BFL Experience

[bcp19]

Why would anyone be wasting time with a bfl single or any bfl 65 nm product right now? Aren't they losing money after electricity costs are factored in?

Maybe they are mining for the future.  The price of bitcoin is unlikely to stay at this price forever or you're going to see a lack of new products as the difficulty of getting more would just keep getting more and more into the red.  Look at the sale of GPUs with just the preorder of scrypt ASICs.  People want to get what money they can, and by doing so, the resale GPU price has more than halved from excess supply and lack of demand.  Without an increase in the price of BTC, we'll soon hit that same mark in regards to new ASICs.  In addition, with the new IRS ruling, if I mine BTC and spend more on electricity than I mine, I can take a loss on my taxes.

[norgan]

I am running them at work so not paying for power myself and the amount they draw is so small on the power footprint we have.

As for the photo's I received a brand new board today for the RMA.

Old damaged unit:






New one arrived today will upload in a moment.

[norgan]

New board sent:

[Bicknellski]

People might want to contact the Judge and the Probation Officer for Sonny V? They would be very interested in accounts of BFL not paying a full refund as required by FTC regulation.

U.S. Probation Officer Courtney N. Pierce
Probation and Pretrial Services Office
Charles Evan Whittaker Courthouse
400 East 9th Street
Kansas City, MO
64106

David Gregory Kays, Chief District Judge

Contact Information

The judge's most damning comments, however, centered on his overall BFL observations:

Now, there is a stench coming from Butterfly Labs. It's a strong smell. It's not enough to send you to prison today, because, to be quite honest with you, if it was, we'd be talking about 24 months in prison. It's not—I think it's too close. I think [defense witness] Mr. Bourne did a very good job of testifying, and it assisted your defense greatly. But if I find out that there is this fraud word involved in this part, you know, Mr. Vleisides, as we say here at the courthouse, you need to get your toothbrush and get your things in order, because fraud will not be tolerated, you understand that? So I would work very hard to make these consumers happy consumers who you've dealt with.

[jimmothy]

So I would work very hard to make these consumers happy consumers who you've dealt with.

I lol'd

[Bicknellski]

So I would work very hard to make these consumers happy consumers who you've dealt with.

I lol'd

It'd be funny if it weren't for the fact the Judge didn't really get to see the long list of people complaining. If he had I doubt Sonny V. be going to BFL HQ everyday. The likelihood of him actually getting jail time increases each day and with each new Monarch "pre-order". All they need next time they drag him in front of a judge is an expert that explains what was happening (is happening) at Eclipse during burn in "testing" miners which is something they denied doing at the time. Game over.

[norgan]

So I would work very hard to make these consumers happy consumers who you've dealt with.

I lol'd

It'd be funny if it weren't for the fact the Judge didn't really get see the long list of people complaining. If he had I doubt Sonny V. be going to BFL HQ everyday. The likelihood of him actually getting jail time increases each day and with each new Monarch "pre-order". All they need next time they drag him in front of a judge is an expert that explains what was happening (is happening) at Eclipse during burn in "testing" miners which is something they denied doing at the time. Game over.

how could they prove that? they would need to get a warrant for connection logs or something right? I noticed the monarch product page is very clear about being preorders and that they cannot promise any dates and that if you don't like that then don't order. How is that illegal or even immoral? (putting aside the hashing on eclipse).

What do you think of the photos? does that prove to you that I got a brand new unit (even if this is the exception rather than the rule).

[jimmothy]

how could they prove that? they would need to get a warrant for connection logs or something right? I noticed the monarch product page is very clear about being preorders and that they cannot promise any dates and that if you don't like that then don't order. How is that illegal or even immoral? (putting aside the hashing on eclipse).

What do you think of the photos? does that prove to you that I got a brand new unit (even if this is the exception rather than the rule).

Sounds like words straight from the mouth of the bullshitter josh himself.

Here are a few but not nearly all of the laws BFL has broken:
- denial of refunds
- false advertising
- using customer hardware to make money
- slander of critics
- paying shills

Please do explain how this makes it very clear that monarchs will be shipping in july or later:

[norgan]

ahh ok I was looking at the 1th/s one:

Shipping Schedule
This is a Pre-Order product which is not yet shipping.  If you're uncomfortable waiting until the development is complete and the product is shipped, do NOT pre-order this product. Perhaps undesirable, but this is a pre-order market.  Customers flatly demand to get in line for the new technology before it's finished development.  This has created a lot of drama for the manufacturers but it's something we simply have to deal with.  All manufacturers in this space have experienced some degree of delay with their first generation ASIC.  Every last one of them, so we're reluctant to give a specific delivery date.  However, this is our second generation, so we have much greater clarity on the process and plan to begin shipments in May 2014.  Orders are shipped in order date priority so any order placed now should be expected to be delivered in June.

