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Author Topic: The current Bitcoin economic model doesn't work  (Read 79979 times)
Crypt_Current
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October 07, 2011, 01:22:51 AM
 #441

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And I would recommend you try not to make claims that are not supportable in the future.

You told him to prove his assertion that is 100% confirmed by empirical evidence, and then quoted a fairy tale to cast doubt on his assertion.


And yet, he didn't assert any such emprical evidence.  He stated it as a given, but didn't mention that it was a given on his part, and used it as a comparision of his correctness.  You can't make such an argument if there are dissenters, and at least all Catholics would dissent from the claim that "no one has gotten out of life alive, yet" would they not?  

Quote
One person is making outrageous claims, and the other is making obvious empirical claims.


Which is which?  I certainly made no claims at all, simply highlighted an example of a document that portends to dispute his position.  Since your the one who claimed that Hitler's head was alive, I assume that your's were the outrageous claims that you refer to?

I really don't think that you understand what's going on here, and I find it rather depressing to imagine that you could be an educated adult.

Quote


So who should prove it; the person whom ALL empirical evidence supports, or the guy talking about fairies?


Both of you, as far as I am concerned.  Again, he presented no evidence at all, and neither did you.  I've made no claims to support, I expect the author to support his position, not the reader.

Quote
My series of examples was just mocking your choice of the bible as an empirical source. None of those is true, except for the Obama one.

Of course I know that you were attempting to mock me, and that is part of what makes your statements both sad and amusing.  You assumed that my referencing a document that contradicts his (and your's, presumedly) premise means that I was trying to argue that either position was correct.  I was not.  I was highlighting that there exists a large percentage of people who would disagree with his assertion, and that he left said assertion unsupported as if everyone would naturally agree that he was correct.

Please tell me you are still in high school.

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I just don't understand people who play devil's advocate for ridiculous things. I mean, yes, some of us are currently alive and we cannot read the future and might never die, but when 100% of primary sources throughout history confirm a theory, doesn't that make it pretty goddamn sound?

That's just it, 100% of historical sources do not confirm any such theory.  There are many historical documents besides the one that I referenced that have referred to such things.  Myths or not, not all sources support such a theorm.  You don't get to just dismiss those documents as myth, that's not your call.  It's also an intellectual cop-out.

I dunno dude, I thought the two things most "normal, common" people generally take as concrete truths were:  1) death and 2) taxes.
My sane side takes it as fact that 100% of real, non-fictional humans that have lived and are not alive anymore, have died.  I think that's the 100% Randy was referring to.

Jeez, these forums, man... I thought *I* was fucking weird; my whole love of argument in general and transhumanism, and Uranus having a large influence in my chart causing me to think centuries ahead of my time.  You people make me feel NORMAL, and I fucking LOVE you for that.  :-D

It is REALLY goddamned nice that this thread has gone off topic, and it makes me feel extremely warm and fuzzy to know that I contributed to that.

I also want to add that I am a baptized and confirmed Catholic, and have many Catholic family members who would agree with me that they will most likely die someday.

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October 07, 2011, 01:44:08 AM
 #442

That's just it, 100% of historical sources do not confirm any such theory.  There are many historical documents besides the one that I referenced that have referred to such things.  Myths or not, not all sources support such a theorm.  You don't get to just dismiss those documents as myth, that's not your call.  It's also an intellectual cop-out.

PRIMARY sources, throughout history. Wikipedia that shit, holmes.

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October 07, 2011, 03:22:54 AM
 #443

That's just it, 100% of historical sources do not confirm any such theory.  There are many historical documents besides the one that I referenced that have referred to such things.  Myths or not, not all sources support such a theorm.  You don't get to just dismiss those documents as myth, that's not your call.  It's also an intellectual cop-out.

PRIMARY sources, throughout history. Wikipedia that shit, holmes.

What is a primary source for the theory "self does not survive the death of the body"?
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October 07, 2011, 04:18:32 AM
 #444

That's just it, 100% of historical sources do not confirm any such theory.  There are many historical documents besides the one that I referenced that have referred to such things.  Myths or not, not all sources support such a theorm.  You don't get to just dismiss those documents as myth, that's not your call.  It's also an intellectual cop-out.

PRIMARY sources, throughout history. Wikipedia that shit, holmes.

What is a primary source for the theory "self does not survive the death of the body"?

That isn't what we are talking about. We are talking about the comment that no one has made it out of life alive. LIFE::ALIVE

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October 07, 2011, 04:26:12 AM
 #445

That's just it, 100% of historical sources do not confirm any such theory.  There are many historical documents besides the one that I referenced that have referred to such things.  Myths or not, not all sources support such a theorm.  You don't get to just dismiss those documents as myth, that's not your call.  It's also an intellectual cop-out.

