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Author Topic: Blockchain 2.0 – Let a Thousand Chains Blossom  (Read 8128 times)
sickpig (OP)
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April 10, 2014, 06:18:37 PM
 #21

"these guys" who?

The guys behind Blockchain 2.0.

I find the idea of 2way peg sidechains and its applications fascinating and useful.

Having said that I don't need anyone granting me the permission  to jump to anyone train. As long as my own interest has a not null interceptions with the one of "these guys" there's no need to jump whatsoever Smiley

Bitcoin is a participatory system which ought to respect the right of self determinism of all of its users - Gregory Maxwell.
windpath
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April 10, 2014, 06:20:32 PM
 #22

This is an intriguing idea (emphasis mine):

Quote
We are a “blockchain 2.0” company.  Although I personally care for the success of Bitcoin, it is important to distinguish between bitcoin the asset and the blockchain as a programmable distributed trust infrastructure.  And we are interested in blockchain 2.0 and blockchain 2.0 using Bitcoin as a neutral transactional currency we believe is a great, offers great promise but I want to build a blockchain that could support a nation-state putting its national currency and phasing out paper dollars.

The versatility of Bitcoin is truly amazing...
virtuexru
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April 10, 2014, 06:22:48 PM
 #23

These guys r interested in their own profit. Why do u think u'll jump their train?

Umm.. profit from what exactly? Care to expand on your stupid ass comment?
franky1
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April 10, 2014, 06:25:35 PM
 #24

Nope but aye! Random color patterns that tickles my OCD

never admit you have OCD, or this will happen

abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz
ayxwvutsrqponmlkjihgfedcbz
abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz
abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz

I DO NOT TRADE OR ACT AS ESCROW ON THIS FORUM EVER.
Please do your own research & respect what is written here as both opinion & information gleaned from experience. many people replying with insults but no on-topic content substance, automatically are 'facepalmed' and yawned at
Come-from-Beyond
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April 10, 2014, 06:26:45 PM
 #25

These guys r interested in their own profit. Why do u think u'll jump their train?

Umm.. profit from what exactly? Care to expand on your stupid ass comment?

If u didn't get it then ask ur mom.
virtuexru
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April 10, 2014, 06:29:32 PM
 #26

These guys r interested in their own profit. Why do u think u'll jump their train?

Umm.. profit from what exactly? Care to expand on your stupid ass comment?

If u didn't get it then ask ur mom.

Another stupid ass comment with no actual facts. Cheers mate, you're just making yourself look worse. Might as well stop while you're ahead.
gweedo
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April 10, 2014, 06:33:07 PM
 #27

Instead of building Bitcoin 2.0 lets just put all resources to making bitcoin succeed we haven't yet and there's still a lot of work to do. Until then all bitcoin/blockchain base currencies are a waste of time.
Come-from-Beyond
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April 10, 2014, 06:38:36 PM
 #28

Another stupid ass comment with no actual facts. Cheers mate, you're just making yourself look worse. Might as well stop while you're ahead.

Look worse? Pity that my bright orange ignore button is not visible now. U wouldn't waste time on posting ur opinion in this case. Better find a girl, maybe she will be interested in what u saying.
virtuexru
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April 10, 2014, 06:44:01 PM
 #29

Another stupid ass comment with no actual facts. Cheers mate, you're just making yourself look worse. Might as well stop while you're ahead.

Look worse? Pity that my bright orange ignore button is not visible now. U wouldn't waste time on posting ur opinion in this case. Better find a girl, maybe she will be interested in what u saying.

Eotnak
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April 10, 2014, 07:08:27 PM
 #30

IMO the best news I've heard in months.  I hope it succeeds.
devphp
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April 10, 2014, 07:11:48 PM
 #31

The more competition, the better.
Market will decide the winner and losers.
Bit_Happy
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April 10, 2014, 08:12:52 PM
 #32

Instead of building Bitcoin 2.0 lets just put all resources to making bitcoin succeed we haven't yet and there's still a lot of work to do. Until then all bitcoin/blockchain base currencies are a waste of time.

Agreed that Bitcoin needs to succeed and resources are required to make that happen.

sickpig (OP)
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April 10, 2014, 08:32:12 PM
 #33

Instead of building Bitcoin 2.0 lets just put all resources to making bitcoin succeed we haven't yet and there's still a lot of work to do. Until then all bitcoin/blockchain base currencies are a waste of time.

Agreed that Bitcoin needs to succeed and resources are required to make that happen.

Sure.

As I see it that they're working to improve bitcoin, the actual bitcoin not a alter-ego 2.0.

It seems to me that they're not building a new cryptocurr from scratch, they're leveraging the value of the blockchain to remove potential risks for the bitcoin survival.

Among all the things they talk about the more important to me are:

- preserve bitcoin scarcity,
- increase the pace of innovation without risking to make everything collaps
- increase/preserve fungibility

Anyway I'm eagerly waiting for official material/whitepaper, as of now the words of Adam Back should suffice as guarantee of the value of the proposal.

