Bitcoin Forum
May 06, 2024, 04:56:09 PM *
News: Latest Bitcoin Core release: 27.0 [Torrent]
 
   Home   Help Search Login Register More  
Poll
Question: Poll: What is the best solution to the coming Scrypt ASIC problem for DigiByte?  (Voting closed: April 28, 2014, 05:02:08 PM)
Do Nothing - 38 (21.6%)
X11 Algo - 43 (24.4%)
Scrypt-N Algo - 52 (29.5%)
Multi-Algo (MYRAID) - 19 (10.8%)
HEFTY1 Algo - 4 (2.3%)
DOGE/DGB Merge-Mine - 5 (2.8%)
LTC/DOGE/DGB Merge-Mine - 10 (5.7%)
Other Algo Merge-Mine - 5 (2.8%)
Total Voters: 176

Pages: [1] 2 3 4 »  All
  Print  
Author Topic: Poll: What is the best solution to the coming Scrypt ASIC problem?  (Read 4903 times)
DigiByte (OP)
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1722
Merit: 1051


Official DigiByte Account


View Profile WWW
April 23, 2014, 05:02:08 PM
Last edit: April 23, 2014, 05:41:56 PM by DigiByte
 #1

Poll will remain open for 5 days. You are allowed to change your vote. Please post additional pros/cons of the different options and we will add them to the list.

On April 16th KNC issued another update for their Scrypt ASICs that are scheduled for delivery in Q2/Q3 (June/July) of this year. The Titans will now be hashing at around 300 MH which is up from the previously stated 250 MH.

One thing we can all agree on is Scrypt Mining profitability for GPU’s is going to drop like a rock within a one- two week time frame. Not to mention this is just the 1st generation of Scrypt ASICS. KNC Press Release

Given that DigiBytes daily net hash has fluctuated between 500 MH and 1 GH the past few days, 1-2 people with Titans could easily fork DigiByte or other lesser known Scrypt coins.

So what are the options DigiByte or any other Scrypt coin can take right now?




Option 1: Do Nothing & Embrace Scrypt ASICs
Pros:
* No Hard-Fork Required
* More professional mining market will emerge
* Attractive to long-term ASIC mining investors


Cons:
* Centralization of Scrypt hashing power
* Lesser known coins easily forked
* 1-2 People with Titans could currently fork most Scrypt coins
* Very high cost barriers to compete ($5k-$10k) in Scrypt Asic Mining
* Goes against most peoples reason for becoming involved with cryptos
* Will eliminate GPU mining for most Scrypt coins
* Will push most GPU miners to other ASIC resistant coins
* Most Scrypt ASIC miners will dump mined coins to re-coup hardware costs

Resources:
*Doge Dev Summary on staying Scrypt
*Litecoin Dev Teams Position on Algo Switching



Option 2: X11, the Darkcoin Approach


Pros:
* GPU miners can still profitably mine
* ASIC resistant for the near future
* GPUs run cooler
* GPUs use less electricity
* blake, bmw, groestl, jh, keccak, skein, luffa, cubehash, shavite, simd, echo

Cons:
* ASIC creation still possible & likely
* X11 Mining Software possibly not optimized
* Some of the x11 algos were dropped from the SHA selection process due to security issues
* Hard-forking required

Resources:
*Darkcoin Thread
*Doge Dev Summary on X11



Option 3: Scrypt-N, the VertCoin Approach

Pros:
*GPU miners can still profitably mine
*Increases memory requirements as hardware bottleneck
*Adaptive memory increase into the future/ Moore's law
*ASIC resistant into the future

Cons:
* Hard-forking required

Resources:
*Vertcoin Thread



Option 4: Multi-Algo, the Myraidcoin Approach

Pros:
*All miners can mine
*Scrypt, SHA256D, Qubit, Skein or Groestl
*Each algorithm has separate difficulty
*Any algorithm can find the next block
*Each algorithm aims for a block generation time of 2.5 minutes
*Over the five algorithms, a block should be found on average every 30 seconds