PRIMARY sources, throughout history. Wikipedia that shit, holmes.

Almost all human history that we in the modern age consider to be factual is based upon independent documented references.  The New Testament references itself, which is not trustworthy, but there are literally dozens of independent documents that claim that Jesus of Nazareth was a real person who was executed by a Roman official.  There is more evidence that Jesus was not a work of fiction than there is that Homer was more than a pseudonym or that, excluding his own written texts, that Plato was a real person and not a pseudonym for a collection of students of Socrates.  Yet I have encountered many who doubt that Jesus lived at all who wouldn't question that Plato was a real and singular person.  Do you really think that you get to exclude the perspectives of those who disagree with you, based primarily on your personal assessments of the quality of references?  Do you think that, because you have a particular belief, that those who do not share your belief are to be discounted or derided?  If you make a statement, you have the obligation to support the statement. 

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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October 07, 2011, 04:29:36 AM
 #446

BTW, no one can prove that "no one makes it out of life alive" because, although it's pretty obvious that it's close enough to be true, you can't prove a negative absolute. 

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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October 07, 2011, 09:25:45 AM
 #447

BTW, no one can prove that "no one makes it out of life alive" because, although it's pretty obvious that it's close enough to be true, you can't prove a negative absolute. 

"Everybody dies", then?

And even if I can't prove it's true, I can prove it's a classic deathmetal / grindcore album by Hateplow!  Grin

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October 07, 2011, 06:51:47 PM
 #448


You should have responded like this...

"If we agree with the generally accepted definition of self-evident truths – those which do not require hard evidence in order to evince acceptance – we run into two problems. The first is that at some time there surely must have been some evidence that caused universal acceptance of these truths; as in, it is self-evident that the Sun rises in the east every morning because the ancients and we have seen it there; as in, every human being has material needs to stay alive because the ancients and we have gotten hungry and cold and awkward at nakedness; as in, all things are subject to the laws of cause and effect, except for the uncaused cause, whom believers call God and our secular colleagues call Nature. These observations of the Sun and realizations of our own self-needs are, in fact, evidence for their universal acceptance. But the universality of these "truisms" (another way of saying self-evident truths) allows us to dispense with the need to provide scientific evidence in support of them whenever we articulate them. Stated differently, no rational person can seriously challenge truisms when we use them as building blocks for our arguments."

-Judge Neopolitano

But as soon as you had, I would have been inclined to point out that this is one truism, and economics is a set of same.  A set of natural laws that cannot be denied without a "cost" in some other aspect of the economy.  So just as no one gets out of life alive, nor do you get to ignore economics without a cost to yourself, whether you are aware of the loss or not.

Seriously, you kids are slow.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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October 08, 2011, 12:52:06 AM
 #449


You should have responded like this...

"If we agree with the generally accepted definition of self-evident truths – those which do not require hard evidence in order to evince acceptance – we run into two problems. The first is that at some time there surely must have been some evidence that caused universal acceptance of these truths; as in, it is self-evident that the Sun rises in the east every morning because the ancients and we have seen it there; as in, every human being has material needs to stay alive because the ancients and we have gotten hungry and cold and awkward at nakedness; as in, all things are subject to the laws of cause and effect, except for the uncaused cause, whom believers call God and our secular colleagues call Nature. These observations of the Sun and realizations of our own self-needs are, in fact, evidence for their universal acceptance. But the universality of these "truisms" (another way of saying self-evident truths) allows us to dispense with the need to provide scientific evidence in support of them whenever we articulate them. Stated differently, no rational person can seriously challenge truisms when we use them as building blocks for our arguments."

-Judge Neopolitano

But as soon as you had, I would have been inclined to point out that this is one truism, and economics is a set of same.  A set of natural laws that cannot be denied without a "cost" in some other aspect of the economy.  So just as no one gets out of life alive, nor do you get to ignore economics without a cost to yourself, whether you are aware of the loss or not.

Seriously, you kids are slow.


I know the cost all too well, my friend... I'm about to be homeless -- again.
Even at age 31, I do still feel like a kid at times.  Ya take the good with the bad, ya know?

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April 12, 2014, 02:33:12 PM
 #450



Every four years a miner needs to exert double the virtual effort to create the same amount of coins, which means he'll be constantly demanding higher prices to compensate for his costs. Which also means that bitcoins won't generally be spendable. Why? Because only an idiot spends a currency which he is certain its price will double within 4 years, effectively granting him about 19% real annual interest--significantly better than any bank or mutual fund.

Great! I hear you say, free money for everyone, right?

Wrong.