Like is said though how could we possibly prove that BFL is mining on EMC?

I really don't have enough facts myself to properly comment on the claims except to ask the above about the claim of using customer hardware.
False advertising is difficult when there are no actual promises on exact dates. If they don't deliver at all then sure you should get your money back and if they take 6 months to deliver then one could assume that it is not delivered so sure, a full refund should be given. Have BFL not been refunding people who have preorders?

I don't know what the local laws are there or how they translate to international sales but I know our local laws cover all of that and any Consumer Tribunal member would easily rule for an order to pay and your money is back.

I feel like I have stepped into a much bigger argument than I currently know of so excuse me if I seem to be over simplifying or have anything wrong.

I am genuinely interested though and I am struggling to prove to you that I'm just trying to get an idea of how this industry works. I put my (no reputation) on the line to share something positive and all I am copping is accusations.

 

[Bicknellski]

Discovery BFL gives to Woodlaw will probably have more than enough evidence to determine it either way. Given the latest slow mo' delivery with the Monarch you can only imagine why it is taking 15 months to get a 28nm chip married to a board. Compared to KnC or Spondoolies? The least one can say is BFL blows at getting things to market. You can get 6.5Th/s in August for 4500 USD. I suspect the Monarch will be shipping later than that and all you get is 1 Th/s in an unproven board? BFL is already two or three generations behind with their foolish GPU inspired mining card. They won't dig out of this debacle because they have no answers to density and cooling. You don't get there using a GPU card form factor.

Put things in real tight perspective for you every unit they have built has been late and underspecification. No one in their right mind would buy BFL at this point doesn't matter how many refunds they finally give out to save Sonny V from going to jail or RMA's, no one who has done their research is going to buy from BFL. If you agree with that point then you ain't no shill.

[Syke]

Like is said though how could we possibly prove that BFL is mining on EMC?

They've already admitted to it. It's in the court record, straight from BFL's lawyer.

[Henchman24]

Like is said though how could we possibly prove that BFL is mining on EMC?

They've already admitted to it. It's in the court record, straight from BFL's lawyer.

Yup.  BFL actually owns EMC.

[Namnuta]

If you have been on BFL forums you have probably seen my user name in power supply threads helping others get there products working since BFL provides zero forum support. I was also active in the easyminer threads telling folks to use bfgminer and a .bat file, and present in the eclipse MC threads.

I had always offered support until BFL JOSH made his outrageous claim that there power supplies are fine and its user error.


If anyone has BFL hardware, stop using your power supply now and get and ATX. There supplies are a fire hazard and not safe...Period.

Do not use Easyminer software, it is buggy garbage and a simple .bat file and BFGminer will save you so many headaches, give you more info on your hardware etc.  

Avoid Eclipse MC as there are owned and run by BFL, and have the worst payouts out of everyone. I'm a slush guy but i am not going to plug my pool, just want to be up front. Just please avoid EMC as they are not transparent, have the lowest payout and are in fact owned and operated by BFL or a close affiliate.


I post this here because Butterfly Labs Staff have now banned me for speaking the truth and deleted all my posts; and I will help anyone with BFL hardware that has issues.

And to think i used to be a BFL fanboy. LMAO

Last edit. Wasn't there reports that BFL was or is using and unlicenced version of Altium for there layouts? Back when they released the specs for the 60GH singles? Ill do some more digging but i am wondering if anyone has more information on this.

BFL has woken the Lion with very deep pockets.

[lysernix]

Why would anyone be wasting time with a bfl single or any bfl 65 nm product right now? Aren't they losing money after electricity costs are factored in?

I could be wrong... if so please correct me.

I do have a 55gh single running. These days of course its pitiful, but its been running forever and used to do a lot better ... and I've just never bothered to unplug it!

Based on TODAY'S difficulty and TODAY's price 8000872135 / ~$450

I calculate it's still producing ~0.09 BTC per 30 days = ~$40.

@ 275W @ 24/7 @ 30 days my power cost is $0.064313 per KWH

Costs $12.73 per month to run.