Cons:
*Technically Challenging & somewhat untested
*Hard-forking required
*Unforeseen attacks may exist
*Difficult for mining pools to implment

Resources:
*Myraidcoin Thread



Option 5: HEFTY1, the Heavycoin Approach

Pros:
*SHA-256, Keccak-512, Grøestl-512, BLAKE-512

Cons:
* Hard-forking required

Resources:
*Heavycoin Thread



Option 6: Merge-Mine Dogecoin & DigiByte

Pros:
*More blockchain security
*Combination of communities
*Larger net hash
*Very attractive to ASIC miners

Cons:
* Loss of complete autonomy
* Negative press or events with 1 coin will effect all merge mined coins

Resources:
*!



Option 7: Merge-Mine Litecoin, Dogecoin & DigiByte

Pros:
*More blockchain security
*Combination of communities
*Larger net hash
*Very attractive to ASIC miners
*Bitcoin is Gold, Litecoin is Silver
*DigiByte is the dollar, Dogecoin is like a quarter

Cons:
* Not likely to happen
* Loss of complete autonomy
* Negative press or events with 1 coin will effect all merge mined coins

Resources:
*!



Option 8: Merge-Mine with other coins using a different algo

Pros:
*More blockchain security
*Combination of communities
*Larger net hash
*Very attractive to GPU miners

Cons:
* Loss of complete autonomy
* Negative press or events with 1 coin will effect all merge mined coins
Resources:
*!




If you would like to know more about DigiBytes long term vision watch our NYC presentation here:



1715014569
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1715014569

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1715014569
Reply with quote  #2

1715014569
Report to moderator
"I'm sure that in 20 years there will either be very large transaction volume or no volume." -- Satoshi
Advertised sites are not endorsed by the Bitcoin Forum. They may be unsafe, untrustworthy, or illegal in your jurisdiction.
1715014569
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1715014569

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1715014569
Reply with quote  #2

1715014569
Report to moderator
1715014569
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1715014569

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1715014569
Reply with quote  #2

1715014569
Report to moderator
1715014569
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1715014569

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1715014569
Reply with quote  #2

1715014569
Report to moderator
DigiByte (OP)
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1722
Merit: 1051


Official DigiByte Account


View Profile WWW
April 23, 2014, 05:15:10 PM
 #2

As I already wrote here X11 won't you buy much time.

This is our thought as well. Non the less lets get a fact based discussion going. Lets add as many pros & cons as we can to each option.

bvault
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 112
Merit: 10


View Profile
April 23, 2014, 05:21:05 PM
 #3

As I already wrote here X11 won't you buy much time.

This is our thought as well. Non the less lets get a fact based discussion going. Lets add as many pros & cons as we can to each option.

This is a great poll, I love how there are pro's and con's listed for each decision. Kudos digibyte team!

---------------
BTC - 13WkfueYZzx7d9VLXgkf9TtDBPhUVHizCh
Moxymore
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 159
Merit: 100



View Profile
April 23, 2014, 05:25:22 PM
 #4

I have voted for : Multi-Algo (MYRAID)

Tell me if I have wrong, but with MYRIAD, each algo will have it's own difficulty right? That's why I voted for this choice...

♥ Digibyte ♥ "THE" Digital currency of the future ♥
gielbier
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 914
Merit: 250


Making Smart Money Work


View Profile
April 23, 2014, 05:29:48 PM
 #5

You forgot Skein.

█████▄
██▀   ▀██
██     ██
▀██▄ ▄██▀
▄████▄   ▀███▀   ▄████▄
▄██▀  ▀██▄▄████▄▄██▀  ▀██
██       ███   ███       ██
██▄  ▄██▀▀████▀▀██▄  ▄██▀
▀████▀   ▄███▄   ▀████▀
▄██▀ ▀██▄
██     ██
██▄   ▄██
▀█████
          ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄    ▄▄▄▄    ▄▄
Prasaga
                                                    ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄    ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄
████████████████▄
██████████████████▄
████████████████████▄
█████████████████████
█████████████████████
█████████████████████
█████████████████████
█████████████████████
█████████████████████
█████████████████████
█████████████████████
█████████████████████
█████████████████████
WHITEPAPER     
►  TECH WP
►  COMMERCIAL WP
griffinriz
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 476
Merit: 250



