Bitcoin Forum
December 03, 2016, 02:32:09 AM *
News: To be able to use the next phase of the beta forum software, please ensure that your email address is correct/functional.
 
   Home   Help Search Donate Login Register  
Pages: [1] 2 »  All
  Print  
Author Topic: Counterfeit money on Silk Road?  (Read 11779 times)
sudev
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 19



View Profile
January 14, 2012, 11:53:28 AM
 #1

Just out of curiosity, why is the sale of counterfeit money prohibited on Silk Road? Does anyone know?
Advertised sites are not endorsed by the Bitcoin Forum. They may be unsafe, untrustworthy, or illegal in your jurisdiction. Advertise here.
notme
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1526


View Profile
January 14, 2012, 11:56:31 AM
 #2

Just out of curiosity, why is the sale of counterfeit money prohibited on Silk Road? Does anyone know?

They don't want to get bitcoin traders involved in an infinite money loop?  Traders have a hard enough time with scammers, we don't need counterfeit currency floating around the community too.


https://www.bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf
While no idea is perfect, some ideas are useful.
12jh3odyAAaR2XedPKZNCR4X4sebuotQzN
notme
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1526


View Profile
January 14, 2012, 12:02:58 PM
 #3

They don't want to get bitcoin traders involved in an infinite money loop?  Traders have a hard enough time with scammers, we don't need counterfeit currency floating around the community too
What do you mean when you say an infinite money loop? How selling/buying counterfeit physical currency will create an infinite money loop?

On a different note, wouldn't it be a great way to destabilize a bit the fiat currencies and turn the attention of the masses to Bitcoin? I know it's sounds a bit evil, but the fascinating thing about Bitcoin is that it's absolutely possible! Smiley

Ok, not infinite, since supply is limited.  But still, people would buy it with BTC then send it to BTC for cash services.  We don't need to actively tear down fiat currencies, just step to the side as they fall under their own weight.

https://www.bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf
While no idea is perfect, some ideas are useful.
12jh3odyAAaR2XedPKZNCR4X4sebuotQzN
notme
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1526


View Profile
January 14, 2012, 12:17:19 PM
 #4

I still don't get it, why is it moral to sell drugs and it's 'immoral' (or more dangerously) to sell counterfeit money?

Drugs only hurt the purchaser, counterfeit money hurts others.

https://www.bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf
While no idea is perfect, some ideas are useful.
12jh3odyAAaR2XedPKZNCR4X4sebuotQzN
ThomasV
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1722



View Profile WWW
January 14, 2012, 12:26:30 PM
 #5

I still don't get it, why is it moral to sell drugs and it's 'immoral' (or more dangerously) to sell counterfeit money?

Drugs only hurt the purchaser, counterfeit money hurts others.

When used properly, guns hurt others, not the purchaser...

Electrum: the convenience of a web wallet, without the risks
notme
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1526


View Profile
January 14, 2012, 12:28:04 PM
 #6

I still don't get it, why is it moral to sell drugs and it's 'immoral' (or more dangerously) to sell counterfeit money?

Drugs only hurt the purchaser, counterfeit money hurts others.

When used properly, guns hurt others, not the purchaser...

When used properly, guns hurt animals, not the purchaser...

I've used many guns in my life and I've never hurt another human with one.

https://www.bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf
While no idea is perfect, some ideas are useful.
12jh3odyAAaR2XedPKZNCR4X4sebuotQzN
notme
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1526


View Profile
January 14, 2012, 12:35:58 PM
 #7

Drugs only hurt the purchaser, counterfeit money hurts others.
How exactly? May sound silly, but it's actually hard to foresee the exact effect of spreading counterfeit money around!

If it is discovered as counterfeit, whoever has it loses.  They're like hot potatoes unless they are indistinguishable from the legit stuff.

https://www.bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf
While no idea is perfect, some ideas are useful.
12jh3odyAAaR2XedPKZNCR4X4sebuotQzN
notme
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1526


View Profile
January 14, 2012, 12:42:56 PM
 #8

If it is discovered as counterfeit, whoever has it loses.  They're like hot potatoes unless they are indistinguishable from the legit stuff.

You would be shocked to see some counterfeit coins, indistinguishable from the original Wink As a matter of fact, you probably used a few without knowing it!

