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Author Topic: The current Bitcoin economic model doesn't work  (Read 79976 times)
MoonShadow
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October 06, 2011, 06:16:57 PM
 #421

For miners like me, it's not really about the value of the currency (BTC, USD, whatever) -- it's about the core principles and the concept.

Your valuation of BTC against USD shows that you do not think the same way about crypto-currencies as people like myself do.
What's wrong with you folks? I thought I was a conspiracy nut job till I saw people on this forum. Does a crypto-currency need to be stupidly volatile to be a good crypto-currency? Does anchoring its price to the average global electricity price means we're selling our souls to OPEC or something? Do you see Bitcoin ever going mainstream when one cannot even ensure it'll keep half of its worth by next week?

The premise of bitcoin is:
1- Anonymity
2- Control

My proposed model doesn't even touch these concepts. It's a purely economic suggestion. An unstable medium of exchange is a bad medium of exchange.

And you know what? By insisting on making Bitcoin fail it's probably you who's working for The Manipulator!

I shot down this idea back in Feb.  What has changed, Suggester?  Have the laws of economics been repealed since I last posted?  Do you have a new plan to peg the value of the bitcoin to a commodity service/product that doesn't break anonimity? 

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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October 06, 2011, 06:24:29 PM
 #422

It's a purely economic suggestion. An unstable medium of exchange is a bad medium of exchange.

It's only unstable in terms of other currencies, not goods / services.

People like me aren't really interested in economics.  People like me want to build a world free from economics altogether.

Quote
And you know what? By insisting on making Bitcoin fail it's probably you who's working for The Manipulator!

I will tell you right now I do not, but you yourself have already implicitly agreed that you do work for the Manipulator in an earlier post you made.  Do you want me to recite it to you?

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October 06, 2011, 06:31:35 PM
 #423

People like me aren't really interested in economics.  People like me want to build a world free from economics altogether.

That's a world that can never be, no matter how hard you wish it to be so.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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October 06, 2011, 06:33:30 PM
 #424

It's a purely economic suggestion. An unstable medium of exchange is a bad medium of exchange.

It's only unstable in terms of other currencies, not goods / services.

People like me aren't really interested in economics.  People like me want to build a world free from economics altogether.

Quote
And you know what? By insisting on making Bitcoin fail it's probably you who's working for The Manipulator!

I will tell you right now I do not, but you yourself have already implicitly agreed that you do work for the Manipulator in an earlier post you made.  Do you want me to recite it to you?

Actually, what you implicitly agreed to is that you do these things:
"suggest" changes to BTC that would make it more like regular physical centralized currencies.  Their suggestions hardly if ever add any value to our beloved crypto-currency, and when refuted and politely told why exactly they don't, these people just continue to plug their original argument.  Even when it is suggested to the suggester to just start his/her own damn currency, they often pass right over that possibility.

Regular people don't spend their free time to act this way on forums.  You're either compensated or insane.

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October 06, 2011, 06:34:20 PM
 #425

People like me aren't really interested in economics.  People like me want to build a world free from economics altogether.

That's a world that can never be, no matter how hard you wish it to be so.

That's an opinion that always is and will be, about everything.

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October 06, 2011, 06:42:34 PM
 #426

People like me aren't really interested in economics.  People like me want to build a world free from economics altogether.

That's a world that can never be, no matter how hard you wish it to be so.

That's an opinion that always is and will be, about everything.

Crypt, I think you might be mistaken on what the term economics means. It's merely the set of laws (in the sense of gravity, not Patriot Act) that govern exchange between individuals. Stuff like supply and demand... they exist until scarcity no longer exists.

I assume what you want is a world free from state control over economics altogether, no?
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October 06, 2011, 06:45:01 PM
 #427

People like me aren't really interested in economics.  People like me want to build a world free from economics altogether.

That's a world that can never be, no matter how hard you wish it to be so.

That's an opinion that always is and will be, about everything.

Crypt, I think you might be mistaken on what the term economics means. It's merely the set of laws (in the sense of gravity, not Patriot Act) that govern exchange between individuals. Stuff like supply and demand... they exist until scarcity no longer exists.

I assume what you want is a world free from state control over economics altogether, no?

Sure, yeah, whatever.   Cheesy Wink

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October 06, 2011, 07:00:23 PM
 #428

For example, I don't consider the dollar to be very stable at all, except in relation to a limited subset of goods and services over very, very short periods, but the dollar is still a very useful medium of exchange.
Your definition of "a limited subset of goods and services" seems to mean just about every consumer good and service out there, while your definition of "very, very short periods" seem to mean around 5+ years. And that's all nice and dandy till we find that you've got no problem with bitcoins' price shooting up and down several folds within weeks. You're weird, you know?

Been to the grocery store or the gas station lately?  The dollar is hardly stable in relation to food, water, or gasoline, and the period is far shorter than "5+ years".  How about the stock markets?  Commodity markets?  Forex markets?  Not exactly stable there either.  Natural gas or heating oil?  The dollar doesn't appear to be stable relative to anything but the penny.