View Profile
April 23, 2014, 05:32:49 PM
 #6

IMO X11 and Hefty1 is best.
DigiByte (OP)
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1722
Merit: 1051


Official DigiByte Account


View Profile WWW
April 23, 2014, 05:33:17 PM
 #7

I have voted for : Multi-Algo (MYRAID)

Tell me if I have wrong, but with MYRIAD, each algo will have it's own difficulty right? That's why I voted for this choice...
Stats updated for Myraid coin.

DigiByte (OP)
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1722
Merit: 1051


Official DigiByte Account


View Profile WWW
April 23, 2014, 05:33:44 PM
 #8

You forgot Skein.
Do you have a link with more info?

DigiByte (OP)
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1722
Merit: 1051


Official DigiByte Account


View Profile WWW
April 23, 2014, 05:43:02 PM
 #9

You forgot Skein.
Do you have a link with more info?

Skein is one of the hashing algorithms used in X11...I think it's number 4  Grin
What would be the advantages of it being used by itself vs just using keccak which won the SHA-3 contest?

Ryven Cedrylle
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 75
Merit: 10


View Profile
April 23, 2014, 05:43:10 PM
 #10

I voted Myriad but if you don't do that, do nothing. The best way to secure your network is to make it as accessible to as many as possible. Cheap low-wattage ASICs mean a community that likes a coin for its own sake can keep it going, perhaps not profitably for the miners but at least not at a significant loss. Myriad could accomplish the same thing if tech-poor CPU miners like myself at least have a shot at being effective.
DigiByte (OP)
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1722
Merit: 1051


Official DigiByte Account


View Profile WWW
April 23, 2014, 05:44:39 PM
 #11

I voted Myriad but if you don't do that, do nothing. The best way to secure your network is to make it as accessible to as many as possible. Cheap low-wattage ASICs mean a community that likes a coin for its own sake can keep it going, perhaps not profitably for the miners but at least not at a significant loss. Myriad could accomplish the same thing if tech-poor CPU miners like myself at least have a shot at being effective.
This is a very valid point. Ideally it would be awesome if everyone was able to mine a coin. Cpu's, ASICs and more. Does someone have a link to a more technical description of Myraid, or have first hand experience. More info on mining pools would be nice as well!

DigiByte (OP)
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1722
Merit: 1051


Official DigiByte Account


View Profile WWW
April 23, 2014, 05:53:48 PM
 #12

You forgot Skein.
Do you have a link with more info?

Skein is one of the hashing algorithms used in X11...I think it's number 4  Grin
What would be the advantages of it being used by itself vs just using keccak which won the SHA-3 contest?

Using just one of them ( be it Skein, Keccak, Grøstl, ...) makes it even more easy to develop an ASIC.
Most are all basically just a shitload of AND, OR, XOR, NOT, SHR and ROT operations.

ASIC (and GPU) heaven...
So the more the better. What about a combination of Scrypt-N, Keccak, Sha-256 and Scrypt. So everyone could mine? Similar to Myriadcoin?

Ryven Cedrylle
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 75
Merit: 10


View Profile
April 23, 2014, 06:15:38 PM
 #13

This is a very valid point. Ideally it would be awesome if everyone was able to mine a coin. Cpu's, ASICs and more. Does someone have a link to a more technical description of Myraid, or have first hand experience. More info on mining pools would be nice as well!

For the record, "do nothing" is what the Dogecoin community has decided for the foreseeable future. The idea is to get enough miners to adopt ASICs (like the Zeus 8W 300 KH for about $90) that no one person really ends up spending much in electricity and build strength in numbers. Of course, GPU miners who can operate at whatever their electric bills run can stick around as well. Doge has a much shorter time than DigiByte to implement before the halvings make mining not particularly profitable, so it will be good to watch and see how that goes. The canary in the cave, if you will.
Kergekoin
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 546
Merit: 500


View Profile
April 23, 2014, 06:20:22 PM
 #14

Perhaps multi algo scrypt + sha256 blake would be nice idea. Graphic card miners will switch to blake and it will be fine for ages. I very much doubt that blake will become popular enough for asic makers to dedicate develop asic for it. At least not any time soon.

