Mt Gox to liquidate coins

[jbrnt]

Auctioning off the btc in lots is a legal way of winding things up. I do not think it makes much of a difference to holders of gox coins. Price of btc is going to remain low anyway, holders can put them straight back into btc if they wanted to.

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[Nagle]

The bankruptcy trustee has announced there will be a creditors' meeting on July 23, 2014.  Probably in Tokyo. If you have a sizable amount owed you by Mt. Gox, you probably want to be represented there. That's the place where issues like "pay out Bitcoins or yen" get discussed.

That's three months away, allowing time for further investigation. I suspect more assets will turn up.

[DoomDumas]

My bet is that will have almost no effect on the market price.. 200k BTC is not that much, and if not sold in a hurry, like in hours, it could be a no-event at a price point of view..  We'll see !

[cech4204a]

My bet is that will have almost no effect on the market price.. 200k BTC is not that much, and if not sold in a hurry, like in hours, it could be a no-event at a price point of view..  We'll see !

Thats what i was trying to explain, it may not even have an effect, only positive effect off people getting their money back.

[dreamspark]

Good luck trying to buy 10k btc off exchange, you tried to buy 1k of them like that? well than keep your fingers off my posts trying to make things easier for me, you don't need to do it, for me, it has always been easy, and don't feel like a finance markets proffessor.

Yes you can buy 10k off exchange if you know the right people. There are people on this forum who have connections and are consultants for exactly these sorts of buys.

[cech4204a]

Good luck trying to buy 10k btc off exchange, you tried to buy 1k of them like that? well than keep your fingers off my posts trying to make things easier for me, you don't need to do it, for me, it has always been easy, and don't feel like a finance markets proffessor.

Yes you can buy 10k off exchange if you know the right people. There are people on this forum who have connections and are consultants for exactly these sorts of buys.

So you trust more some forum guys than exchange? good luck surviving with announcment to those guys that you have 5mill$ in your pocket

[dreamspark]

Good luck trying to buy 10k btc off exchange, you tried to buy 1k of them like that? well than keep your fingers off my posts trying to make things easier for me, you don't need to do it, for me, it has always been easy, and don't feel like a finance markets proffessor.

Yes you can buy 10k off exchange if you know the right people. There are people on this forum who have connections and are consultants for exactly these sorts of buys.

So you trust more some forum guys than exchange? good luck surviving with announcment to those guys that you have 5mill$ in your pocket

More some forum guys? Theres people on this forum who are public figures and many of them do deals off exchanges. Its okay I dont need to argue with you its not the point of the thread but buying large amounts of coins off exchange happens whether you want to believe it or not.

[fran2k]

I expect the bottom to be at around $200

I personally expect the price to drop to around wherever the coins are bought for, the people buying them are not going to sell them at a loss so I cant imagine going lower than whatever the cost price ends up being.

People sell at loss.

[freedombit]

There are some very important questions that need to be asked. Here are a few:

1) What are the actual assets and liabilities? For all we know, there are 50k creditors freaking out and hoping to get back their 200k Bitcoin - all of which can be returned if the 220k Bitcoin were in fact found. (Do you believe any of early announcements?)

2) How will the investigation be conducted, and who decides what assets and liabilities actually exist?

3) When will the sale(s) take place?

4) What sort of identification will depositors be required to provide in order to receive a share of the distribution? (This will be answered in time.)

5) How many depositors are willing to come forth and provide identification? This is touching to why this entire debacle happened.




BTW - There are creditors, and then there are depositors.

[traderash@aol.com]

The Coins are not going to be sold at auction or by any other means, PERIOD. "...the assets of the bankrupt entity will be managed and converted into cash..." It is well established that customer deposits are not assets of Gox; actually the opposite is true. Customer deposits are customer assets and LIABILITIES of Gox.

The Trustee has no authority to liquidate non Gox assets. To put it simply, the Trustee cannot "steal" customer assets in order to pay off Gox liabilities, which would be the same thing as stealing customer assets, then selling them with slippage, commissions, and garbage fees, then disbursing what remains back to the customers???

When you think about it, it is beyond illogical and is not what will happen.

If the Trustee attempts to unlawfully sell assets that don't belong to the entity that he has authority over, he would be liable and open to massive civil suits and this is not going to happen. This is not complicated "high finance."

Gox is international news and the world is watching, the last thing the Japanese government wants is to create some scandal, they media would eat it up. When the creditors meeting happens in July, this will be very thoroughly discussed and with 127,000 voices advising the Trustee of their wishes, it would be as close to impossible for him to go against them as you can get.

What we really should be discussing is how we are going to handle the group that is trying to buy Gox. As I understand, they have been speaking with the supervisor on a daily basis and are not disclosing anything of their discussions as far as I am aware.

I personally think it is a good idea, although I think that all of us with a financial interest should make sure we pay very close attention and start trying to negotiate our best deal with the investors now.

We need to nail them down and get them to commit to a certain course of action now. If we wait, we may be forced to be stuck with what ever deal they give us. Their position is that they do not want to make firm commitments because they do not know what the accounting is going to look like, which is completely understandable. However, there is nothing wrong with us throwing out about 10 hypotheticals that would cover almost all possible outcomes and then getting them to agree to certain terms based on those conditions.