Hoping for real long term stability is childish.  Expecting it is madness.  History tells us that state sponsored violence isn't enough to create stability.
Drama aside, I pointed out in the initial post that the proposed model will tie the coin's price to the average worldwide electricity costs. That's certainly not 100% stable on the long term, but I can promise you it won't double over a month nor lose half its value over 10 days. Let's just say it's significantly more stable than the current design. Got a better idea? Be my guest.

In my opinion, Bitcoin is already a better idea.  Bitcoin has stable rules, well known in advance and unchanging.  You just think it is unstable because you don't see the feedback mechanisms in the system.

Care to answer my question?

The value of everything floats.  Things that are more useful today than they were yesterday will become more valuable.  Things that are easier to produce today will become less valuable.  Hoping for real long term stability is childish.  Expecting it is madness.  History tells us that state sponsored violence isn't enough to create stability.  What makes you think you are clever enough to design an algorithm in advance that will achieve it no matter what tomorrow brings?

Oh, and to Crypt_Current...

People like me aren't really interested in economics.  People like me want to build a world free from economics altogether.

It doesn't really matter if you aren't interested in economics.  Economics is very interested in you.

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October 06, 2011, 07:00:59 PM
 #429

What's wrong with you folks? I thought I was a conspiracy nut job till I saw people on this forum. Does a crypto-currency need to be stupidly volatile to be a good crypto-currency? Does anchoring its price...

The premise of bitcoin is:
1- Anonymity
2- Control

There is a third premise that was explicit in bitcoin.
3. Fixed monetary policy

It was that third premise that represents the "soul" of this community.

There used to be a currency called the Drachma that represented the soul of one community. A currency called the Deutsche Mark that represented the soul of another community. Then someone suggested, "Wouldn't it be better if we created one currency that represented our combined souls?"

Turns out the answer was, "No. Probably not."

Some concepts have to compete. True can't collaborate with False by settling on Maybe. Or in answer to a famous question, "No, we can't all just get along."
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October 06, 2011, 07:05:09 PM
 #430


Oh, and to Crypt_Current...

People like me aren't really interested in economics.  People like me want to build a world free from economics altogether.

It doesn't really matter if you aren't interested in economics.  Economics is very interested in you.

So is Jesus Christ, Allah, the OTO, gravity, ITT Tech, Valued Opinions, and some medium named Tara.  I'll deal with economics interest in me in a similar fashion as I've dealt with all these:  Use it to afford myself a more comfortable living when I can do so without knowingly harming others in the process, and ignore it otherwise.  No one gets out of life alive, yet.

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October 06, 2011, 07:07:52 PM
 #431

What's wrong with you folks? I thought I was a conspiracy nut job till I saw people on this forum. Does a crypto-currency need to be stupidly volatile to be a good crypto-currency? Does anchoring its price...

The premise of bitcoin is:
1- Anonymity
2- Control

There is a third premise that was explicit in bitcoin.
3. Fixed monetary policy

It was that third premise that represents the "soul" of this community.

There used to be a currency called the Drachma that represented the soul of one community. A currency called the Deutsche Mark that represented the soul of another community. Then someone suggested, "Wouldn't it be better if we created one currency that represented our combined souls?"

Turns out the answer was, "No. Probably not."

Some concepts have to compete. True can't collaborate with False by settling on Maybe. Or in answer to a famous question, "No, we can't all just get along."


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October 06, 2011, 07:45:41 PM
 #432

No one gets out of life alive, yet.

Try and prove that statement.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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October 06, 2011, 08:29:34 PM
 #433

No one gets out of life alive, yet.

Try and prove that statement.

?

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October 06, 2011, 09:00:04 PM
 #434


What did you misunderstand?  There are three live assentions claimed in the KJV of the Bible alone.  Disprove them.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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October 06, 2011, 09:08:37 PM
 #435


What did you misunderstand?  There are three live assentions claimed in the KJV of the Bible alone.  Disprove them.

No no no. You can't take a story about something that never happened and then demand someone disprove it. That's how retarded religious chimps argue, and it is fundamentally flawed.

The easter bunny is real. Disprove it.

Santa Claus is real, too. Hitler is alive and living in the loft of my garage. Obama isn't a US citizen. Fucking Gilgamesh never killed the bull of heaven for slaying Enkidu, and Odysseus is still lost at sea.

You've got a lot to prove here, brother.

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October 06, 2011, 09:28:24 PM
 #436

Ah, I see, thanks for that Randy.

Yeah, I only said that "no one gets out of life alive" as a sort of assertion that everyone knows for sure that every human dies, but no one knows for sure that any human escapes or circumvents death.  So, "economics" and whatever else can "be interested" in me or threaten me or help me or whatever -- in the end I'll be six feet under and on that scale I'm a nihilist.

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October 06, 2011, 09:53:45 PM
 #437


What did you misunderstand?  There are three live assentions claimed in the KJV of the Bible alone.  Disprove them.

No no no. You can't take a story about something that never happened and then demand someone disprove it. That's how retarded religious chimps argue, and it is fundamentally flawed.