Just as it's futile to create and distribute free extra coins to anyone already owning them "to make everyone richer", built-in deflation won't be helping anyone on the long term. That free money will encourage people to hoard BTCs forever or until another wishful investor buys them, fueling speculation and price bubbles. Bitcoin will ultimately be regarded as a phony investment with no real value, just like the good ol' Pyramid (Ponzi) Scheme where everyone purchases a ticket just to sell it to someone else later for a high profit until the whole system collapses when it runs out of new victims.


Every word of this 4-year old post is holding true and if nothing changes, bitcoin faces the danger of the conclusion of this post.

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April 12, 2014, 08:44:33 PM
 #451

Is bearish necroing of ancient threads a bullish sign?

There is no bubble.
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April 13, 2014, 12:14:06 AM
 #452



Every four years a miner needs to exert double the virtual effort to create the same amount of coins, which means he'll be constantly demanding higher prices to compensate for his costs. Which also means that bitcoins won't generally be spendable. Why? Because only an idiot spends a currency which he is certain its price will double within 4 years, effectively granting him about 19% real annual interest--significantly better than any bank or mutual fund.

Great! I hear you say, free money for everyone, right?

Wrong.

Just as it's futile to create and distribute free extra coins to anyone already owning them "to make everyone richer", built-in deflation won't be helping anyone on the long term. That free money will encourage people to hoard BTCs forever or until another wishful investor buys them, fueling speculation and price bubbles. Bitcoin will ultimately be regarded as a phony investment with no real value, just like the good ol' Pyramid (Ponzi) Scheme where everyone purchases a ticket just to sell it to someone else later for a high profit until the whole system collapses when it runs out of new victims.


Every word of this 4-year old post is holding true and if nothing changes, bitcoin faces the danger of the conclusion of this post.

Economic law has not changed in the past 4 years, so this post is no more correct today than it wasn't 4 years ago.  Go take an economics class.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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April 13, 2014, 06:11:31 AM
 #453

Not everyone is holding forever for various reasons. Some people need to cash out to cover living expenses, some freak out like the past few days and sell, there is an equilibrium of sorts. Yes, bubbling and then popping, rinse and repeat, so what. Besides, other crypto currencies that came into existence since the original post are making sure bitcoin is being traded for them and spent at stores that recently started accepting them. This ensures people are getting less religous about holding bitcoin and developing more practical attitude just like to any other asset class.

People always tend to look at things as just black or white, but the truth is always somewhere in the middle.

What doesn't have characteristics of a ponzi after all?
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April 17, 2014, 09:50:50 AM
 #454

I'd also like to refute the whole "OMG early adopters are making a fortune!" argument: for an early adopter to maximize their profits from hoarding while the price rises, they would have to never lose faith in Bitcoin.  As soon as they do, they sell, and then they're at the same level as newcomers.
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April 17, 2014, 06:29:44 PM
 #455

to say it doesn't work is laughable.  Perfect, no far from it but Bitcoin is spreading around the globe so yea it is doing something right if you ask me and I believe many others feel the same way.
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April 17, 2014, 07:23:03 PM
 #456

Economic "law" written around the idea of infinite money creation and money based on debt is hilarious, just hilarious.
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January 02, 2016, 01:33:55 PM
 #457

to say it doesn't work is laughable.  Perfect, no far from it but Bitcoin is spreading around the globe so yea it is doing something right if you ask me and I believe many others feel the same way.

But what happens when all the halving has taken place and we hit the proposed 21 000 000 total bitcoins.
The difficulty is already knocking out the small individuals who are presumably the life and blood of the whole system...
Does the whole currency then get sold back to highest bidder ie: illuminati banksters and we are back to square one again..??
How does mining carry on after that if there are no rewards coming from the blockchain ... ??
How does the whole currency perpetuate into the future ... ??
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January 04, 2016, 02:27:08 PM
 #458

to say it doesn't work is laughable.  Perfect, no far from it but Bitcoin is spreading around the globe so yea it is doing something right if you ask me and I believe many others feel the same way.

But what happens when all the halving has taken place and we hit the proposed 21 000 000 total bitcoins.
The difficulty is already knocking out the small individuals who are presumably the life and blood of the whole system...
Does the whole currency then get sold back to highest bidder ie: illuminati banksters and we are back to square one again..??
How does mining carry on after that if there are no rewards coming from the blockchain ... ??
How does the whole currency perpetuate into the future ... ??

Please, not this again.  The difficulty is a self correcting system.  It's high now because so many people are competing for the block reward, which is still subsidized.  The subsidy cuts in half every 4 years, and will be inconsequential before all 21 million bitcoins have been issued around 2140 AD.  Either way, it won't be an issue I'll live to have to worry about, and probably not you either; and it would still outlive every fiat currency the world has yet seen.  Please search the forum history before asking the same questions that have been asked for 6 years.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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