TradeHill - suspension of US wire deposits / withdrawals

[Jered Kenna (TradeHill)]

http://tradehillblog.com/2012/01/04/announcement-us-wire-deposits-and-withdrawals-are-temporarily-suspended/

Dear Clients,

We’ve had an issue with our Citibank account and we’ll not be accepting
wire or ACH deposits or executing check, wire or ACH withdrawals for a
short period of time. All the funds are accounted for and we’ll re-commence
operations by Monday or Tuesday next week.

We’ve had an issue or two in the past with banking so we understand the
tension this causes for customers and us. However, we’ve always sorted out
it. There hasn’t been one incident where transactions weren’t executed
properly and accurately once the issue was solved.

If you have any questions, don’t hesitate to send an email to
info@tradehill.com.

Thank you very much!

Regards,
The TradeHill Team

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[cypherdoc]

the question is "why"?

[bulanula]

the question is "why"?

It is all part of the market manipulation plan.

[geek-trader]

the question is "why"?

I suspect the answer is somewhere along the lines of "banks suck".  But we all knew that already, right?  Isn't that why we support bitcoin?

My wife does payroll / HR, and she has problems with banks all the time, and that's for "traditional" businesses.  You add bitcoin and it's shady reputation into the mix, and I'm surprised crap like this doesn't happen more often.

[Jered Kenna (TradeHill)]

the question is "why"?

"banks suck"

If I were only allowed to give a two word reply that would be it.

They won't give me an answer which is unfortunately somewhat normal.
We're resolving it now but it's not simple to mix Bitcoin and conventional finance.
If you lie to the bank about what you do then it's easy enough but it will come back to bite you.
We've been 100% honest and transparent with the banks and while I believe it's the correct way to go about things it takes a considerable amount of time and brings a different set of problems. The amount of volume we do it would be idiotic to try and hide it.

I've explained Bitcoin to more bankers and surprisingly very few know anything about it.
It seems it's still a lot bigger in the tech scene than finance still at this point.

Jered

[eldentyrell]

They won't give me an answer which is unfortunately somewhat normal.

Bummer.

Is there some reason why this unreliability can't be countered with redundancy?  Like having accounts at three or four banks?

[Jered Kenna (TradeHill)]

They won't give me an answer which is unfortunately somewhat normal.

Bummer.

Is there some reason why this unreliability can't be countered with redundancy?  Like having accounts at three or four banks?

We've gone through a few banks. We haven't had any instances where the banks have said "you're ripping people off or doing something illegal" but they constantly evaluate the risk and they view Bitcoin as about as high risk as you can get. Even if we're running millions through a month it's still small potatoes to them. Additionally you'll never talk to the people that actually make these decisions. I doubt there's an exchange or any business that involves a lot of liquid capital that isn't constantly being attacked from every angle. Bitcoin is obviously an especially good target due to it's non reversible nature. It's a testament to our code and staff that we haven't been hacked or defrauded (except Dwolla) but even if you're constantly hit by attempted fraud which fails the bank won't be happy.

Unfortunately banks need to devote floors or even buildings to fraud prevention. It's an industry that I didn't realize the size of until I became personally involved. If you're not being hit then grow in size and reevaluate. I believe paypal loses around .5% annually to fraud and all of their practices we hate such as freezing my account when I sent a guy $0.25 I acidently shorted him on a previous transaction are aimed at preventing fraud.

If we lose half a percent to fraud we can't stay in business due to our margins being considerably smaller than Paypal's. So we need to be even more careful. The good news is we've been successful at it. I haven't sent a single Bitcoin or Dollar to a Nigerian prince to help get his dead uncle's funds in to the US.

Jered

[casascius]

We use Chase... I've had Chase lock us out for the stupidest reasons.

I received a QuickPay from somebody for $2000, and Chase locked out our business account for most of a day because they wanted that person to go into a Chase branch to show their identity before they would release it.  This person SENT us money, not the other way around... and our balance with Chase at the time was orders of magnitude larger than $2000.

Our balance with Chase, put it another way, is enough that we have a personal banking rep who will practically come to my house and deliver me a 20 dollar bill so I don't have to go to the ATM if I ask him to.  So naturally, I get to breathe down his back over the issue and tell him how stupid this is, and he goes to bat for us with Chase, which meant we were only locked out for 3/4 of a day instead of longer.  I grilled him... "the website for Chase QuickPay says it's ideal for receiving internet payments, and now we go do exactly that and suddenly we are locked out of X dollars while some guy in California shows his id at a branch???!?!?".  Yes, i suppose our personal banking rep deserves far more respect than I offered him that day, because it is his job to basically wait on us to help chase keep our business, and he knows I'm getting the shaft and he's just getting it from both ends.

Three days later, the exact same thing happens.  That time, it was only half a day until we were re-enabled.  At that point, I'm like, screw Chase quickpay I'm not touching this service ever again.

Oh, yeah, there was the time Chase declined an ATM withdrawal.  So I tried a couple more times at a couple more ATM's.  When I called Chase, they were like, "we locked you out because there were too many failed ATM withdrawal attempts on your account, and our policy is we will not unblock you for at least 24 hours while we sort it out."  I was like... what about the first attempt?  There would have not been any further attempts if the first one went through.  Their answer: "sorry... try us again in 24 hours."  And that's that.

[aq]

Sort of related advice:
Whenever funding your tradehill account with paxum, either use bitinstant or go to mtgox instead.

I made the mistake of trusting tradehills promise of "up to 24 hours". It took them almost 2 days to actually enable the funds into my account. While waiting the price rose more than $1.

When asked the tradehill support about the delay they replied:

I totally understand your concern and frustration with us. However, at this moment, we are processing these transactions manually and do not always have somebody available to do this.

Apparently a whole workday long no one was available to add funds, I guess I have consider myself lucky that someone did it on the second work day. If someone runs an exchange like a sporadic hobby, please be so honest and state this clearly on your website.

At the same time I transferred some funds to mtgox also using paxum. It took them about less than a minute to have the available in my account.
So my personal advice: use bitinstant or mtgox

[eldentyrell]

We use Chase... I've had Chase lock us out for the stupidest reasons.

