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Author Topic: The current Bitcoin economic model doesn't work  (Read 81304 times)
WilliamJohnson
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June 06, 2011, 05:47:23 PM
 #381

But how can you lure the other nodes into accepting a brand new blockchain?
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June 06, 2011, 06:00:27 PM
 #382

With Three Letter Acronym MAGIC of course! They are wizards, don't you know?
ShadowOfHarbringer
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June 06, 2011, 06:50:44 PM
 #383

With Three Letter Acronym MAGIC of course! They are wizards, don't you know?

I think it will be the best just to ignore him.
He is either trolling us, he is some kid, or his fucked up & overgrown ego won't allow him to ever to listen to anybody but himself.

This thread is a total waste of time.

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June 06, 2011, 10:48:44 PM
 #384

But how can you lure the other nodes into accepting a brand new blockchain?
With Three Letter Acronym MAGIC of course! They are wizards, don't you know?
From Wikipedia: The main chain consists of the longest series of blocks from the genesis block to the current block.
And thank you Bitter for making it quite clear who exactly doesn't know what he's talking about.

I think it will be the best just to ignore him.
He is either trolling us, he is some kid, or his fucked up & overgrown ego won't allow him to ever to listen to anybody but himself.
Or he's a retired bored old man who's got nothing better to do than insult others whom he disagrees with instead of leaving them in peace and wasting his time on more entertaining activities.

This thread is a total waste of time.
I just LOVE how you keep coming only to say this thread is a waste of time only to come again a couple of hours later to just repeat the same thing. Listen buddy, if you wanna increase your post count why don't you just start a thread all for yourself and keep repeating whatever you want in it while leaving this thread to time-wasting people who want to actually accomplish something? If you really think it's a waste of time then you're better off getting a life without coming for a third time only to repeat the same thing, please.

Thanks for promising not to post here again. Have a great day.
BitterTea
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June 06, 2011, 10:55:04 PM
 #385

With Three Letter Acronym MAGIC of course! They are wizards, don't you know?
From Wikipedia: The main chain consists of the longest series of blocks from the genesis block to the current block.
And thank you for making it quite clear who exactly doesn't know what he's talking about.

Let me quote your original post which brought me back into this:

We don't need The CIA doesn't need to post anything to ruin the project. They have I'm sure they have a fake proof-of-work ready to launch whenever they feel Bitcoin has grown too dangerous. One extra block at that chain's end transferring everybody's money into the CIA account is all what's needed for a clean game over.

Of course someone with hashing power equal to or greater than the rest of the network can probably build a longer block chain. Can they do so forever? Probably not.

The part that concerns me and you have yet to explain, is how creating a longer block chain allows you to spend the transactions of others. Would you please explain how they would go about doing so, given that all transactions must be signed by the holder of the private key?
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June 06, 2011, 10:57:51 PM
 #386

From Wikipedia: The main chain consists of the longest series of blocks from the genesis block to the current block.
And thank you Bitter for making it quite clear who exactly doesn't know what he's talking about.


I would hope that you would know that Wikipedia is only as accurate as those who contribute articles, which in this case is not very accurate at all.  The main chain is the one with the greatest total proof-of-work, not necessarily the longest.  I could make a longer chain in the dark with one GPU and a hacked client (to set the block interval to one-hundreth of a second) running at a difficulty of one; but as soon as I attach my client to the rest of the network, my chain is going to cease to exist.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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June 06, 2011, 11:02:20 PM
 #387

how creating a longer block chain allows you to spend the transactions of others. Would you please explain how they would go about doing so, given that all transactions must be signed by the holder of the private key?
Why would they need to spend the transactions of others when they can simply freeze all the payments by always holding the upper hand (read: possessing the longer "magical" blockchain)? Their presumed goal is to ruin the project, not to steal people's coins.

The main chain is the one with the greatest total proof-of-work, not necessarily the longest.  I could make a longer chain in the dark with one GPU and a hacked client (to set the block interval to one-hundreth of a second) running at a difficulty of one; but as soon as I attach my client to the rest of the network, my chain is going to cease to exist.
I realize that creighto but it's implicitly understood. We're talking about the US government which owns computers powerful enough to create a greater proof of work than the rest of Bitcoiners combined, not some Russian script kiddy in a basement.