******  NB! The links below are affiliate - friend type links, which bring additional benefits both, to you and me  ******
Binance - Best Crypto Trading Platform          CoinBase - Fastest way from FIAT to Crypto
Windscribe - The quickest and easyest way to secure and anonymize your internet traffic
DigiByte (OP)
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1722
Merit: 1051


Official DigiByte Account


View Profile WWW
April 23, 2014, 06:23:32 PM
 #15

Perhaps multi algo scrypt + sha256 blake would be nice idea. Graphic card miners will switch to blake and it will be fine for ages. Unless blake becomes popular enough for its own asic chip.
We are thinking an updated multi-algo myraid/ approach would be the most fair. Here is a very interesting article on the SHA-3 finalists.
http://csrc.nist.gov/groups/ST/hash/sha-3/Round3/March2012/documents/papers/WENZEL_BENNER_paper.pdf

According to the results, Blake looks like it would be the easiest of all algos to develop an ASIC for. Skein looks to be the most RAM intensive.

The question is how would different algos be weighted evenly?

Voluntold
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 168
Merit: 100


View Profile
April 23, 2014, 07:14:03 PM
 #16

Buy NXT or mine it at hashrate.org is what you should do, because PoW is going to eventually be a thing of the past.  The only PoW coins that will be worth something imo are coins that use the hashing power for something useful like prime numbers or BOINC or something.  But just hashing numbers for no purpose, and wasting electricity when we now know of better ways to secure networks (like PoS), is going to eventually be obsolete I think.

Nxt:  NXT-5BHG-9VRE-QGW6-DRZVQ
EvilDave
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 854
Merit: 1001



View Profile
April 23, 2014, 07:30:05 PM
 #17

I was going to be a bastard and say: sell yr DGB and move into PoS, preferably with NXT, but someone beat me to it.....

Nulli Dei, nulli Reges, solum NXT
Love your money: www.nxt.org  www.ardorplatform.org
www.nxter.org  www.nxtfoundation.org
Amph
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 3206
Merit: 1069



View Profile
April 23, 2014, 07:33:38 PM
 #18

actually with instamine you can compete even against titan, as long as you come first and the coin isn't anti-instamine of course
Snail2
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1512
Merit: 1000



View Profile
April 23, 2014, 07:36:18 PM
 #19

Buying script ASICs would be the best solution.
Kergekoin
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 546
Merit: 500


View Profile
April 23, 2014, 07:45:03 PM
 #20

Perhaps multi algo scrypt + sha256 blake would be nice idea. Graphic card miners will switch to blake and it will be fine for ages. Unless blake becomes popular enough for its own asic chip.
We are thinking an updated multi-algo myraid/ approach would be the most fair. Here is a very interesting article on the SHA-3 finalists.
http://csrc.nist.gov/groups/ST/hash/sha-3/Round3/March2012/documents/papers/WENZEL_BENNER_paper.pdf

According to the results, Blake looks like it would be the easiest of all algos to develop an ASIC for. Skein looks to be the most RAM intensive.

The question is how would different algos be weighted evenly?

Doesnt really matter if developing ASIC for algo is a bit easyer or harder. If certain algo gets enough popularity, they will do it anyway.
Weighting problem is an issue for discussion. Theres no perfect fairness in multi algo solution. Just got to go with a best possible choice i quess.

******  NB! The links below are affiliate - friend type links, which bring additional benefits both, to you and me  ******
Binance - Best Crypto Trading Platform          CoinBase - Fastest way from FIAT to Crypto
Windscribe - The quickest and easyest way to secure and anonymize your internet traffic
Pages: [1] 2 3 4 »  All
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!