...

Their answer: "sorry... try us again in 24 hours."  And that's that.

Um, so the obvious question here is, why are you still using Chase?

[tvbcof]

I was interested to see this Tradehill communique on MaxKeiser.com in my morning scans.  Posted by Max.  I know that these guys are interested in Bitcoin, but so far their coverage has been fairly mute.  I suspect that (like myself), they are hesitant to encourage people toward Bitcoin until it is more stable...insofar as a newbie is unlikely to lose a great deal of money by screwing with it that is.

Someone in the comments section of the maxkeiser blog mentioned that CITI has a habit of shuffling incoming money through multiple accounts.  I've been aggravated that my early wires were tradeble within hours, but for the last four months or so, it's been days from the time WF wires money to CITI to when Tradehill claims to 'see' the money in their account (according to their support.)  I did not know who to blame, exactly, so I neglected to blame anyone.  I still don't know who to blame but if the poster on the maxkeiser blog is right, it's looking a lot like CITI is the guilty party.

[casascius]

We use Chase... I've had Chase lock us out for the stupidest reasons.

...

Their answer: "sorry... try us again in 24 hours."  And that's that.

Um, so the obvious question here is, why are you still using Chase?

Chase has some pretty awesome features we really appreciate.  Our solution to Chase's knee jerk security is just to put our eggs in more than one basket.  Example, we don't run our payroll out of Chase.  We use a good local credit union for lots of that stuff (which also has free instantaneous local transfers to other credit union members).  We get the best of both worlds.

For example, I wired money to MtGox yesterday from Chase, which arrives at blinding speeds.  I clicked "send" at 2:31 pm, to wire to JAPAN, and got an e-mail from MtGox, "Funds have been received" at 6:50pm.  That was 4 hours and 20 minutes from the time I decided "I'd like some MTGUSD" until the time I had it ready to burn!  I threw another $50k into the pile, waiting off the orderbook just in case we get some price drops (and maybe that will never happen... in which case I'll probably use that 50k to offset trades anytime I sell BTC in person, so they aren't actually buying my BTC).  That fast transfer would have never happened from my credit union, who doesn't offer business services like that, I'd have had to call in and they'd have plugged through it manually.

[tvbcof]

Sort of related advice:
Whenever funding your tradehill account with paxum, either use bitinstant or go to mtgox instead.

I made the mistake of trusting tradehills promise of "up to 24 hours". It took them almost 2 days to actually enable the funds into my account. While waiting the price rose more than $1.

I've had beefs with Tradehill not living up to their published timings.  OTOH, they have vastly exceed them at other times.  (Unfortunately for me, this was more common on incoming wires two quarters ago when I was trying, unsuccessfully, to catch the falling knife.)

When asked the tradehill support about the delay they replied:

I totally understand your concern and frustration with us. However, at this moment, we are processing these transactions manually and do not always have somebody available to do this.

Apparently a whole workday long no one was available to add funds, I guess I have consider myself lucky that someone did it on the second work day. If someone runs an exchange like a sporadic hobby, please be so honest and state this clearly on your website.

At the same time I transferred some funds to mtgox also using paxum. It took them about less than a minute to have the available in my account.
So my personal advice: use bitinstant or mtgox

So one can either have trouble getting USD into the exchange, or getting USD out of the exchange.  Nice to have choices I suppose.  Unfortunately both eventualities can be costly.

[Steve]

For example, I wired money to MtGox yesterday from Chase, which arrives at blinding speeds.  I clicked "send" at 2:31 pm, to wire to JAPAN, and got an e-mail from MtGox, "Funds have been received" at 6:50pm.  That was 4 hours and 20 minutes from the time I decided "I'd like some MTGUSD" until the time I had it ready to burn!

I find it amazing that this is considered "blinding speed."

It only takes light a little over 8 minutes to reach the Earth from the Sun…it's amazing it takes banks hours to transfer a little bit of data around the Earth.

[Serge]

not so long ago wires used to take 3-5 business days, it is indeed amazing that now most wires get through within 24hr. period

[Jered Kenna (TradeHill)]

not so long ago wires used to take 3-5 business days, it is indeed amazing that now most wires get through within 24hr. period

When I lived in Chile you could send money from one bank account to another for free instantly online.
The US has the worst system that I'm aware of.

There isn't much of a reason for it  to take so long or be so easy to screw up.

Jered

[casascius]

I find it amazing that this is considered "blinding speed."

Certainly blinding compared to using Dwolla.  I want to make sure it's clearly known that wires to exchanges often mean same day trading.  Wires are attractive to people doing large amounts because there's fewer people they need to trust.

[Jered Kenna (TradeHill)]

I find it amazing that this is considered "blinding speed."

Certainly blinding compared to using Dwolla.  I want to make sure it's clearly known that wires to exchanges often mean same day trading.  Wires are attractive to people doing large amounts because there's fewer people they need to trust.

Banks absolutely hate wires though because they're essentially the only non reversible form of payment they have.

Jered

[PrintCoins]

I think the banks are the biggest danger to Bitcoin in the near future. If they all started to decide that they don't want anything to do with bitcoins, the exchanges would be totally frozen out.

[tvbcof]

I think the banks are the biggest danger to Bitcoin in the near future. If they all started to decide that they don't want anything to do with bitcoins, the exchanges would be totally frozen out.

It's hard for me to believe that all financial institutions would abandon service of Bitcoin related enterprises absent some legislative action (whereupon I have no doubt that they would do so in a heartbeat.)  It's a really interesting question in my mind about what would happen with the value of BTC in that scenario.  I could see it going several different ways.  Among them:

If demand is there it could get fairly pent up and explosive.  After all, banks (mostly) don't want anything to do with drugs which has contributed to them absurdly valuable.  Even though drugs are a physical commodity and thus cumbersome to supply, they are still plenty available and the demand ensures a thriving market.

On the other hand, I sense that a good bit of the demand is by day-trader types who have no real interest in holding BTC and see no value in doing so other than to flip them.  That demand would evaporate without convenient exchanges which could depress the value of BTC considerable.