May I ask everyone to reserve their comments regarding crypto attacks on Bitcoin's infrastructure to its thread while reserving this one to the deflation and pricing problem? I know I started it all but I was innocently responding to Bitter's CIA joke.
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June 06, 2011, 11:10:52 PM
 #388

We're talking about the US government which owns computers powerful enough to create a greater proof of work than the rest of Bitcoiners combined, not some Russian script kiddy in a basement.

The bitcoin network has,  in collective, surpassed the total (estimated) hashing power of the top 500 (not secret) supercomputers on Earth.  Even taken as a given that the US government actually does have this much computational power in total, it would be a non-trivial issue for any branch to assert control of the computational power of the others for such a project.  And by the time this could be arranged, the power of the network will have quintupled once again.  IMHO, this was once a real concern, but no longer is.  This is no longer the most likely attack vector by any government agency, their attacks will come in the public view, not in the dark reaches of the Internet.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
BitterTea
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June 06, 2011, 11:12:28 PM
 #389

Why would they need to spend the transactions of others when they can simply freeze all the payments by always holding the upper hand (read: possessing the longer "magical" block)? Their presumed goal is to ruin the project, not to steal people's coins.

If they have half of the network's computing power (equal to the honest network) and fail to include transactions into blocks they create, confirmation can take twice as long.

I realize that creighto but it's implicitly understood. We're talking about the US government which owns computers powerful enough to create a greater proof of work than the rest of Bitcoiners combined, not some Russian script kiddy in a basement.

I really doubt that they have a significant amount of hardware that performs hashes as quickly as a distributed network full of ATI graphics cards. I imagine if they did, it would be rather centralized, and perhaps easy(ish) to take offline through some sort of attack.
marcus_of_augustus
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June 06, 2011, 11:51:50 PM
 #390

Suggester;

Quote
If I understood the crypto design correctly,

uh-huh.

DrSammyD
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June 07, 2011, 12:01:10 AM
 #391

Playing "smartass" without understanding anything is the domain of the mindless.
So it is clear who is mindless here.
+1

Says the smartass who thought billionaires held all their assets in cash.

ShadowOfHarbringer
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June 07, 2011, 07:25:36 AM
 #392

We're talking about the US government which owns computers powerful enough to create a greater proof of work than the rest of Bitcoiners combined, not some Russian script kiddy in a basement.

The bitcoin network has,  in collective, surpassed the total (estimated) hashing power of the top 500 (not secret) supercomputers on Earth.  Even taken as a given that the US government actually does have this much computational power in total, it would be a non-trivial issue for any branch to assert control of the computational power of the others for such a project.  And by the time this could be arranged, the power of the network will have quintupled once again.  IMHO, this was once a real concern, but no longer is.  This is no longer the most likely attack vector by any government agency, their attacks will come in the public view, not in the dark reaches of the Internet.

Actually, as chain "checkpoints" are hardcoded into the default Bitcoin client, even with the processing power it is practically impossible to pull something like this off.

MoonShadow
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June 07, 2011, 11:55:30 AM
 #393

We're talking about the US government which owns computers powerful enough to create a greater proof of work than the rest of Bitcoiners combined, not some Russian script kiddy in a basement.

The bitcoin network has,  in collective, surpassed the total (estimated) hashing power of the top 500 (not secret) supercomputers on Earth.  Even taken as a given that the US government actually does have this much computational power in total, it would be a non-trivial issue for any branch to assert control of the computational power of the others for such a project.  And by the time this could be arranged, the power of the network will have quintupled once again.  IMHO, this was once a real concern, but no longer is.  This is no longer the most likely attack vector by any government agency, their attacks will come in the public view, not in the dark reaches of the Internet.

Actually, as chain "checkpoints" are hardcoded into the default Bitcoin client, even with the processing power it is practically impossible to pull something like this off.