Now. I did these calculations in just a few minutes and I could be GROSSLY mistaken... so if I am please correct me. All numbers are fairly approximate.

While it only makes yes, a bare pittance, it's still technically profitable? Of course this may (and will) quickly change as difficulty increases and at some point I will unplug it or lose money mining "fun" alt-coins.

For the record: I do not like BFL 1% and continue to marvel at their shipping delays which only become more impressive each day.

[Syke]

Based on TODAY'S difficulty and TODAY's price 8000872135 / ~$450

I calculate it's still producing ~0.09 BTC per 30 days = ~$40.

@ 275W @ 24/7 @ 30 days my power cost is $0.064313 per KWH

Costs $12.73 per month to run.

Now. I did these calculations in just a few minutes and I could be GROSSLY mistaken... so if I am please correct me. All numbers are fairly approximate.

Sounds about right. You have unusually low power costs, which is why you can stay above water. Most miners have significantly higher costs, especially when you including cooling costs.

[lysernix]

Thanks for the reply. I have to recalculate every once in a while to make sure I'm still above water. haha.

here are my power rates: http://www.westarenergy.com/wcm.nsf/resources/Residential%20Rates/$file/Residential%20Rates.pdf?openelement

if you don't want to click that google "westar energy kwh rate" -- this is the Kansas City area (yes BFL is right down the street from me, almost haha)

Our rates actually go up a little in the summer to $0.075589 per kWH so it looks like sometime this summer when diff is just absolutely astronomical it will be time to retire it. Till then... I'll continue to rake in the 0.003 per day.

[Syke]

Thanks for the reply. I have to recalculate every once in a while to make sure I'm still above water. haha.

here are my power rates: http://www.westarenergy.com/wcm.nsf/resources/Residential%20Rates/$file/Residential%20Rates.pdf?openelement

Well, yeah, but your actual rate isn't $0.064313. That's the base charge. They also add in several more charges.

Base: $0.064313
Fuel Charge: $0.021836
Transmission Charge: $0.011165
Environmental Cost: $0.003136
Energy Efficient Rider: $0.000538
Property Tax Surcharge: $0.001106
Subtotal: $0.102094
Francise Fee (3%): $0.00306282
Local Sales Tax (1%): $0.00102094

Actual rate: $0.10617776

Which is actually 65% higher than you first estimated.

[lysernix]

Aha. That's the sort of catch I was hoping someone would find for me.

Yes I glanced at those rates way too quickly. Lol...

Well, even at that rate... ($21 now per 30 days instead of $12 / 30) it's still technically profitable... though not for much longer.

Of course I also assume 275W based on BFL power supply... which I'm using a PC Power & Cooling which I believe does marginally better.... but I digress...

In any case. Still technically profitable but closer than I thought.

Thanks for looking at it.

[norgan]

Like is said though how could we possibly prove that BFL is mining on EMC?

They've already admitted to it. It's in the court record, straight from BFL's lawyer.

Fair enough. I know they own EMC, that's pretty publicly known. I've not read any of the court stuff.

Seems like a huge mess to me! I feel sorry for everyone involved on both sides.

[YipYip]

Why would anyone be wasting time with a bfl single or any bfl 65 nm product right now? Aren't they losing money after electricity costs are factored in?

I could be wrong... if so please correct me.

I do have a 55gh single running. These days of course its pitiful, but its been running forever and used to do a lot better ... and I've just never bothered to unplug it!

Based on TODAY'S difficulty and TODAY's price 8000872135 / ~$450

I calculate it's still producing ~0.09 BTC per 30 days = ~$40.

@ 275W @ 24/7 @ 30 days my power cost is $0.064313 per KWH

Costs $12.73 per month to run.

Now. I did these calculations in just a few minutes and I could be GROSSLY mistaken... so if I am please correct me. All numbers are fairly approximate.

While it only makes yes, a bare pittance, it's still technically profitable? Of course this may (and will) quickly change as difficulty increases and at some point I will unplug it or lose money mining "fun" alt-coins.

For the record: I do not like BFL 1% and continue to marvel at their shipping delays which only become more impressive each day.

6 cents a k/w is the cheapest power I have seen ..Most of the rest of the world and most of teh US as fars as I understand pay btw 15-30 cents a k/w

SO this is why you are in profit ....you must be in washinton state or live next to a nuke plat to get 6 cents a kw