[Jered Kenna (TradeHill)]

I think the banks are the biggest danger to Bitcoin in the near future. If they all started to decide that they don't want anything to do with bitcoins, the exchanges would be totally frozen out.

It's hard for me to believe that all financial institutions would abandon service of Bitcoin related enterprises absent some legislative action (whereupon I have no doubt that they would do so in a heartbeat.) 

I think it's important to realize that if the current total value of BTC in circulation is 30-40m that's still nothing for a bank.
It's all about risk and if they deem the risk too high they will refuse the account or shut it down.
It's not going to be that long though before some type of precedence is set.

Jered

[kjj]

Banks existed long before fiat currency and fractional reserve.  They will survive their downfall too.

They won't be happy with it, but when the scenario starts looking like "change or die", I fully expect many of them to change.  And I don't think they can prevent the rise of bitcoin, only delay it.

[tvbcof]

I think the banks are the biggest danger to Bitcoin in the near future. If they all started to decide that they don't want anything to do with bitcoins, the exchanges would be totally frozen out.

It's hard for me to believe that all financial institutions would abandon service of Bitcoin related enterprises absent some legislative action (whereupon I have no doubt that they would do so in a heartbeat.) 

I think it's important to realize that if the current total value of BTC in circulation is 30-40m that's still nothing for a bank.
It's all about risk and if they deem the risk too high they will refuse the account or shut it down.
It's not going to be that long though before some type of precedence is set.

The key element of my statement was 'all'.  I thought about trying to elaborate on that but decided not to.

The reason that this is key is that if a handful of 'rouge' institutions decided not to play ball, it would be enough to keep the exchanges happily chugging along (with some requisite adjustments to their pricing models) and thus allow the Bitcoin show to continue in much the same form as it does now.

Not only that, but the (current) $30-40m would suddenly become a significant factor for said 'rouge' institutions and thus a much more incentive to continue on.  That is why I don't see it absent state level legislative actions (state=nation.)  Half-hearted legislative attempts would be worse than nothing as they would create an engine for evolution of 'rouge' organisations, many of the operating in other states.  My bet is that this is part of the reason we in the Bitcoin community have been blessed with apparent ambivalence after Schummer spent a few minutes thinking about things (or more likely, some of his minders whacked him with a clue stick.)

[Mobius]

http://tradehillblog.com/2012/01/04/announcement-us-wire-deposits-and-withdrawals-are-temporarily-suspended/

Dear Clients,

We’ve had an issue with our Citibank account and we’ll not be accepting
wire or ACH deposits or executing check, wire or ACH withdrawals for a
short period of time. All the funds are accounted for and we’ll re-commence
operations by Monday or Tuesday next week.

We’ve had an issue or two in the past with banking so we understand the
tension this causes for customers and us. However, we’ve always sorted out
it. There hasn’t been one incident where transactions weren’t executed
properly and accurately once the issue was solved.

If you have any questions, don’t hesitate to send an email to
info@tradehill.com.

Thank you very much!

Regards,
The TradeHill Team

I sent an email message inquiring about being able to withdraw funds via check (USD) since I was not notified of a problem in getting my money sent to me nor was there a visible notice when I was logging in.

It would be good business practice to notify your account holders via e-mail immediately when this occurs and in the sign-in banner page or perhaps the DASHBOARD where account holders are able to see their status, instead of inside the normally small obscure blog link in the bottom corner.

Additionally, what start date does this effect transactions? I placed a withdrawal request on 1-1-2012, I have not seen the status updated nor have I received any notification from you, and if the check was processed will it be returned by the bank? Will they not honor your issued check.

One of the important features of your service is the ability to be issued a check for payment.

Will you be re-reimbursing the mandatory fees imposed by your alternative payment methods if used during this period of your inability to send people their money?

Your communication procedures to the account holders is this matter are sub-standard at best.

The minimum acceptable notification should be ON THE MAIN LOG IN PAGE, followed by an e-mail notification sent to all the account holders.

Posting a notice here in the forum is a poor practice, as not everyone uses the forums, nor do they log in everyday.

Please let us Account Holders know what remediation will be done to address these deficiencies,  HERE in the forum, since this is where you apparently wish to conduct your affairs.

My email was sent from r.grey1@gmx.com. Check it, you will see the notification!

[shakaru]

 
Is this also affecting Paxum USD withdraws as the usual processing time has passed and nothing as of yet by a good 9 hours. Sent in a ticket and such too.

[Mobius]

I guess their response is "In Process", nice way of doing business.

[PrintCoins]

I think the banks are the biggest danger to Bitcoin in the near future. If they all started to decide that they don't want anything to do with bitcoins, the exchanges would be totally frozen out.

It's hard for me to believe that all financial institutions would abandon service of Bitcoin related enterprises absent some legislative action (whereupon I have no doubt that they would do so in a heartbeat.)  It's a really interesting question in my mind about what would happen with the value of BTC in that scenario.  I could see it going several different ways.  Among them:

If demand is there it could get fairly pent up and explosive.  After all, banks (mostly) don't want anything to do with drugs which has contributed to them absurdly valuable.  Even though drugs are a physical commodity and thus cumbersome to supply, they are still plenty available and the demand ensures a thriving market.

On the other hand, I sense that a good bit of the demand is by day-trader types who have no real interest in holding BTC and see no value in doing so other than to flip them.  That demand would evaporate without convenient exchanges which could depress the value of BTC considerable.

Tonight on the news "Underground currency bitcoin used for Drugs &... [name some other hot button issues]. Citi and Chase identified as facilitating ... bla bla bla"

Exchanges shut out quickly from all major banking outlets. No law needed. Just bad press. Find a rouge bank that will be willing to work with the exchange, and that bank will have some serious issues getting wire transfers from established banks.

Much of the value of bitcoin would vanish the day of, and traders scramble to get their money out of the exchanges (converting btc to usd and wiring money). New modes of exchange would need to be found (otc and in person). In essence, bitcoin would lose the big time speculators, and exchanges would be reduced to mini transactions, or some other less bank oriented system.