That's true, too; but they could still dick with the last couple hundred blocks.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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June 07, 2011, 12:22:31 PM
 #394

I just made an account on this forum, and I must admit the ignorance shown here by these fake "opponents" to the currency is nauseating at best. All they can do is reference to past event's and out-dated theory's that simply do not apply to bitcoin. I have been reading up on these coins for 2 weeks now, and to be honest with you, they seem so attractive to me, that my original plan of exchanging them for money immediately as I mine them has gone completely out the window! You trolls are only motivating people who are learning about bitcoins, and who see the pure brilliance behind them, to back them up EVEN MORE. Who the hell says that bitcoins were made to be used as a highly speculative investment ponzi scheme? Maybe the ill-intentioned trolls like Suggestor draw people to these conclusions, and maybe there are people out there trying to drive the "ponzi scheme", but we have to realize that these people simply do not understand the system. They think they can play ponzi with it because they don't believe in the systems resiliency, they think it will either be hacked, or taken down by the government at some point, but they are wrong.

We know this because the system that's been designed is beautiful, and was built with resiliency in mind. Don't you think all of these things were already foreseeable by the developers? Bitcoins are just like any other currency, except more predictable, and secure. I see collapse next to impossible, and the envy that I see in this forum by some stupid people who only wish they would of thought of it(or even had the remote brain capacity to even understand what the system really is) is a truly desperate attempt to shun the brilliance that is bitcoin. Some people thrive on the status quo because they can't see themselves evolving with times, either because their scared, or simply to stupid, and these people are what I call dinosaurs. I am here now, and though I heard about bitcoins a long time ago I have to admit I didn't grasp what they really were until they were reintroduced to me by a friend, and after 2 weeks of steady research (videos,articles,wiki,forums,MSM) I can honestly say you guys have my support 100%. I am here, remember that, and there a millions of us out there who support you and don't even know it yet. These people (like me) will invest in this economy JUST TO PROVE THE TROLLS WRONG. I believe in my heart that the developers, and the community as a hole has nothing but good intentions in mind for this project.

We truly don't even need the government backing us, or anyone for the matter including MT.GOX or any of these exchange markets. The key lies in strengthening our economy and I am already seeing it happen right before my eyes. I mean look at bitmunchies.com for god sake. The idea is genius, I can't wait to start saving hundreds of dollars on groceries just by buying from bit munchies.  They even got Chefboyardee  Grin

You have to be a fool not to know the true value of what has been built here. I do agree with some people that bitcoins are actually worth even more than they are trading for now, and while that may seem hard for anyone to imagine it's totally feasable. First you have to admit that FIRST MATTERS , if it didn't there would be no Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, or even dare I say Barack Obama.

YOU CAN BUILD A WEBSITE LIKE AMAZON.COM , BUT IT WILL NEVER BE AMAZON.COM . GET IT?

FIRST MATTERS NO MATTER HOW MUCH YOU TROLLS BRING UP COUNTER CURRENCY'S THAT DON'T EVEN EXIST YET, AND THAT ARE ALL FLAWED IN THEORY ANYWAY.

This system relies on three very basic things that I think are notable:

1. It's decentralized, to the point where no single entity can take over all of the nodes. If I read correctly in a previous post,the top 500 worlds super computers can't amount to our nodes, making it virtually impossible for anyone to shut us down. They would be better off investing their time and resources mining, and using it to back up their own reserves...
2.It's predictable, sure there will be bumps down the road, and I expect the market to fluctuate viciously. But they will never be able to stop people from using them for goods and services. And once again that is the key to this projects survival.
3.It's intelligent, I know its hard for people to humble themselves in this new "modern age", but for FFS you gotta admit when something is smart, and has the potential to change this entire planet as we know it.

That is my 2cents, see you guys around the forum, I will def be showing pictures of the rig I am going to be building this week for mining. I am also going to be putting in the little savings I have into all bitcoins. YEAH I'm putting my money where my mouth is, and even if the market fluctuates, I truly and deeply believe in the end result, that none of you will be able to stop. God I'm loving it  Cheesy !

