Final Warning for Long-term holders...

[bitcoinsrus]

So tired of the "intrinsic value" argument (as if fiat currency has intrinsic value). What does have intrinsic value? Gold, silver I guess because of the time, effort and costs of producing them. What happens if major, easy to retrieve reserves are found someday? What happens if governments decide to tax the hell out of gold and silver so much so that nobody wants them anymore?

Value is whatever someone is willing to pay for something, plain and simple. If you have a house that some bureaucrat appraises at 10 million dollars, yet nobody wants to buy it from you, your house is effectively worthless. If someone wants to buy a Bitcoin from you for $500, it's value is $500, regardless of whether it is "intrinsic" or not.

While I understand emphasis put on intrinsic value (by some), it is easy to dance around the intrinsic value argument and draw convenient conclusions for or against bitcoin. As a buddy put it to me, fiat has no intrinsic value other than the cost of paper/metal making it and the fungibility as legal tender (a little bit of a naive argument but nonetheless revealing). Bitcoin is really new and that newness, and lack of understanding it, can cause all sorts of anxiety before people accept the concept. Sort of like when email was introduced - some were anxious about moving from tangible letters to an invisible thing. The argument can be made to those saying you cant touch BTC, that email is the same way, unless you print it, you cant touch it.

That said, I recognize the complexity of this debate spanning many disciplines (economics, cryptography, banking, sociology, political science).

+1

We used to back fiat by gold which is hard to dig up. Since fiat is no longer backed by gold it is turned into an IOY of the government with no actual value.
Bitcoin uses a complex math problem to back the currency which is a different type of work. Talking about how hard it is to dig for gold is more easily explained to average Joe then scalar division of a point on an elliptic curve which is confined to a fixed domain using a modulus function .

People need to accept bitcoin as "secure" without having to understand the concepts behind it. Like driving a car without knowing how a combustion engine works or sending mail without understanding TCP/IP.

People also like to hold something. I myself feel better with a bar of gold in my safe instead of a 53 char private key of a wallet with the equivalent value loaded. We need to learn and accept bitcoin. It's all a matter of time.

While I agree with you in theory, I do think the average joe needs to understand bitcoin.  For example, I try to explain bitcoin to my family members and they tell me they don't understand it.  When they imply it has no value, I mention that the value is in the utility (no double spending, secure network etc).  

I think if people understood exactly what bitcoin was and if they truly understood how fiat actually worked, maybe they would invest.  

[Jr65]

Do you promise this is the Final Warning for Long-term holders? 
We don't get to look forward to any more? 

I promise. No more "final final final warnings" new threads to come.

[boumalo]

So tired of the "intrinsic value" argument (as if fiat currency has intrinsic value). What does have intrinsic value? Gold, silver I guess because of the time, effort and costs of producing them. What happens if major, easy to retrieve reserves are found someday? What happens if governments decide to tax the hell out of gold and silver so much so that nobody wants them anymore?

Value is whatever someone is willing to pay for something, plain and simple. If you have a house that some bureaucrat appraises at 10 million dollars, yet nobody wants to buy it from you, your house is effectively worthless. If someone wants to buy a Bitcoin from you for $500, it's value is $500, regardless of whether it is "intrinsic" or not.

While I understand emphasis put on intrinsic value (by some), it is easy to dance around the intrinsic value argument and draw convenient conclusions for or against bitcoin. As a buddy put it to me, fiat has no intrinsic value other than the cost of paper/metal making it and the fungibility as legal tender (a little bit of a naive argument but nonetheless revealing). Bitcoin is really new and that newness, and lack of understanding it, can cause all sorts of anxiety before people accept the concept. Sort of like when email was introduced - some were anxious about moving from tangible letters to an invisible thing. The argument can be made to those saying you cant touch BTC, that email is the same way, unless you print it, you cant touch it.

That said, I recognize the complexity of this debate spanning many disciplines (economics, cryptography, banking, sociology, political science).

+1

We used to back fiat by gold which is hard to dig up. Since fiat is no longer backed by gold it is turned into an IOY of the government with no actual value.
Bitcoin uses a complex math problem to back the currency which is a different type of work. Talking about how hard it is to dig for gold is more easily explained to average Joe then scalar division of a point on an elliptic curve which is confined to a fixed domain using a modulus function .

People need to accept bitcoin as "secure" without having to understand the concepts behind it. Like driving a car without knowing how a combustion engine works or sending mail without understanding TCP/IP.

People also like to hold something. I myself feel better with a bar of gold in my safe instead of a 53 char private key of a wallet with the equivalent value loaded. We need to learn and accept bitcoin. It's all a matter of time.

While I agree with you in theory, I do think the average joe needs to understand bitcoin.  For example, I try to explain bitcoin to my family members and they tell me they don't understand it.  When they imply it has no value, I mention that the value is in the utility (no double spending, secure network etc).  

I think if people understood exactly what bitcoin was and if they truly understood how fiat actually worked, maybe they would invest.  

