A sneak peak at the future of Bitcoin Cold Storage

[southerngentuk]

I would love this as a backup of my private keys

Used In conjunction with something like trezor, you should make two versions 

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[crazy_rabbit]

I would love this as a backup of my private keys

Used In conjunction with something like trezor, you should make two versions  

A Trezor with a NFC reader would be very exciting indeed.

EDIT: there is no reason why you couldn't/shouldn't store your Trezor seed inside this device.

[dogechode]

For people who aren't familiar with cold storage, can we get a brief explanation of what purpose this device serves?

[yayayo]

Whether there's bitcoin in them or not, everybody is going to want one of these!

Yes! My first thought was: "Holy cow! Antimatter now available for recreational use."

Amazing! Following this.


ya.ya.yo!

[sosulon]

Really hope it will be commercialized one day . But need to wait for the price to drop tho.

Like smartphones when it first came out

[dogechode]

Has an estimated price been established yet? Someone asked if 100-200 was in the ballpark but I don't think that was responded to.

[crazy_rabbit]

Just to quickly answer a few questions:

It is intended as a long term bitcoin storage solution. It uses NFC technology to hold your data: wireless and no batteries. It is intended to be used in multiples so that a person uses it with multi-sign or duplication to avoid the possibility of electronics failure. It should be completely sealed, and made from glass. Thus waterproof, relatively heat proof, submersible, etc... The glass is fairly durable, but not so durable that you can't break it. The idea is that once your data is written to the NFC chip inside, you lock it permanently, and then to redeem the data inside you must break the device open to obtain the main password to decrypting the device NFC chips which is kept on the inside.

There is still a bit of design testing to do with the device, although this 3rd generation prototype is functional, there are still manufacturing things that need to be solved. So it's back to the foundry! I have one of the most talented product designers for glass in the Czech Republic as the designer, so it's really high end. As for price, not sure yet, but definitely the 100-200 range for a set (min 3) of them is likely, but there is still a bit of work to be done as it's not so simple as I originally thought so I would rather not quote prices.

I am unlikely to mass produce them for a specific reason: These devices are hand made, and a specific part of the process ensures that each individual device is unique and counterfeit proof. It would be next to impossible to make a duplicate device. This is important as it ensures your device is truly yours, meaning that if left alone for 5 years and you come back to find it intact, you can be sure no one has had access to your bitcoin in the meantime. I discuss below why this is valuable. Of course, when it's ready I will make a nice website with product info, etc....

The device is intended to be a bit upmarket and luxury- the first truly luxury bitcoin device. It's beautiful. And by doing in small batches it's also possible to do a fair amount of personalisation.

Packaging will also be important, as they should be shipped shielded so as to be impossible to read by NFC tech in transit, as well as in storage. A proper container would also make it EMP proof by creating a good faraday cage around it. Beyond just solid function, it should also be beautiful.

So, still a number of plans to make before I can really lock down prices or full functionality, but I wanted to start seeing what people were thinking.

[krach]

This is very cool, I just dont see how we can be 100% sure that the chips or whatever electronics will still work in 5 years ect, cds, usb sticks, memory cards, are not exactly "long term" in lifetime, why should this last longer?

[crazy_rabbit]

This is very cool, I just dont see how we can be 100% sure that the chips or whatever electronics will still work in 5 years ect, cds, usb sticks, memory cards, are not exactly "long term" in lifetime, why should this last longer?

Well it 'should' last longer, but it's true- any sort of device like this has it's own limits. NFC is pretty durable however, especially if you don't use it very often. If in doubt, sign an 'escape' transaction prior to committing your BTC to the devices, and that should cover you. That said though- i suspect there will have been some big changes in the next 10 years for bitcoin that will probably require some sort of update anyway though.

[Abdussamad]

Looks like a dildo.

[freedomno1]

Looks like a dildo.

Only if it vibrates although duly noted since I did note the sheen it had
(But I guess that is one of the safest ways to hide it ...)

Anyways it should be very durable as crazy_rabbit said unless you use it that way then ...
On that topic is it water proof or water resistant ?

[Abdussamad]

Cold storage that can be accessed wirelessly sounds like a bit of a contradiction to me. That it's shaped like a dildo doesn't help.

[crazy_rabbit]

>>On that topic is it water proof or water resistant ?

Yes, it should be completely sealed in glass, thus waterproof. A few small challenges remain in doing this, but that is the plan.

>>Cold storage that can be accessed wirelessly sounds like a bit of a contradiction to me.

It's not really a contradiction. It's wireless only in the sense of there aren't any 'wires', but it can't communicate without a NFC reader directly near the chip reading it. Also all the data stored on the chip is intended to be encrypted, with the decryption information inside the device and *not* accessible wirelessly. So once the chip is encrypted and locked, there is no worries about 'wireless' theft. So no, it's not a contradiction.

>>That it's shaped like a dildo doesn't help.

The next version will be smaller and thus perhaps less reminiscent of your fears. That said, the shape is irrelevant to the function beyond the practical considerations of sealing a microchip in glass.

[Abdussamad]

>>On that topic is it water proof or water resistant ?

Yes, it should be completely sealed in glass, thus waterproof. A few small challenges remain in doing this, but that is the plan.