The easter bunny is real. Disprove it.


That's quite a claim.  Notice I didn't make any such claim.  I just asked him to prove his assertion, as if the reader should just take it on faith that what he says is so.  I make the same charge to you, since you seem to think you understand what I'm doing.  Prove the statement that the Easter Bunny is real.  I'm the reader, I am under no obligation to disprove it.

Quote

Santa Claus is real, too. Hitler is alive and living in the loft of my garage. Obama isn't a US citizen. Fucking Gilgamesh never killed the bull of heaven for slaying Enkidu, and Odysseus is still lost at sea.

You've got a lot to prove here, brother.

No, I don't.  I looks to me like you have a lot to prove.  Get started, you've just cut yourself quite a lot of work.

And I would recommend you try not to make claims that are not supportable in the future.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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October 06, 2011, 09:55:23 PM
 #438

Ah, I see, thanks for that Randy.

Yeah, I only said that "no one gets out of life alive" as a sort of assertion that everyone knows for sure that every human dies, but no one knows for sure that any human escapes or circumvents death.  So, "economics" and whatever else can "be interested" in me or threaten me or help me or whatever -- in the end I'll be six feet under and on that scale I'm a nihilist.

In the long run, we're all dead, right?


"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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October 07, 2011, 12:34:37 AM
 #439


What did you misunderstand?  There are three live assentions claimed in the KJV of the Bible alone.  Disprove them.

No no no. You can't take a story about something that never happened and then demand someone disprove it. That's how retarded religious chimps argue, and it is fundamentally flawed.

The easter bunny is real. Disprove it.


That's quite a claim.  Notice I didn't make any such claim.  I just asked him to prove his assertion, as if the reader should just take it on faith that what he says is so.  I make the same charge to you, since you seem to think you understand what I'm doing.  Prove the statement that the Easter Bunny is real.  I'm the reader, I am under no obligation to disprove it.

Quote

Santa Claus is real, too. Hitler is alive and living in the loft of my garage. Obama isn't a US citizen. Fucking Gilgamesh never killed the bull of heaven for slaying Enkidu, and Odysseus is still lost at sea.

You've got a lot to prove here, brother.

No, I don't.  I looks to me like you have a lot to prove.  Get started, you've just cut yourself quite a lot of work.

And I would recommend you try not to make claims that are not supportable in the future.

You told him to prove his assertion that is 100% confirmed by empirical evidence, and then quoted a fairy tale to cast doubt on his assertion.

One person is making outrageous claims, and the other is making obvious empirical claims. So who should prove it; the person whom ALL empirical evidence supports, or the guy talking about fairies? My series of examples was just mocking your choice of the bible as an empirical source. None of those is true, except for the Obama one.

I just don't understand people who play devil's advocate for ridiculous things. I mean, yes, some of us are currently alive and we cannot read the future and might never die, but when 100% of primary sources throughout history confirm a theory, doesn't that make it pretty goddamn sound?

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MoonShadow
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October 07, 2011, 12:50:48 AM
 #440

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And I would recommend you try not to make claims that are not supportable in the future.

You told him to prove his assertion that is 100% confirmed by empirical evidence, and then quoted a fairy tale to cast doubt on his assertion.


And yet, he didn't assert any such emprical evidence.  He stated it as a given, but didn't mention that it was a given on his part, and used it as a comparision of his correctness.  You can't make such an argument if there are dissenters, and at least all Catholics would dissent from the claim that "no one has gotten out of life alive, yet" would they not?  

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One person is making outrageous claims, and the other is making obvious empirical claims.


Which is which?  I certainly made no claims at all, simply highlighted an example of a document that portends to dispute his position.  Since your the one who claimed that Hitler's head was alive, I assume that your's were the outrageous claims that you refer to?

I really don't think that you understand what's going on here, and I find it rather depressing to imagine that you could be an educated adult.

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So who should prove it; the person whom ALL empirical evidence supports, or the guy talking about fairies?


Both of you, as far as I am concerned.  Again, he presented no evidence at all, and neither did you.  I've made no claims to support, I expect the author to support his position, not the reader.

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My series of examples was just mocking your choice of the bible as an empirical source. None of those is true, except for the Obama one.

Of course I know that you were attempting to mock me, and that is part of what makes your statements both sad and amusing.  You assumed that my referencing a document that contradicts his (and your's, presumedly) premise means that I was trying to argue that either position was correct.  I was not.  I was highlighting that there exists a large percentage of people who would disagree with his assertion, and that he left said assertion unsupported as if everyone would naturally agree that he was correct.

Please tell me you are still in high school.

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I just don't understand people who play devil's advocate for ridiculous things. I mean, yes, some of us are currently alive and we cannot read the future and might never die, but when 100% of primary sources throughout history confirm a theory, doesn't that make it pretty goddamn sound?

That's just it, 100% of historical sources do not confirm any such theory.  There are many historical documents besides the one that I referenced that have referred to such things.  Myths or not, not all sources support such a theorm.  You don't get to just dismiss those documents as myth, that's not your call.  It's also an intellectual cop-out.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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