Bitcoin is a participatory system which ought to respect the right of self determinism of all of its users - Gregory Maxwell.
smooth
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April 10, 2014, 09:03:57 PM
 #34

- increase the pace of innovation without risking to make everything collaps

The risk is that the proposal could create gatekeepers to innovation via the big bitcoin mining pools, because only the "2.0" chains the big pools agree to merge mine (that may not quite be the right phrase) will get to participate in this two-way peg.

If I had to guess I'd say that is somehow part of their business model, but we'll have to wait and see.
fryarminer
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April 10, 2014, 10:46:29 PM
 #35

Nakomoto is a genius with an innovative idea.

Everyone else is just trying to copy - to see if they can cash in big if their altcoin or "2.0" coin flies.

Strength in Bitcoin would be if we stick to making the original Bitcoin better.
Peter R
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April 10, 2014, 10:47:46 PM
Last edit: April 11, 2014, 06:58:12 PM by Peter R
 #36

Instead of building Bitcoin 2.0 lets just put all resources to making bitcoin succeed we haven't yet and there's still a lot of work to do. Until then all bitcoin/blockchain base currencies are a waste of time.

Agreed that Bitcoin needs to succeed and resources are required to make that happen.

Strength in Bitcoin would be if we stick to making the original Bitcoin better.


It is an interesting concept, but from where I currently stand (there's no white paper), it seems to me this adds risk to the very core of bitcoin for the purpose of allowing side chains of questionable utility.  Let's work together to first make bitcoin succeed as is.  

I'd rather keep experimental alt coins on their own independent networks.  We can still bootstrap them in a non-inflationary manner from a snapshot of the blockchain using the concept of "spin-offs":  https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=563972.0

Run Bitcoin Unlimited (www.bitcoinunlimited.info)
sickpig (OP)
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April 11, 2014, 06:53:47 PM
 #37

- increase the pace of innovation without risking to make everything collaps

The risk is that the proposal could create gatekeepers to innovation via the big bitcoin mining pools, because only the "2.0" chains the big pools agree to merge mine (that may not quite be the right phrase) will get to participate in this two-way peg.

this is definitely a valid point.

mining concentration is a major concern that has to be "solved" someway, and 2-way peg sidechains do not have any cure for it  IMHO.   

it's all a matter of incentive. e.g. a way to make p2pool less cumbersome and as efficent as possible has to be found.

or maybe we need to find a way for the people to partecipate to a pool without being a mere hasher but a real miner, if memory serves Adam Back in LTB E77 briefly talk about this.   

 


Bitcoin is a participatory system which ought to respect the right of self determinism of all of its users - Gregory Maxwell.
jparsley
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April 11, 2014, 07:12:51 PM
 #38

Blockchain2.0, i'll keep an eye out for it.

please unban me.
g4c
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April 11, 2014, 08:28:45 PM
 #39

I like the idea, so the main chain would have some of it's original coins migrating to the new chains thus keeping constant token scarcity.

Q)
Would heirachy exist, or could a new chain bud potentially outgrow the "main chain" and thus be seen as the new "main chain"?

CORTEX7 Multi exchange Bitcoin trading client for Win, Mac, Nix, Android.
bytemaster
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April 12, 2014, 03:11:27 AM
 #40

Blockchain 2.0 is based upon an economic fallacy of a 'scarcity race', the security fallacy of hash power, and has a giant security hole that would compromise entire side chains.  It has embraced a concept of centralization in a one-world currency, one block chain, etc.  It has embraced barriers to entry by not enabling support for cross-chain-trading.



Based on this description it works just like a system I designed last fall in my effort to create parallel chains with shared supply.  The problem is that when using pow the side chain funds can be completely robbed because the main chain cannot validate anything but the existence of the trx on the side chain.  So to do this the btc miners still have to do full validation on all side chains. 

This major security risk has not been mitigated.

In other words 51% attack on side chain allows attacker to steal full balance of side chain by transferring 100 % of it back to btc chain under their control.   Btc miners would see the transaction exists on the side chain but have no way of knowing it was invalid because they blindly trust the hash power. 

This makes new side chains very vulnerable unless all btc miners merge mine it.

If you eliminate the contrived idea of a scarcity race and the false security of hash power there is nothing to this Blockchain 2.0.   

Integrating a technology like BTS X into a side chain would require significant R&D... the ideas behind BTS X are easy, implementing them is much harder.  Assuming BitBTC works then we have achieved a peg with BTC already without needing their system.  Cross-chain-trading is all that Bitcoin needs to support, could be implemented today without any modifications.  You do not see Bitcoin developers / mining pool operators working to enable this support which would literally be a few lines of code to add it to the standard transaction type.

The bitcoin elite (pool operators and miners) *own* the sha256 space and thus want to expand their monopoly.  Bitcoin has a network effect, but with cross-chain-trading that network effect can quickly and easily benefit all alt-chains... but their behavior demonstrates that they have been corrupted by the ring of power.  Like the elite before them they are inventing economic concepts (scarcity race) just like the fed invents terms (QE, disinflation, paradox of thrift, etc) to justify their moves.  They are working with regulators already which means they will likely support moves to freeze accounts so that they can continue the gravy train.



These factors demonstrate to me that regardless of how large the BTC network effect is, they will not be able to out compete everyone because there will always be a market for a more decentralized system than bitcoin offers.

https://fractally.com - the next generation of decentralized autonomous organizations (DAOs).
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