The irony is that if the press was really out there and everyone suddenly had knowledge of bitcoin, more people would want it.

But it doesn't need to go to frontline news to have banks shut exchanges down. If they get a whiff of bad press, it would happen.

I wonder what happened to the value of gold when it was deemed illegal to own. I think that might be a good historical lesson to look at in trying to predict the future of bitcoin (though gold and bitcoin are quite different).

[aq]

I guess their response is "In Process", nice way of doing business.

The real irony is that Jared (tradehill) complains that banks are slow, and then when one uses an instant method like Paxum, the very same tradehill guys happily add a few days before actually letting you use the funds that they them self got within a single second...

[Jered Kenna (TradeHill)]

I guess their response is "In Process", nice way of doing business.

The real irony is that Jared (tradehill) complains that banks are slow, and then when one uses an instant method like Paxum, the very same tradehill guys happily add a few days before actually letting you use the funds that they them self got within a single second...

The big reason for Paxum delays when they happen is the 3-5 day waiting period after we send them a wire to add more funds to the Paxum account. Mt Gox encounters the same problem and neither of us intentionally sit on Paxum deposits / withdrawals but run in to this when we have much higher or lower volume than expected.

Thanks for the feedback, I appreciate it.

Jered

Edit: we should have changed the banner and sent an email, you were spot on.

[aq]

I guess their response is "In Process", nice way of doing business.

The real irony is that Jared (tradehill) complains that banks are slow, and then when one uses an instant method like Paxum, the very same tradehill guys happily add a few days before actually letting you use the funds that they them self got within a single second...

The big reason for Paxum delays when they happen is the 3-5 day waiting period after we send them a wire to add more funds to the Paxum account. Mt Gox encounters the same problem and neither of us intentionally sit on Paxum deposits / withdrawals but run in to this when we have much higher or lower volume than expected.

Thanks for the feedback, I appreciate it.

Jered

Edit: we should have changed the banner and sent an email, you were spot on.

Jered: I was sending some funds TO tradehill - so there was no waiting period involved. It was just that no one at tradehill cared to actually click a button, or whatever manual system you guys have to make funds available after you got the money. So I waited almost 2 workdays. I did the same on MtGox and it took them 1 minute.
There is so much done purely manual at tradehill, that it sometimes amazes me the the actual exchange is automated...

[Jered Kenna (TradeHill)]

I guess their response is "In Process", nice way of doing business.

The real irony is that Jared (tradehill) complains that banks are slow, and then when one uses an instant method like Paxum, the very same tradehill guys happily add a few days before actually letting you use the funds that they them self got within a single second...

The big reason for Paxum delays when they happen is the 3-5 day waiting period after we send them a wire to add more funds to the Paxum account. Mt Gox encounters the same problem and neither of us intentionally sit on Paxum deposits / withdrawals but run in to this when we have much higher or lower volume than expected.

Thanks for the feedback, I appreciate it.

Jered

Edit: we should have changed the banner and sent an email, you were spot on.

Jered: I was sending some funds TO tradehill - so there was no waiting period involved. It was just that no one at tradehill cared to actually click a button, or whatever manual system you guys have to make funds available after you got the money. So I waited almost 2 workdays. I did the same on MtGox and it took them 1 minute.
There is so much done purely manual at tradehill, that it sometimes amazes me the the actual exchange is automated...

That was my fault thinking you were referring to Paxum going out.
Thanks for letting me know. I hadn't heard any other complaints about Paxum coming in. I'll speak with them.

Jered

[ssaCEO]

Jered, if we really wanted to move cash out quickly through Tradehill and would pay the premium for it, is there a reason it can't be wired from Chile to either a US or European bank account?

[Jered Kenna (TradeHill)]

Jered, if we really wanted to move cash out quickly through Tradehill and would pay the premium for it, is there a reason it can't be wired from Chile to either a US or European bank account?

Unless you're trading Chilean Pesos the funds are either in the US, Europe or India depending on the currency.
The problem isn't foreign banks, it's US banks.

Jered

[Trader Steve]

I think the banks are the biggest danger to Bitcoin in the near future. If they all started to decide that they don't want anything to do with bitcoins, the exchanges would be totally frozen out.

It's hard for me to believe that all financial institutions would abandon service of Bitcoin related enterprises absent some legislative action (whereupon I have no doubt that they would do so in a heartbeat.)  It's a really interesting question in my mind about what would happen with the value of BTC in that scenario.  I could see it going several different ways.  Among them:

If demand is there it could get fairly pent up and explosive.  After all, banks (mostly) don't want anything to do with drugs which has contributed to them absurdly valuable.  Even though drugs are a physical commodity and thus cumbersome to supply, they are still plenty available and the demand ensures a thriving market.

On the other hand, I sense that a good bit of the demand is by day-trader types who have no real interest in holding BTC and see no value in doing so other than to flip them.  That demand would evaporate without convenient exchanges which could depress the value of BTC considerable.

Tonight on the news "Underground currency bitcoin used for Drugs &... [name some other hot button issues]. Citi and Chase identified as facilitating ... bla bla bla"

Exchanges shut out quickly from all major banking outlets. No law needed. Just bad press. Find a rouge bank that will be willing to work with the exchange, and that bank will have some serious issues getting wire transfers from established banks.

Much of the value of bitcoin would vanish the day of, and traders scramble to get their money out of the exchanges (converting btc to usd and wiring money). New modes of exchange would need to be found (otc and in person). In essence, bitcoin would lose the big time speculators, and exchanges would be reduced to mini transactions, or some other less bank oriented system.

The irony is that if the press was really out there and everyone suddenly had knowledge of bitcoin, more people would want it.

But it doesn't need to go to frontline news to have banks shut exchanges down. If they get a whiff of bad press, it would happen.

I wonder what happened to the value of gold when it was deemed illegal to own. I think that might be a good historical lesson to look at in trying to predict the future of bitcoin (though gold and bitcoin are quite different).