And BTW I'm a Democrat, you don't have to be a conservative, libertarian, or anarchist to believe in this system. If you ask me it's a PERFECT check/balance to the current monetary system that we have now. It will finally put accountability back into the equation that bank's and world governments can't control, something that is purely ran by the people, and that will only make the existing monetary systems stronger, because then they will finally have true competition, and start taking their debt/taxes/budget management ALOT MORE SERIOUS.


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June 07, 2011, 01:29:18 PM
 #395

If we switch to an exponential difficulty requirement for chain forking, we can amplify the requirements for this type of attack and move it from "incredibly difficult" to "nearly impossible".

http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=11464.0

p2pcoin: a USB/CD/PXE p2pool miner - 1N8ZXx2cuMzqBYSK72X4DAy1UdDbZQNPLf - todo
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June 07, 2011, 06:25:05 PM
 #396

If the system is shown to be unfair on society in general, a newer currency will develop, and maybe laws to go with it that will compete with Bitcoin, presumaby this will lessen the value of Bitcoin.
So there might be an incentive to 'cheat' a little in some way, but once it starts hurting a lo of people, they wil come up with an alternative.


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June 07, 2011, 06:54:00 PM
 #397

It's all just a game. You have to look at it like that if you don't want be worried about losing money.

There will always be new things that come along.

Bitcoin is still relatively a new thing.

Let's hope it is harder to shut down than e-gold was.

http://bitcoin.co.cc/r1/banner.jpg (http://bitcoin.co.cc/r1/)
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October 06, 2011, 09:18:38 AM
 #398

Thanks to the (stupid) limited supply model which results in perpetual price bubbles and bursts, Bitcoin users have come under the mercy of exchangers. The reason is simple: One cannot trust their very own bitcoin wallet. If you have $100 worth of coins today on your computer, they could be worth $90 tomorrow, and then $80 the day after, which means you need to keep them in the form of fiat currency at the bitcoin exchanger's website or at a service linked to it such as Dwolla or LR to ensure your ability to utilize their full worth as bitcoins later.

Sounds familiar? It should. Because we're back to the good ol' banking system again. These exchangers and services can hold your money hostage till you send them scans of your personal documents where you could then be vulnerable to identity theft or at least a breach of privacy, or the exchangers' databases themselves can get hacked as was the case with MtGox in June and most recently Bitcoin7 yesterday, potentially undermining all your wealth.

Had Bitcoin used a flexible supply model which anchors a single coin's price to the amount of electricity needed to generate it, the community's reliance on such services would've been very limited. We'd only use them to get money in and out of the system, but not for storage over long periods of time where they're vulnerable to all sorts of misfortunes we're seeing now. It's not an exaggeration to say that every (non-speculating) user who lost money to a price burst, a database breach, or draconian security and AML regulations is probably a victim of the limited supply model.

If matters continue this way then the general population, which we were hoping to attract to adopt bitcoin usage, will lose all confidence in the P2P currency. Normal people aren't willing to keep their money in the form of a medium wildly fluctuating up and down by the day, while keeping it in the form of fiat with traditional institutions nullifies the whole purpose of bitcoin. This is an open letter for the project's developers to reconsider the current design in order to save this marvelous idea from an eminent failure.
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October 06, 2011, 10:49:15 AM
 #399

Suggester, Bitcoin can't be changed that way but a similar competing currency could be created. How would the flexible supply work? When demand shrinks whose money will be destroyed? When demand grows who will get the new money?
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October 06, 2011, 10:59:10 AM
 #400

Suggester, Bitcoin can't be changed that way
Yes it can.

a similar competing currency could be created
The current design is a failure so why not simply transform it instead?

How would the flexible supply work?
Read the first post in this thread.

When demand shrinks whose money will be destroyed?
Under normal circumstances (read: flexible supply) the total demand will almost never shrink. That's as unlikely as having a negative GDP growth in a given year. What will occasionally shrink however is the increase rate of total demand.

When demand grows who will get the new money?
It'd be random just like the current design. The proposed changes are really very limited.
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