People don't understand fiat money but they use it anyway

Bitcoin has to be adopted without the power of force so people need to understand the utility or see that everyone uses it and it is convenient

[RodeoX]

Do you promise this is the Final Warning for Long-term holders? 
We don't get to look forward to any more? 

Haha ha. So true.  There will be daily final warnings for centuries.

[boumalo]

Do you promise this is the Final Warning for Long-term holders? 
We don't get to look forward to any more? 

Haha ha. So true.  There will be daily final warnings for centuries.

So much happened in the last 6months in Bitcoin world that I feel like everything will be different in 6months : trend, sentiment ect. It is exciting to watch but annoying to read stupid simple negative comments about a growing technology looking for massive adoption

[wachtwoord]

Every time I see this topic come up in my recent topics list I think: how nice of OP to give us one final warning. How considerate of him!

[solex]

Every time I see this topic come up in my recent topics list I think: how nice of OP to give us one final warning. How considerate of him!

This is one of those threads where the volume of replies is massively out of proportion to the quality (or rather, lack of) in the OP.

[akujin]

This kind of thread is the best way to attract the die hard bitcoin fans club members  

L-O-V-E BITCOIN! 

[Jr65]

Every time I see this topic come up in my recent topics list I think: how nice of OP to give us one final warning. How considerate of him!

You're welcome.

[podyx]

I'd like to take a minute out of my morning to thank all of you for your input and support. I have totally changed my mind about BTC based on your collective wisdom. BTC will be at $1,000,000,000,000 by the end of 2014, and maybe even by the end of today, and it will completely replace the dollar in 2015.

......

edit: seriously though, I like people with a different point of view but after reading this thread I still haven't changed my opinion at all(didn't expect it too either)

I think you're wrong, you're gonna have to hit harder then the average "expert"

[boumalo]

Every time I see this topic come up in my recent topics list I think: how nice of OP to give us one final warning. How considerate of him!

This is one of those threads where the volume of replies is massively out of proportion to the quality (or rather, lack of) in the OP.

It keeps being bumped, I wish I wouldn't see a thread in "show new replies to your posts" if I unwatched the thread

Every time I see this topic come up in my recent topics list I think: how nice of OP to give us one final warning. How considerate of him!

Final warning!

[counter]

Yea this final warning has proven to have been a life saver...  Pheew, that was close.

[Bit_Happy]

Do you promise this is the Final Warning for Long-term holders? 
We don't get to look forward to any more? 

Haha ha. So true.  There will be daily final warnings for centuries.

So much happened in the last 6months in Bitcoin world that I feel like everything will be different in 6months : trend, sentiment ect. It is exciting to watch but annoying to read stupid simple negative comments about a growing technology looking for massive adoption

BTC is an exciting adventure with many ups and downs.
Without some negative, the good times don't mean as much.

[Bitmore]

Nothing new under the sun that's worthwhile has no snags or problems.

I see a specific unique need that Bitcoin fills.  Worldwide!

Short term, yea.  It will have even MORE problems, and volatility, but long term (10 years) I think we will be at least richer.    High risk, but also extremely high potential.

No guts no glory, but I think this one is worth fighting and risking for and I am buying more until I can't afford them in the short term while they are still cheap.

[boumalo]

Nothing new under the sun that's worthwhile has no snags or problems.

I see a specific unique need that Bitcoin fills.  Worldwide!

Short term, yea.  It will have even MORE problems, and volatility, but long term (10 years) I think we will be at least richer.    High risk, but also extremely high potential.

No guts no glory, but I think this one is worth fighting and risking for and I am buying more until I can't afford them in the short term while they are still cheap.

Nice first post! I presume you are also posting with an other nickname?

A lot of members think like you

[tspacepilot]

I mainly appreciated the TL;DR summaries.  I did my best with the OP but that was some pretty dense stuff.

In my own HO, I think that even if we seem a lot of fluctuation in the next few years, there's a very good possibility that things stablize quite higher in the long term.  Already we're seeing the 'rules of the game' change a lot.  Once the rules settle down, we may indeed see some real progress.

[deemac87]

Perhaps they will hold it like they do gold at Ft Knox. That gives the government a stake in Bitcoin that they can borrow against, etc.

What gold in Fort Knox......

[Bit_Happy]

Nothing new under the sun that's worthwhile has no snags or problems.

I see a specific unique need that Bitcoin fills.  Worldwide!

Short term, yea.  It will have even MORE problems, and volatility, but long term (10 years) I think we will be at least richer.    High risk, but also extremely high potential.

No guts no glory, but I think this one is worth fighting and risking for and I am buying more until I can't afford them in the short term while they are still cheap.

Welcome to the forum, Bitmore:
Positive energy is a great thing to have and share. 

[keithers]

Please make paragraphs because it's really annoying and eye-hurt to read integral text  

Yes, please make paragraphs, because I want to read this but it is too intimidating as just a big chunk of words...