory from?
We would be a nation with the principles of "Be nice" (yes, marijuana would be legal).
We would be a nation where you only work a few hours a week with communal stuff like farming, fishing or building, and in exchange you'd get a house to live in and organic food (and most of the time you could whatever you want, like: lie on the beach and getting high).
Weapons would be banned unless we were invaded (there would be no reason to have them otherwise).
Hard drugs would be illegal (like heroin or cocain).
We would live in harmony with nature, and our electricity would be 100% renewable.
We would have a direct-democracy, so everyone could get their voice through.
Yeah, basically start an utopia?

Which of you would join?

What about in Bali, which is the first largest payment for bitcoin

[lepirate]

I'm sorry to hear about your experiences from the Balkan war. Horrible things happened and there was massacres from all sides.
But hypothetically, if one of the involved nations had decided not to even have guns, would all the massacres have occurred then? Probably not in that area. Would they have been free? Maybe not, but as long as they didn't make to much noise they'd be left alone. And when the war was over that nation would declare independence using diplomatic means. War will only be avoided if there are no people willing to kill. So if one side decides not to have any weapons, then no bullets will be fired. The citizens could make some kind of civil resistance, refuse to leave the area. Not many nations are willing to get the bad publicity caused from killing defenseless civilians. Especially if they only were in war with a nation that they didn't even recognize

our independence was declared by diplomatic means, but they decided that creating a Great Serbia is much more important then diplomatic fairness

Yes, but Serbia (Yugoslavia) was a country just coming out from years of communist rule. They didn't want Yugoslavia to be divided, they wanted power. Therefore they attacked. This was not a free democratic country.
I don't know about OP:s plan, but I got the impression that he would steal the island from some more "westernized" country that would not be able to do anything.

[Kiki112]

I'm sorry to hear about your experiences from the Balkan war. Horrible things happened and there was massacres from all sides.
But hypothetically, if one of the involved nations had decided not to even have guns, would all the massacres have occurred then? Probably not in that area. Would they have been free? Maybe not, but as long as they didn't make to much noise they'd be left alone. And when the war was over that nation would declare independence using diplomatic means. War will only be avoided if there are no people willing to kill. So if one side decides not to have any weapons, then no bullets will be fired. The citizens could make some kind of civil resistance, refuse to leave the area. Not many nations are willing to get the bad publicity caused from killing defenseless civilians. Especially if they only were in war with a nation that they didn't even recognize

our independence was declared by diplomatic means, but they decided that creating a Great Serbia is much more important then diplomatic fairness

Yes, but Serbia (Yugoslavia) was a country just coming out from years of communist rule. They didn't want Yugoslavia to be divided, they wanted power. Therefore they attacked. This was not a free democratic country.
I don't know about OP:s plan, but I got the impression that he would steal the island from some more "westernized" country that would not be able to do anything.

that is true but they would still try to liberate the island and when we put up a fight they would be forced to shoot..

[IIOII]

First you start with all these good intentions and then you will gradually abolish them when you have to confront reality... I guess that's what history teaches us.  
You promise a lot of things but offer no explanation how you could keep your promises. If you want me to join your nation, you have to give more thoughtful guidance.

History teaches us nothing.

History teaches us everything

History teaches us what the winners wants us to think has happened in the past.

The Truth About History:
The truth lies somewhere in between all the other lies.  

The truth is that there is no truth and even this sentence might not be true.

[dank]

How about acting in love instead of fear and moving away from the problem to create more problems.  Love those around you and we can create a world of peace where we are.  Your mindset controls your reality.

[bryant.coleman]

that is true but they would still try to liberate the island and when we put up a fight they would be forced to shoot..

Why talk about something that happened more than 2 decades ago? Looking at the casualty numbers from the Balkan wars, more than one-third of the dead were Serbs. That means all the three sides (Muslims, Serbs, Croats) were guilty of committing war crimes. Also, if you dig back the events of 1990s, the Serbs will also remember you the genocides committed by the Ustaše during the WW2, in which close to one million Serbs were butchered by the Croats and their Nazi supporters. 

[Kiki112]

that is true but they would still try to liberate the island and when we put up a fight they would be forced to shoot..

Why talk about something that happened more than 2 decades ago? Looking at the casualty numbers from the Balkan wars, more than one-third of the dead were Serbs. That means all the three sides (Muslims, Serbs, Croats) were guilty of committing war crimes. Also, if you dig back the events of 1990s, the Serbs will also remember you the genocides committed by the Ustaše during the WW2, in which close to one million Serbs were butchered by the Croats and their Nazi supporters.  

sorry to say this, but that's complete bullshit

the only war-crimes Croats were occused for is the one in SAO Krajina around Knin where almost 180 000 Serbs fled, but wait

no murders!

you can find plenty of evidence online that Serbs organized a plan to evacuate all Serbs outside the city because they were afraid of operation Storm, and which they did

you can find data, even videos where Serbian soldiers in tanks ran over their own civilians (ethnic Serbs of course) just to flee the area, most Serbs that died there were killed by Serbs and no one else