Well if that's the case, sell it as legit currency.  Besides, your clients may have to explain where it came from, and if it says "hey this is fake" then they will get thrown in jail since they knew it was fake.

https://www.bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf
While no idea is perfect, some ideas are useful.
12jh3odyAAaR2XedPKZNCR4X4sebuotQzN
predic
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 65


View Profile
January 14, 2012, 01:47:01 PM
 #9

Just out of curiosity, why is the sale of counterfeit money prohibited on Silk Road? Does anyone know?

if admin decide there, then it is question for admin, if community decide there (in some internet democracy), then it is question for community.
I am not there because I don't like that people must pay to become seller and I don't like that someone control me, it is the same with blackmarket. fee is okay after people make business, but to pay before you sold something, that's stupid.

I still don't get it, why is it moral to sell drugs and it's 'immoral' (or more dangerously) to sell counterfeit money?

that's control which I dislike, you can make your own website to sell what you want and advertise your website.

May sound silly, but it's actually hard to foresee the exact effect of spreading counterfeit money around!

cops hunt counterfeit money more than any drugs. logically, such money sabotage economy of the state while drugs damage individuals. therefore people who sell such money are caught very fast, even political police can be included in hunting.
but I am not against any business if the both sides accepted to do it, if there is no cheating. so, if silkroad is only for drugs, you should make "silkroad for all types of business".
anu
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 938


P2P Everything


View Profile WWW
January 14, 2012, 01:57:05 PM
 #10

Just out of curiosity, why is the sale of counterfeit money prohibited on Silk Road? Does anyone know?

My understanding of the ethics of Silkroad is a libertarian one: There is no such thing as a victimless crime. No one is victimized when dealing with drugs. But spreading fake money is a kind of fraud.

Zero Reserve - A distributed Bitcoin Exchange

Install - Getting Started - BitcoinTalk Thread - Github Source
memvola
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 896


View Profile
January 14, 2012, 02:22:42 PM
 #11

My understanding of the ethics of Silkroad is a libertarian one: There is no such thing as a victimless crime. No one is victimized when dealing with drugs. But spreading fake money is a kind of fraud.

No one is victimized you say? How about children that have a (hypothetical) direct access to hard drugs?

In my personal opinion, selling drugs like that is much worse than selling counterfeit money!

Can't agree with you there. Children can harm themselves in countless ingenious ways. How about prohibiting glass? And families with infants shall be prohibited from living higher than the first floor...

Also, cars can be used to harm others too, no? Sorry for the banal example.

Counterfeit money is an ugly thing, not only because it can be harmful (anything can be), but also by nature it awards swindlers and punishes trustful people. Even guns are more neutral than that.
anu
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 938


P2P Everything


View Profile WWW
January 14, 2012, 02:36:03 PM
 #12

My understanding of the ethics of Silkroad is a libertarian one: There is no such thing as a victimless crime. No one is victimized when dealing with drugs. But spreading fake money is a kind of fraud.

No one is victimized you say? How about children that have a (hypothetical) direct access to hard drugs?

In my personal opinion, selling drugs like that is much worse than selling counterfeit money!

As you say, it's hypothetical. Kids who are on the needle are not likely to have the knowledge required to buy on Silkroad. No one denies that children should not be considered fully responsible for themselves and that there should be controls, however.

It is the war on drugs itself that causes the misery. The government is to blame. If dealing with drugs were legal but regulated, it'd be much easier to enforce access control, because it would kill off the mafia because adults would buy the legal stuff while drug stores would lose their license and get punished when selling to kids.

It's the same with the repression of sex in the US. Nowhere in the western world are so many child pregnancies and sexually transmitted diseases as in the US. Sometimes I think the US govt fully knows that and the results are actually desired.



Zero Reserve - A distributed Bitcoin Exchange

Install - Getting Started - BitcoinTalk Thread - Github Source
anu
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 938


P2P Everything


View Profile WWW
January 14, 2012, 02:38:14 PM
 #13

If you sell drugs and guns the DEA will go after you. If you sell counterfeit money, the Secret Service will go after you...


As I understand, selling drugs in Thailand is like playing Russian Roulette. Gives you a real kick  Wink

Zero Reserve - A distributed Bitcoin Exchange

Install - Getting Started - BitcoinTalk Thread - Github Source
LoupGaroux
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 420



View Profile
January 14, 2012, 03:09:17 PM
 #14

Saddam Hussein released several billion dollars worth of counterfeit currency into the wild, much of it some of the most sophisticated Russian produced fakes ever seen. It did nothing to devalue fiat. Silk Road could not transact enough currency to make it worthwhile, and every merchant on SR would be at risk for receiving the fakes and then end up stuck with no value for the products they sell.