They are putting a lot of effort into this deal and there are a lot of them and they deserve to be well compensated for their efforts and what they bring to the table, however, it is very important for us to start talking about how best to negotiate with them instead of worrying about coins being sold by the Trustee so he can give us fiat so we can buy our coins back nonsense.

If another couple hundred thousand BTC are found, after they buy Bitcoin for 1 BTC and we don't have a commitment from them on how those coins will be distributed/invested/whatever, we could be looking at paying a very high management fee to the new owners.

It is my understanding that they will be purchasing Gox, "subject to liabilities" and they intend to pay those liabilities. If they give us options for stock, it won't include voting rights and management can run the company how they see fit, because they own it.

I can think of a dozen other things that I would like to have hammered out before we commit to blindly supporting the buyout, which is what I believe most of us have already done based solely on the fact that it is the best/only option we have at the present time.

I am interested to hear what you guys think about this and what our next steps should be.

[Hic et nunc]

Here ( https://www.mtgox.com/img/pdf/20140228-announcement_eng.pdf ) MtGox recognizes its assets, before the appearance 200.000BTC. This also they will have to distribute among creditors (all of us). That means they have to pay back about 60% of the deposit to us. I think it should be so. Right?

[dreamspark]

The Coins are not going to be sold at auction or by any other means, PERIOD. "...the assets of the bankrupt entity will be managed and converted into cash..." It is well established that customer deposits are not assets of Gox; actually the opposite is true. Customer deposits are customer assets and LIABILITIES of Gox.

The Trustee has no authority to liquidate non Gox assets. To put it simply, the Trustee cannot "steal" customer assets in order to pay off Gox liabilities, which would be the same thing as stealing customer assets, then selling them with slippage, commissions, and garbage fees, then disbursing what remains back to the customers???

When you think about it, it is beyond illogical and is not what will happen.

If the Trustee attempts to unlawfully sell assets that don't belong to the entity that he has authority over, he would be liable and open to massive civil suits and this is not going to happen. This is not complicated "high finance."

Gox is international news and the world is watching, the last thing the Japanese government wants is to create some scandal, they media would eat it up. When the creditors meeting happens in July, this will be very thoroughly discussed and with 127,000 voices advising the Trustee of their wishes, it would be as close to impossible for him to go against them as you can get.

What we really should be discussing is how we are going to handle the group that is trying to buy Gox. As I understand, they have been speaking with the supervisor on a daily basis and are not disclosing anything of their discussions as far as I am aware.

I personally think it is a good idea, although I think that all of us with a financial interest should make sure we pay very close attention and start trying to negotiate our best deal with the investors now.

We need to nail them down and get them to commit to a certain course of action now. If we wait, we may be forced to be stuck with what ever deal they give us. Their position is that they do not want to make firm commitments because they do not know what the accounting is going to look like, which is completely understandable. However, there is nothing wrong with us throwing out about 10 hypotheticals that would cover almost all possible outcomes and then getting them to agree to certain terms based on those conditions.

They are putting a lot of effort into this deal and there are a lot of them and they deserve to be well compensated for their efforts and what they bring to the table, however, it is very important for us to start talking about how best to negotiate with them instead of worrying about coins being sold by the Trustee so he can give us fiat so we can buy our coins back nonsense.

If another couple hundred thousand BTC are found, after they buy Bitcoin for 1 BTC and we don't have a commitment from them on how those coins will be distributed/invested/whatever, we could be looking at paying a very high management fee to the new owners.

It is my understanding that they will be purchasing Gox, "subject to liabilities" and they intend to pay those liabilities. If they give us options for stock, it won't include voting rights and management can run the company how they see fit, because they own it.

I can think of a dozen other things that I would like to have hammered out before we commit to blindly supporting the buyout, which is what I believe most of us have already done based solely on the fact that it is the best/only option we have at the present time.

I am interested to hear what you guys think about this and what our next steps should be.

You should head over to the #mtgox-talk IRC channel and you will see an answer to a lot of those questions including the new proposal from OKcoin to buy it.

In short though the reason the liquidator can sell the coins is because he is the creditors representative and so is selling his own assets so to speak its all legal and was explain by an attorney who has been in contact with Mark, Sunlot (savegox.com) and Okcoin. The liquidator or bankruptcy trustee is appointed by the court to represent the creditors of Gox.

[OhShei8e]

I am interested to hear what you guys think about this and what our next steps should be.

Join us:

https://www.olivere.de/mailman/listinfo/gox-self-help

[OhShei8e]

In short though the reason the liquidator can sell the coins is because he is the creditors representative and so is selling his own assets so to speak its all legal and was explain by an attorney who has been in contact with Mark, Sunlot (savegox.com) and Okcoin. The liquidator or bankruptcy trustee is appointed by the court to represent the creditors of Gox.