We did no war crimes in our war of independence, no matter how hard you try to prove otherwise it is not true, that is why the Hague court released our general Ante Gotovina as a free man because there was no organized crime

about the WW2, first of all

in which close to one million Serbs were butchered

only Serbs claim these numbers, this is the data that Yugoslavia sent to get bigger war reparations from Germany

in these number were counted all Croats killed in WW2 (500 000 killed by partisans + some killed by Serbian Chetniks + some killed by Ustashe)
total number (official number) of killed Serbs in Jasenovac is 45 000

while partisans killed over 50 000 Croats only in Bleiburg, without mentioning Kočevski rog, other hospitals etc.

that number is even more ridiculous because if a million Serbs were murdered there wouldn't be any of them left

or you're  one of those Serbian mythomans who believe that Serbs discovered America, that they are the first nation in the world and that everyone descended from the Serbs?

if you judge the crimes done in WW2, USA should also be punished, they killed over a 100 000 civilians with nuclear weapons

Ustashe killed 45 000

that is the 2WW and I don't see how Ustashe are related to Croatia

How do you compare a quisling goverment with a modern nation that was forged by anti-facist fighting?
Croatian constitution states that the country is forged by anti-facist Partisans and therefor Ustashe don't even have a slighest bit or relation with modern Croatia

if we were to judge modern countries for crimes of their quislings from 2WW, there would be no country that wasn't sued..

[Kiki112]

How about acting in love instead of fear and moving away from the problem to create more problems.  Love those around you and we can create a world of peace where we are.  Your mindset controls your reality.

this only works if everyone takes it in notice, and the odds of that happening are unfortunately really low 

[bryant.coleman]

Ustashe killed 45 000

OMG! Even the Ustase veterans would laugh at those numbers.

[sosulon]

How about acting in love instead of fear and moving away from the problem to create more problems.  Love those around you and we can create a world of peace where we are.  Your mindset controls your reality.

this only works if everyone takes it in notice, and the odds of that happening are unfortunately really low 

Majority wins I guess

[Kiki112]

Ustashe killed 45 000

OMG! Even the Ustase veterans would laugh at those numbers.

80 000 in total

45 000 Serbs

you can even find the list of all victims here sorted by their nationalities, last names etc.

quite a lot of the people with my surname

http://www.jusp-jasenovac.hr/Default.aspx?sid=6284


also you can read these estimates..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jasenovac_concentration_camp


just a question, are you Serbian or Russian?
because only one of those 2 nations are capable of believing such bullshit

besides I still don't understand what Ustashe have to do with Croatia?

Even Nedićs Serbia sent letters to Hitler claiming "Serbien is juden frei"


Before Yugoslavia,Triune Kingdom of Croatia,Slavonia and Dalmatia in 1910. had only 650 000 Serbs, how could Ustashe kill a million?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Croatia-Slavonia#Demographics

Ustase veterans

there are no Ustashe veterans, they were all murdered by partisans

you're not up to date

when the german puppet state failed the partisans massacred everyone in relation with the old goverment including neigbours,relatives, friends etc. of someone who used to be an Ustasha

so yeah, only around 2% of them lived, by now time has surely ran them over

[bryant.coleman]

just a question, are you Serbian or Russian?
because only one of those 2 nations are capable of believing such bullshit

I am from South Asia. I haven't met any Serbs or Russians in my life. I don't know any Serbian or Russian language.

So, according to you, every one in this world except the Serbs and the Russians are pro-US?

[Kiki112]

just a question, are you Serbian or Russian?
because only one of those 2 nations are capable of believing such bullshit

I am from South Asia. I haven't met any Serbs or Russians in my life. I don't know any Serbian or Russian language.

So, according to you, every one in this world except the Serbs and the Russians are pro-US?

what does this have to do with the US?
the US fucked up both nations

destroyed Croatian Republic of Herzeg-Bosnia in the Washington agreement and bombed Serbia for Kosovo..
in 20 years, 30% of Croats disapperead from Bosnia&Herzegovina just because we didn't get our own entity, just a few escaped during war, HVO (Croatian council of defense) liberated over 50% of Bosnia&Herzegovina and we didn't even get an entity which Serbians did, that caused massive moving..

I myself originate from Herzegovina, and the US should be sued for screwing the country up

3 consecutive nations, 2 entities, 1 country
only in Bosnia&Herzegovina..

and how did this get screwed up?
Washington agreement..

sorry about the mistake, but I haven't ever saw anyone except Serbians supporting this theory about a million man death but as they're in a tight relationship with Russians and I saw some of your posts supporting Russians in the politics section just assumed you're Russian and somehow in talks with Serbians caught up in the Serbian propaganda

I wasn't trying to be offensive, but quite a lot of Serbians spam around the web with that kind of lies..