Not a very effective idea.

54Gh/s bASIC Bitcoin Mining Devices
Pre-Order Yours Today!     
Only $1069.99 ! @ http://www.BitcoinASIC.com


Look^^ I'm selling my soul too!
anu
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 938


P2P Everything


View Profile WWW
January 14, 2012, 03:43:53 PM
 #15

Don't know why you guys are all so against the idea! You (as much as me) hate fiat! How come you call the killing of a less efficient, faker and weaker currency immoral? Huh

Because it's cheating. If someone sells me a Picasso I expect to receive a painting Picasso himself painted. If someone sells a EUR 10 bill, I expect it was printed in the official print shops, not in North Korea. What is so difficult to understand about fraud?

Zero Reserve - A distributed Bitcoin Exchange

Install - Getting Started - BitcoinTalk Thread - Github Source
anu
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 938


P2P Everything


View Profile WWW
January 14, 2012, 04:52:45 PM
 #16

Because it's cheating. If someone sells me a Picasso I expect to receive a painting Picasso himself painted. If someone sells a EUR 10 bill, I expect it was printed in the official print shops, not in North Korea. What is so difficult to understand about fraud?

But you're not holding fiat to yourself, like you would with a Picasso. Instead, you're just passing it further - you spend it. I don't see how it would hurt the average Joe!

And again, I'm talking about really qualitative stuff here, mainly coins, that are not easy to spot at all, maybe even impossible! Do you understand that coins are minted by people - not by aliens, and that they can be easily reproduced 1:1 at a tiny fraction of their actual price? It's the distribution that is the real problem (or at least it was until now)..

I can't help you if you can't spot the problem in your argument yourself. It really doesn't matter whether your molecular manufacturing device is so good that you can create an atomically precise facsimile. It's still fake and it is not what your counter party expects from you. You don't live up to your part of the deal.

Zero Reserve - A distributed Bitcoin Exchange

Install - Getting Started - BitcoinTalk Thread - Github Source
memvola
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 896


View Profile
January 14, 2012, 04:54:01 PM
 #17

Counterfeit money is an ugly thing, not only because it can be harmful (anything can be), but also by nature it awards swindlers and punishes trustful people. Even guns are more neutral than that.

I disagree. If fiat itself permits to be physically reproduced, it's not the counterfeiters fault! And this would only punish speculative banks and governments - the only real ugly things.

Nope, it would only harm us. If counterfeit banknotes became a real problem, it would help them push centralized electronic payment methods, cheques, etc. They would gladly destroy cash if they could, and they definitely will in the not too distant future.
oscer
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 73


View Profile WWW
January 14, 2012, 04:58:48 PM
 #18

I would go on the note that a Destabilization of normal currency could actually hurt bitcoin .

Xrnetworks.com Web Hosting
anu
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 938


P2P Everything


View Profile WWW
January 14, 2012, 05:04:09 PM
 #19


I disagree. If fiat itself permits to be physically reproduced, it's not the counterfeiters fault! And this would only punish speculative banks and governments - the only real ugly things.

This is a twisted argument. Sounds to me like: It's the woman's fault that she got raped. Why did she dress sexy?

In case you didn't notice: Paper money is not what speculators use. I believe there are 8 Trillion Euros but only 280 Billion Paper Euros. I guess the numbers for USD are similar. Fake money hits Joe Average, not George Soros.

Zero Reserve - A distributed Bitcoin Exchange

Install - Getting Started - BitcoinTalk Thread - Github Source
oscer
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 73


View Profile WWW
January 15, 2012, 05:24:09 AM
 #20


I disagree. If fiat itself permits to be physically reproduced, it's not the counterfeiters fault! And this would only punish speculative banks and governments - the only real ugly things.

This is a twisted argument. Sounds to me like: It's the woman's fault that she got raped. Why did she dress sexy?

In case you didn't notice: Paper money is not what speculators use. I believe there are 8 Trillion Euros but only 280 Billion Paper Euros. I guess the numbers for USD are similar. Fake money hits Joe Average, not George Soros.

I think fake money hits everyone, but the thing is, the Governments print out more and more faster than can be counterfeited so its really moot.


Yea not to mention they remove the counterfeit currency from the money pool immediately

Xrnetworks.com Web Hosting
Pages: [1] 2 »  All
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Sponsored by , a Bitcoin-accepting VPN.
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!