Yes, this is the key issue that I've often thought about myself. I think a shut-out by the banks would relegate bitcoin back to a small, "community barter currency" - smaller than it already is. I think only a severe and totalitarian clamp down on voluntary exchange (much more than we have now) could reverse the resulting slowdown and drive faster bitcoin adoption. At what exact point I don't know. The current restrictions on cash transactions that are now being implemented in some parts of Europe may give us some clues. See The Coming Attack On Bitcoin And How To Survive It http://tinyurl.com/3b6d823

[srf21c]

It seems to me that many of these arguments assume that banks won't be failing themselves and struggling to retain customer confidence.

Who is to say the reverse won't happen, a flight from fiat currency banks into the relative safety and stability of the bitcoin network?

[srf21c]

There seems to be an unspoken assumption on this thread that banks won't be failing left and right themselves and therefore struggling to retain customer confidence.

Who is to say the reverse won't happen.  A collapse in the fiat currency banking system that precipitates a flight of wealth into the relative safety and stability of the bitcoin network?

[Trader Steve]

There seems to be an unspoken assumption on this thread that banks won't be failing left and right themselves and therefore struggling to retain customer confidence.

Who is to say the reverse won't happen.  A collapse in the fiat currency banking system that precipitates a flight of wealth into the relative safety and stability of the bitcoin network?

Yes, good point.

[PrintCoins]

There seems to be an unspoken assumption on this thread that banks won't be failing left and right themselves and therefore struggling to retain customer confidence.

Who is to say the reverse won't happen.  A collapse in the fiat currency banking system that precipitates a flight of wealth into the relative safety and stability of the bitcoin network?

That is a possibility as well. It isn't really related to banks shutting down bitcoin transfers though. This is just a fun upside possibility.

Bitcoin, gold, property, food, oil will all shoot up when wealth flees fiat. That is the way it goes.

[Mobius]

From Jan 4, 2012

Dear Clients,

We’ve had an issue with our Citibank account and we’ll not be accepting wire or ACH deposits or executing check, wire or ACH withdrawals for a short period of time. All the funds are accounted for and we’ll re-commence operations by Monday or Tuesday next week.

We’ve had an issue or two in the past with banking so we understand the tension this causes for customers and us. However, we’ve always sorted out it. There hasn’t been one incident where transactions weren’t executed properly and accurately once the issue was solved.

If you have any questions, don’t hesitate to send an email to info@tradehill.com.

Thank you very much!

Regards,
The TradeHill Team

-------------------------------------------------

It's Wednesday Jan 11, 2012, -- Where are we with this situation?

You still have not posted any NOTIFICATION  on the log in page or the dashboard.

[digital]

I sent a support request in regards to this and this is what I received in return:

Hi,
First, thanks for using Tradehill and excuse the delay in responding; it’s not typical.
We’ve temporarily disabled domestic and international wire/checks. The reason can be seen on our blog post here: http://tradehillblog.com/
We anticipate having a new domestic and international check/wire solution by the end of the week.
Until then you can use BitInstant or Paxum.
Thanks again and happy bit-trading.
Regards,
Tradehill

I was really looking forward to being able to access my funds by today, but now they say by the end of the week...

edit:

The blog entry they refer to is identical to the op

[Mobius]

I sent a support request in regards to this and this is what I received in return:

Hi,
First, thanks for using Tradehill and excuse the delay in responding; it’s not typical.
We’ve temporarily disabled domestic and international wire/checks. The reason can be seen on our blog post here: http://tradehillblog.com/
We anticipate having a new domestic and international check/wire solution by the end of the week.
Until then you can use BitInstant or Paxum.
Thanks again and happy bit-trading.
Regards,
Tradehill

I was really looking forward to being able to access my funds by today, but now they say by the end of the week...

edit:

The blog entry they refer to is identical to the op

They should cover the extra cost to be able to get our money out.

[cypherdoc]

There seems to be an unspoken assumption on this thread that banks won't be failing left and right themselves and therefore struggling to retain customer confidence.

Who is to say the reverse won't happen.  A collapse in the fiat currency banking system that precipitates a flight of wealth into the relative safety and stability of the bitcoin network?

Yes, good point.

good to see u back, Steve!

[Mobius]

There seems to be an unspoken assumption on this thread that banks won't be failing left and right themselves and therefore struggling to retain customer confidence.

Who is to say the reverse won't happen.  A collapse in the fiat currency banking system that precipitates a flight of wealth into the relative safety and stability of the bitcoin network?

The loss of trust in the bitcoin network is again perpetuated by the way this exchange has handled this situation. Their continuing lack of a substantial response in this message thread (that they started), indicates a blatant disregard to inform their account holders with respect to an updated status.. They have now changed their target date from Yesterday to hopefully by the end of the week.

They have not yet sent out an e-mail to all of the account holders nor have they placed a banner or notification on the account holder's dashboard page or the withdrawal page. It is either complete contempt or an utter disregard of the value they attribute toward the individual account holders.

[kjj]

There seems to be an unspoken assumption on this thread that banks won't be failing left and right themselves and therefore struggling to retain customer confidence.

Who is to say the reverse won't happen.  A collapse in the fiat currency banking system that precipitates a flight of wealth into the relative safety and stability of the bitcoin network?

The loss of trust in the bitcoin network is again perpetuated by the way this exchange has handled this situation. Their continuing lack of a substantial response in this message thread (that they started), indicates a blatant disregard to inform their account holders with respect to an updated status.. They have now changed their target date from Yesterday to hopefully by the end of the week.

They have not yet sent out an e-mail to all of the account holders nor have they placed a banner or notification on the account holder's dashboard page or the withdrawal page. It is either complete contempt or an utter disregard of the value they attribute toward the individual account holders.

U mad?

While I agree that they could be better at communication, your rant is way over the top; you just come across as nutty.  There has been no loss of trust in the bitcoin network, except possibly from you, and I think the network will survive if you leave in a huff.  I also very much doubt that they have contempt for any of their account holders.

I personally do have a little contempt for you, but that is mostly because I know what most of the words you used actually mean, and you apparently do not.