>>Cold storage that can be accessed wirelessly sounds like a bit of a contradiction to me.

It's not really a contradiction. It's wireless only in the sense of there aren't any 'wires', but it can't communicate without a NFC reader directly near the chip reading it. Also all the data stored on the chip is intended to be encrypted, with the decryption information inside the device and *not* accessible wirelessly. So once the chip is encrypted and locked, there is no worries about 'wireless' theft. So no, it's not a contradiction.

>>That it's shaped like a dildo doesn't help.

The next version will be smaller and thus perhaps less reminiscent of your fears. That said, the shape is irrelevant to the function beyond the practical considerations of sealing a microchip in glass.

Yeah that's another thing. Glass isn't exactly durable now is it? What happens if I drop it? Or it gets run over by a lorry? It needs to survive being run over by large moving objects before I consider it durable and long lasting.

[b!z]

Looks like a neat idea. Good luck CrazyRabbit.

[crazy_rabbit]

.......

Yeah that's another thing. Glass isn't exactly durable now is it? What happens if I drop it? Or it gets run over by a lorry? It needs to survive being run over by large moving objects before I consider it durable and long lasting.

If you look back to an earlier point in this thread I think you will understand why it's glass.

If you are expecting that maybe it might get run over by a lorry, then this product isn't for you. Yes you could drop it and it could break. The same can be said for your mobile phone. Don't drop it. The device isn't intended to be handled on a daily basis. You get it, set it, and forget about it: Preferably somewhere safe other than your pocket or on the road.

The reason it is glass is that it NEEDS to be breakable. It's a one time use only device. You break it open to get the decryption password inside. You can't put it back together in a perfect way so you know it's genuine and untouched. I couldn't find a way to do that with plastic or any other material that is anywhere near realistic to manufacture. Glass is one of those few special materials.

Actually yes- you can make a glass device that is nearly unbreakable, that would survive lorries, etc.. But then what would the point be? You need your decryption password inside and not even a sledgehammer will break it open? Glass is a good balance for durability. The device will be think enough to hopefully survive small drops, but not so thick as to be unbreakable.

I suspect this is something I'm going to have to clarify many times in the life of this product: It is not intended for everyday use. It is INTENDED to be broken. It ASSUMES you will take care of it and protect it. It is not a sock draw/pants pocket/toss around foot ball product. If you need something to sign keys: I would recomdend to buy a trezor. If you want to store you bitcoin seed for your trezor, but this product, but the seed in it, encrypt, put it in your bank vault, and sleep easy.

Please don't leave them around in the street for lorries to run over it. :-)

[WindMaster]

This is very cool, I just dont see how we can be 100% sure that the chips or whatever electronics will still work in 5 years ect, cds, usb sticks, memory cards, are not exactly "long term" in lifetime, why should this last longer?

Well it 'should' last longer, but it's true- any sort of device like this has it's own limits. NFC is pretty durable however, especially if you don't use it very often.

The term NFC doesn't tell much about the type of IC you're using or even the encryption/protection technology employed.  I'm assuming you're using an off-the-shelf RFID IC.  If you tell everyone which IC is used in the design, everyone can go fetch the datasheet and observe the data retention spec and what the protection scheme employed is.  If you're not willing to say which actual IC, even the frequency (125kHz? 13.56MHz?) and protection technology (MIFARE DESfire/EV1/EV2?) would at least be something.  From there, everyone will be able to better assess (a) how long the data is likely to be (accurately) retained by the device, and (b) what the strength of the encryption/protection scheme employed is and that it isn't designed around an NFC solution that has already been compromised (like, say, MIFARE Classic).

Not sure there's much use not disclosing which RFID IC is used.  As soon as people have them, someone's going to probe it with an RFID reader or Proxmark and fingerprint the IC (assuming it's an off-the-shelf IC), and then everyone will know anyway.

Off-the-shelf RFID IC's don't have unlimited data retention (same situation with most EEPROM and flash technologies).  As an example, the MIFARE DESfire line of RFID IC's spec a minimum data retention of 10 years.  They'll probably still be readable without flipped bits for some time beyond that, but that is not guaranteed.

[borskiBartek]

this look realy good!!!

[vapourminer]

Just to quickly answer a few questions:

I The idea is that once your data is written to the NFC chip inside, you lock it permanently, and then to redeem the data inside you must break the device open to obtain the main password to decrypting the device NFC chips which is kept on the inside.

I understand most of this but one aspect is a bit fuzzy to me.

it must be broken to redeem. the password to decrypt the NFC data is etched inside in some fashion? on something that is not destroyed by breaking the glass but not visible or scannable (say by a CT scanner)?

just how unbreakable is it. I mean I can swing a hammer really hard could one break it "too hard" to the point the password is not recoverable? or the NFC chip is broken? or do you read the chip data before breaking it?  perhaps (brief) instructions should be somehow visible when looking at the thing by eye? 30 years from now it may not be easy to figure out what this is if a decedent of mine finds it with no instructions.

[counter]

that is a pretty sharp looking gizmo.  I'm intrigued but also anxiously awaiting more details even thought this seems to be in the R&D stages.  I was just thinking I wonder what crazy_rabbit is up to these days and now I know.