The court must ensure a fair trial. If it is not capable of this, it is useless. To mix the remaining assets is the stupidest possible solution with major drawbacks for most debtees. A relatively fair solution would be to treat Bitcoin and FIAT assets separately and to pay an appropriate compensation to the respective debtees. Before, however, the court must determine whether or not Gox delayed filing of insolvency. This is very important for a proper procedure. If so then all trades from a certain date are irrelevant. This could, for example, be the 7th of February.

Any other approach I think is debatable. Thus, another court has to deal with it then.

[mezzomix]

I hope that is a misinterpretation. Those coins are customer funds and not working capital of MtGox. Selling those recently found BTC means that our BTC are stolen again.  

[dreamspark]

In short though the reason the liquidator can sell the coins is because he is the creditors representative and so is selling his own assets so to speak its all legal and was explain by an attorney who has been in contact with Mark, Sunlot (savegox.com) and Okcoin. The liquidator or bankruptcy trustee is appointed by the court to represent the creditors of Gox.

The court must ensure a fair trial. If it is not capable of this, it is useless. To mix the remaining assets is the stupidest possible solution with major drawbacks for most debtees. A relatively fair solution would be to treat Bitcoin and FIAT assets separately and to pay an appropriate compensation to the respective debtees. Before, however, the court must determine whether or not Gox delayed filing of insolvency. This is very important for a proper procedure. If so then all trades from a certain date are irrelevant. This could, for example, be the 7th of February.

Any other approach I think is debatable. Thus, another court has to deal with it then.

Every court is supposed to ensure a fair trial, how are you to determine that this one isn't? And then how would you go about getting another court involved.

  I agree with this and in particular the delaying of filing of their insolvency, if thats the case it could get very interesting for trades to be rolled back for a number of reasons. The first one that springs to mind is Bitcoin Builder. Yes I know it shouldn't be considered and people using it were doing so at their own risk but people walked away with real BTC for their gox BTC so that put that side of things in a very sticky situation as far as rolling back trades goes. This is also true for people who sold coins via internal transfer without the use of BB. If I sent 100BTC to someones Gox account in exchange for them sending me 30 real BTC after the roll back date, if everything is rolled back I would then have the 100 Gox BTC back in my account as well as walking off with the 30 real BTC.

[OhShei8e]

Every court is supposed to ensure a fair trial, how are you to determine that this one isn't? And then how would you go about getting another court involved.

Because they violate my rights? Complaints? A sale of the coins has far-reaching consequences. Who buys and at what price? Normally such assets will be sold off during an auctions.
Should I then buy my own coins back? Really? All I want is just my remaining coins. The FIAT must be taxed. The sale results in a huge loss for me. An additional and unnecessary loss.
For what? Who would have an advantage? That is the question.

I agree with this and in particular the delaying of filing of their insolvency, if thats the case it could get very interesting for trades to be rolled back for a number of reasons. The first one that springs to mind is Bitcoin Builder. Yes I know it shouldn't be considered and people using it were doing so at their own risk but people walked away with real BTC for their gox BTC so that put that side of things in a very sticky situation as far as rolling back trades goes. This is also true for people who sold coins via internal transfer without the use of BB. If I sent 100BTC to someones Gox account in exchange for them sending me 30 real BTC after the roll back date, if everything is rolled back I would then have the 100 Gox BTC back in my account as well as walking off with the 30 real BTC.

Good point. BB was/is the weirdest thing ever. Gox had obvious problems. The delaying of filing an insolvency became more and more evident to the end. But on BB was still action as Gox already had applied for insolvency. And BB made ​​money with this. How can this be classified? I really do not know.

[DrApricot]

This Tokyo bankruptcy court appears to be completely in over its head. There has never been a bk like this one before with so many tens of thousands of foreign bitcoin depositors--and with so much money at stake.

Also, Mt. Gox's bank, Mizuho, one of Japan's biggest, is mixed up in this. It is being sued by MG customers in the U.S. and Canada. $27 million in bank deposits are still missing, and someone in that bank has got a pretty good idea where these funds are right now.

According to the Japanese government, business leaders met yesterday and "emphasized the necessity of boosting foreign direct investment in the country, as it has been mired in deflation for nearly two decades amid weak domestic demand."

http://www.4-traders.com/SUMITOMO-MITSUI-FINANCIAL-6496212/news/Sumitomo-Mitsui-Financial--Business-leaders-ask-govt-to-take-steps-to-boost-foreign-investment-18328461/

The article continues that the business leaders feel "Prime Minister Shinzo Abe's administration has to work to enhance the attractiveness of Japan as an investment destination."

This whole Mt. Gox mess isn't helping with the "attractiveness" of investing in Japan. 127,000 pissed-off bitcoin investors can give Japan and it's banking industry a black eye for years to come.

If the Prime Mister's Administration really wants to show some leadership, they would clean this up. China has had to do much the same thing in bailing out its shadow banking industry. Interestingly, China's bailout was for 1/2 $billion--roughly the same amount needed to make Mt. Gox's investors whole.

[dreamspark]

Are you insinuating that Japan should consider reimbursing customers of Gox with state funds? That sounds asinine.

[bakada]

Are you insinuating that Japan should consider reimbursing customers of Gox with state funds? That sounds asinine.

ya, I had a good giggle at that also....