[digital]

Personally, I'm not so much mad as inconvenienced.  I need access to my cash, and really didn't want to have to open a Paxum or Okpay account to get at my $$.

Ultimately, I had to convert back to btc and remove btc in order to convert back to usd via another method.  And of course, they took their share of the transaction too.

Definitely doesn't make me want to keep any meaningful amount of usd in my Tradehill account...

[Trader Steve]

There seems to be an unspoken assumption on this thread that banks won't be failing left and right themselves and therefore struggling to retain customer confidence.

Who is to say the reverse won't happen.  A collapse in the fiat currency banking system that precipitates a flight of wealth into the relative safety and stability of the bitcoin network?

Yes, good point.

good to see u back, Steve!

Hello Cypherdoc!

[yochdog]

Tradehill, where are you?  I have had a Paxum withdrawal pending for 3 days, and it STILL shows as "in process".

What is going on?  No checks, no wires, and now no Paxum? 

Please update your customers on the situation.....it does not look good currently. 

[dovewing2000]

Please update us as to whether you are actually sending out checks ...

[niooron]

They also delayed a withdraw in CLP and haven't answered. I guess they all went on vacation.

[tvbcof]

The silence it becoming louder, and currently have more USD with Tradehill than I normally trust anyone with (waiting for the sub $2.00 price which has not yet come upon us.)

I wonder if no time was wasted in implementing some of the the more useful features of the NDAA?

[yochdog]

The silence it becoming louder, and currently have more USD with Tradehill than I normally trust anyone with (waiting for the sub $2.00 price which has not yet come upon us.)

I wonder if no time was wasted in implementing some of the the more useful features of the NDAA?

Now they are taking much longer than usual for even BTC withdrawal.  Have had one "in process" for over 6 hours now, and have never had one take more than 20 minutes before.

This is going South in a hurry. 

[tvbcof]

The silence it becoming louder, and currently have more USD with Tradehill than I normally trust anyone with (waiting for the sub $2.00 price which has not yet come upon us.)

I wonder if no time was wasted in implementing some of the the more useful features of the NDAA?

Now they are taking much longer than usual for even BTC withdrawal.  Have had one "in process" for over 6 hours now, and have never had one take more than 20 minutes before.

This is going South in a hurry. 

If I were running an exchange, a bulk of my BTC would be in pretty deep storage and challenging to get access to.  (In fact, that is the case even though I don't run an exchange come to think of it.)  So, I would somewhat expect a delay assuming that customers are scrambling to get out while they can.

I considered spending all my money at the current prices and pulling my BTC.  It makes little sense for people to sell Bitcoin until it is more possible to pull fiat out, so I would expect sellers to start to dry up like a shallow puddle on a frying pan.

In the end I decided to take a chance that Jered and co are on the level and will make things right once their banking issues are resolved, though I expect that it could possibly take a long time.  If they are prone to take the money and run, it's probably to late to get out anyway.

[-FaerO-]

Any idea on when our xfers are going to go through. I have someone waiting on a wire for over a grand & I myself am waiting on 2 xfers. 1 Wire to my bank & 1 to my paxum account. Email updates or something would be nice. This is peoples money you're dealing with. We need it to live. I know you guys are trying your best & you've always been helpful, but please make it more of a priority to keep us informed. Especially with the other BTC scandals with bitcoin7 & mybticoin.com. Keep up the good work, please try to get our money out to us ASAP.

-FaerO-

[tiptopgemdotcom]

I pulled out of Tradehell today and went to Crypto X Change based in Australia. 

[Sukrim]

5 USD or 5 AUD? (well, it's not that much of a difference anyways)

I actually find it a bit rude to advertise in a thread about a competitor in a clearly offtopic way.

[cypherdoc]

NEVER Any Frozen bank account issues!


The Crypto X Change Team

why exactly should we believe this claim?  what procedures do you have in place to prevent this?

[-FaerO-]

This is getting ridiculous. Im goin out of town for a couple months come Tuesday & Ive been waiting on these xfers to go through since Dec. 27th 2011... Either complete the damn transfers manually or cancel all of them so I can send my money through a more reliable & consistent exchange.... If anything make an appearance here & let us know what's going on... WTF is your deal. This is not a game....

[the joint]

Withdrew all my BTC from TradeHill successfully today.

[-FaerO-]

Withdrew all my BTC from TradeHill successfully today.

Lucky you. I have over a grand locked up "In Process" supposedly. Push the damn button to cancel my transactions so I can pull all my shit out & xfer over to cryptoxchange. This is fucking ridiculous. All you need to do is cancel my damn xfers. Ive sent several emails requesting this as well....

[juancarlosm1983]

http://tradehillblog.com/2012/01/04/announcement-us-wire-deposits-and-withdrawals-are-temporarily-suspended/

Dear Clients,
....

So Jered, I've requested a withdraw via paxum wallet on Jan-12. You guys restared Withdrawals Operations on Jan 17th, and told us: 'Paxum has a 3 to 5 day delay on receiving our wires', so that means I'll see my money in my Paxum tomorrow?


EDIT: I'VE RECEIVED 5 MINUTES AGO A DEPOSIT IN MY PAXUM WALLET.

THANKS!

[micc]

hope you guys resolve the issue with your bank, the check option is the best way for me to withdraw usd

[QuantumFoam]

Indeed, I cannot find a better alternative than the check option that used to be available. Every other option I have looked into requires you jump through a bunch of hoops (with each hoop dinging you with fees) to get your money. I hope the check option gets added back soon.

[the joint]

Indeed, I cannot find a better alternative than the check option that used to be available. Every other option I have looked into requires you jump through a bunch of hoops (with each hoop dinging you with fees) to get your money. I hope the check option gets added back soon.

+1

[-FaerO-]

Finaally got my wires through. Thank you, but please make it a practice to keep your clients informed of the situation... Good day

-MR.CranE-

[The-Real-Link]

Saw a check pending from the beginning of January finally show a status of "completed" today.  While requesting pay by check is still not possible under Tradehill, I'm sure they're working on probably the thousands of backlog requests (maybe manually with their new bank).  I'm sure it'll return in time (or so I hope) but 3 weeks of downtime isn't good.

[QuantumFoam]

I see they have reinstated the withdrawal by check option, but...

It now has a fee of $5

[the joint]

I see they have reinstated the withdrawal by check option, but...

It now has a fee of $5

$5 Fee is still pretty nice.  If there are delays from now on you could try to insist upon a refund of the $5 fee.  I think that would be warranted.

[Dinkytoyz]

Thanks for the wire Jered! If you would have updated your blog earlier you would have kept me as a customer, now I just hope TH will go to hell.

[the joint]

Thanks for the wire Jered! If you would have updated your blog earlier you would have kept me as a customer, now I just hope TH will go to hell.

The existence of TradeHill is very good for the market right now in my opinion.

[Dinkytoyz]

Thanks for the wire Jered! If you would have updated your blog earlier you would have kept me as a customer, now I just hope TH will go to hell.

The existence of TradeHill is very good for the market right now in my opinion.

It has been very shit for me and people like me. Dont forget we, the people, make the market. I have totally lost faith in bitcoins because of Jered his actions. He has fucked my life over in such a way that you cannot imagine. He can go fuck himself. I hate him. He has left me in uncertainty of my own future. I will never forget this last month not knowing if he ran with my cash or not and not knowing if I would be able to provide for my wife and little daughter. I had to borrow money left an right to keep us alive while he was writing quirky messages on his twitter account and here on the board not saying anything about the situation and what was going on. It was really a slap in the face for me.

tl;dr Fuck Tradehill/Jered and fuck Bitcoins.

[tvbcof]

Thanks for the wire Jered! If you would have updated your blog earlier you would have kept me as a customer, now I just hope TH will go to hell.

The existence of TradeHill is very good for the market right now in my opinion.

It has been very shit for me and people like me. Dont forget we, the people, make the market. I have totally lost faith in bitcoins because of Jered his actions. He has fucked my life over in such a way that you cannot imagine. He can go fuck himself. I hate him. He has left me in uncertainty of my own future. I will never forget this last month not knowing if he ran with my cash or not and not knowing if I would be able to provide for my wife and little daughter. I had to borrow money left an right to keep us alive while he was writing quirky messages on his twitter account and here on the board not saying anything about the situation and what was going on. It was really a slap in the face for me.

tl;dr Fuck Tradehill/Jered and fuck Bitcoins.

This is exactly why I feel, and continue to feel, that Bitcoin is suitable only for a minority of people.  Even individuals in the core development team warn that Bitcoin is a new and risky thing which people should not put much money into.

Not only is Bitcoin itself risky, but the transfer of USD (or equiv) into and out of the Bitcoin economy is both theorized and observed to be highly problematic.

While I am glad that you seem to have gotten your money out, and I hope that you patch up your family matters, I do find it reprehensible that you would have chosen to risk so much.  I hope that others will learn from your story.

[the joint]

Thanks for the wire Jered! If you would have updated your blog earlier you would have kept me as a customer, now I just hope TH will go to hell.

The existence of TradeHill is very good for the market right now in my opinion.

It has been very shit for me and people like me. Dont forget we, the people, make the market. I have totally lost faith in bitcoins because of Jered his actions. He has fucked my life over in such a way that you cannot imagine. He can go fuck himself. I hate him. He has left me in uncertainty of my own future. I will never forget this last month not knowing if he ran with my cash or not and not knowing if I would be able to provide for my wife and little daughter. I had to borrow money left an right to keep us alive while he was writing quirky messages on his twitter account and here on the board not saying anything about the situation and what was going on. It was really a slap in the face for me.

tl;dr Fuck Tradehill/Jered and fuck Bitcoins.

Let me break down what you said:

"It has been very shit for me and people like me."  

So, anyone who had trouble with money in this situation is like you, and anybody that didn't have trouble isn't?  That's quite a dichotomy you've set up.

"Don't forget we, the people, make the market."  

Yes, I am one of those people too.  

" I have totally lost faith in Bitcoin because of Jered and his actions.  He has fucked over my LIFE in such a way that you cannot imagine."

Bitcoin is a currency, Jered is an individual acting on his own accord.  Bitcoins don't act.  People use them.  While I do agree Jered blew the communication aspect, you got your money, right?  Were you responsible with your money?  There are so many ways to interpret your leap of reductionism.  BUT, I am very sorry to hear that this has created problems for you.  I won't minimize those problems, but I do hope that you recognize your own influence on the situation.

"He can go fuck himself...it was really a slap in the face for me."

How do you know Jered wasn't working every second to try to remedy the situation?  Jered also has a responsibility to Jered, and if he doesn't take a little time for himself (referencing his time spent on Twitter, etc.), then how can he be in a calm-enough state of mind to deal with the situation rationally?

When the bank accounts closed, there were many others in the same boat as you (or at least a similar boat), including me.  The situation didn't revolve around you, although it can certainly feel that way when a lot of money is on the line.  Multiple people were involved in the same situation, but every person reacted differently to the situation.  That's the power of interpretation, and the power is yours.

I truly am sorry that you've been going though a hard time.  But really...borrowing money so that you, your wife, and your daughter can LIVE?  You invested the money that you need for survival in Bitcoin?  What were you thinking?

[rjk]

...snip...

You sir are a master of the art of social engineering. Are you a psychologist?

[the joint]

...snip...

You sir are a master of the art of social engineering. Are you a psychologist?

Bachelors in psych, half a semester away from my MSW in the mental health concentration.

I'm a student counselor in the adult psychiatric unit of a local hospital.

[Dinkytoyz]

Let me break down what you said:

"It has been very shit for me and people like me."  

So, anyone who had trouble with money in this situation is like you, and anybody that didn't have trouble isn't?  That's quite a dichotomy you've set up.

Youre misunderstanding, I was talking about anyone in a situation like me. Grantad that might have not been alot of people but it might have been. We dont have statistics but for sure we can say there was one person. Me.

"Don't forget we, the people, make the market."  

Yes, I am one of those people too.

Ok.

" I have totally lost faith in Bitcoin because of Jered and his actions.  He has fucked over my LIFE in such a way that you cannot imagine."

Bitcoin is a currency, Jered is an individual acting on his own accord.  Bitcoins don't act.  People use them.  While I do agree Jered blew the communication aspect, you got your money, right?  Were you responsible with your money?  There are so many ways to interpret your leap of reductionism.  BUT, I am very sorry to hear that this has created problems for you.  I won't minimize those problems, but I do hope that you recognize your own influence on the situation.

Wether im responsible with money or not is not for you to decide. You dont know my situation, only I do so please dont say anything you dont know shit about.

"He can go fuck himself...it was really a slap in the face for me."

How do you know Jered wasn't working every second to try to remedy the situation?  Jered also has a responsibility to Jered, and if he doesn't take a little time for himself (referencing his time spent on Twitter, etc.), then how can he be in a calm-enough state of mind to deal with the situation rationally?

If he took the time to send out some info (less characters then his Twitter message even) I would have known enough and wouldnt have to loose sleep over this. yet he choose to be selfish and for that I say; Fuck you Jered, go fuck yourself.

When the bank accounts closed, there were many others in the same boat as you (or at least a similar boat), including me.  The situation didn't revolve around you, although it can certainly feel that way when a lot of money is on the line.  Multiple people were involved in the same situation, but every person reacted differently to the situation.  That's the power of interpretation, and the power is yours.

I truly am sorry that you've been going though a hard time.  But really...borrowing money so that you, your wife, and your daughter can LIVE?  You invested the money that you need for survival in Bitcoin?  What were you thinking?

Im running my business trough bitcoin and unfortunatly that requires me to still convert my btc to fiat to pay electricity bills etcetera. Fuck you to thejoint, irl id bitchslap you for being such a prejudiced dumb fuck.

[Blizz]

There are no delays when buying BTC from www.Blizzcoin.com
Automated exchange & instant delivery. Average total transaction time is under 3 minutes.
No registration required.

All you need is a US bank account.

www.Blizzcoin.com

Best regards!
Blizz

[Iyeman]

Just use mtgox, it is so much better than tradehill.

[antares]

Just use mtgox, it is so much better than tradehill.

until you face problems...

like me back in november, when they decided to freeze my account for no reason after I deposited 200 BTC into it. they held on to my money until the second week of january...
sooo much better than tradehill, really!

Especially with mtgox support / staff times.
Verification request? 24h max they say, for a single request they usually take 2 weeks
Withdrawal? double the crazy times they write on their site
contact support? smell ya next year(submitted some ticked mid-december got my anser january third)

mtgox response times are the main reason I went to tradehill, and even in times of crisis they are much faster than gox!

[kneim]

Hello Jered, please take a look into my money deposit of 586 Euro at 3. of January from my Paxum wallet (ID 37652).

Anyhow I'm satisfied with TradeHill. Had a lot of trouble at very different stages while trading with BTC (Bitcoin7, moneybookers, OkPay, and others), so it does not take me out of piece any more. Security comes first, take your time. More communication would be nice, of course.

And I'm not dependent on this money now and here, like others. It's their fault, not your's.

And yes, I was not possible to invest it before the intermediate crash, so you saved my money. Thank you.

I will stay with you.

[asdf2121]

other delay???


fuck....



withdraw.. more than 3 days ago.. and nothing.. . send email...

nothing...

[asdf2121]

th dead??


... bad service....

[QuantumFoam]

I take it people are still having problems getting their money? I'd email them but they've made it clear they ignore customer emails and tickets, all my emails and tickets I opened last month were never replied to even once. Looks like I need to get my money out of this place and go elsewhere, that is if they even send me my money at this point.

[kneim]

No money yet, no answer to my numerous tickets. They could loose their reputation, and perhaps their customers. Please answer, Jered.

[QuantumFoam]

I withdrew my entire USD balance yesterday. It says it completed today. I will see if I actually get the check by the end of the week or not.

[liuk03]

Hi,
do someone know any news about TradeHill's SEPA account?I'm trying to contact TradeHill's admin but i don't receive replay.
Thank you for your attention to this matter.

[playitoff2577]

same problem as everyone else... first had btc froze in the "in process" status, after about a week or so (i lost count) of emailing, no responses but it finally completed.. then requested a withdraw through cheque, its been 7 days now and the status is still "in process"

[kneim]

Hello Jered, I created another ticket, please deposit my 586 Euro into my account. I'm waiting on it since 3. of January.

[The-Real-Link]

Jered, thank you for everything you have done.  It is unfortunate to say the least that this has happened.  Didn't see this in trading as I made a seperate thread for it, whoops.

[Jered Kenna (TradeHill)]

I should have hopped on this thread a while ago, my apologies for that.
If you haven't seen the blog post on tradehillblog.com we've shut down the exchange.
We have already sent out all the back checks and are continuing to return the remaining funds.
If you requested a check a while ago and it still hasn't arrived send an email to info@tradehill.com
We have a massive backlog stemming from both of our primary bank accounts being shut down simultaneously but are working through it.

Thank you for all the support.

Jered

[kneim]

I should have hopped on this thread a while ago, my apologies for that.
If you haven't seen the blog post on tradehillblog.com we've shut down the exchange.
We have already sent out all the back checks and are continuing to return the remaining funds.
If you requested a check a while ago and it still hasn't arrived send an email to info@tradehill.com
We have a massive backlog stemming from both of our primary bank accounts being shut down simultaneously but are working through it.

Thank you for all the support.

Jered

Thank you for the information, I will (and can) wait on it. If the money appears in my account, I will be one of the first who will try bitcoin.com.

[kneim]

The missing money deposit from 3. of January cannot be seen in "Your Pending Deposits & Withdrawals" now. Hope this is not a bad sign. Patiently waiting on the money, have written a last ticket with the possible ways to withdraw it.

[haploid23]

I still have money in my tradehill account. If i request for a check, will it come? How else can I get the rest of my money out? OKPAY has a charge of 1% with a minimum of $15. Does that mean they will charge me a minimum of $15, or is the minimum to withdraw is $15?