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Author Topic: Is Bitcoin just a stepping stone to something better?  (Read 5537 times)
jubalix
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May 05, 2014, 12:16:29 PM
 #41

More and more, Bitcoin looks like a Pink Sheet stock. Trading continues, even though there's no asset value behind it.

The fundamental problem with Bitcoin is that unidirectional money transfers to remote anonymous parties are the con man's dream. Most "Bitcoin enterpreneurs" seem to be con men. Over half the Bitcoin exchanges have gone bust, even though that should be a low-risk business. Most of the sellers of mining hardware seem to be unable to reliably make, sell, and deliver ordered hardware. The "Bitcoin stock markets" are a joke, and the "Bitcoin Ponzis" are just embarassing.

Bitcoin has become the clown car of money because of all this.

The underlying technology isn't bad. We're about 2/3 of the way there to something that might work. The first generation of crypto-currency was Chaum's DigiCash in the early 1990s. This had protection against double-spending, like Bitcoin, but it relied on a centralized ledger system. Bitcoin is basically DigiCash with a distributed ledger, the block chain. DigiCash failed because of Cham's differences with his backers, and because it was too early. 

With Bitcoin, you still have to trust the receiving party when you order something. From recent experience, that doesn't work. The protocol could in theory be extended to support escrow and arbitration, but it hasn't been.  That's the remaining 1/3 of the problem.

What we have now is too slimeball-friendly.

pretty good analysis to some extent, but there is huge value behind btc. It can replace 50% of all banking infrastructure, That's worth a trillion or so per year.

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May 05, 2014, 06:22:29 PM
 #42

I I really don't want bitcoin to be the steppingstone.   it already has taken the lead in the economy.  And this is great because it can lead to more businesses and more jobs

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May 05, 2014, 09:02:42 PM
 #43

More and more, Bitcoin looks like a Pink Sheet stock. Trading continues, even though there's no asset value behind it.

The fundamental problem with Bitcoin is that unidirectional money transfers to remote anonymous parties are the con man's dream. Most "Bitcoin enterpreneurs" seem to be con men. Over half the Bitcoin exchanges have gone bust, even though that should be a low-risk business. Most of the sellers of mining hardware seem to be unable to reliably make, sell, and deliver ordered hardware. The "Bitcoin stock markets" are a joke, and the "Bitcoin Ponzis" are just embarassing.

Bitcoin has become the clown car of money because of all this.

The underlying technology isn't bad. We're about 2/3 of the way there to something that might work. The first generation of crypto-currency was Chaum's DigiCash in the early 1990s. This had protection against double-spending, like Bitcoin, but it relied on a centralized ledger system. Bitcoin is basically DigiCash with a distributed ledger, the block chain. DigiCash failed because of Cham's differences with his backers, and because it was too early.  

With Bitcoin, you still have to trust the receiving party when you order something. From recent experience, that doesn't work. The protocol could in theory be extended to support escrow and arbitration, but it hasn't been.  That's the remaining 1/3 of the problem.

What we have now is too slimeball-friendly.

I disagree that it's too slimeball friendly or that the only entrepreneurs are con men looking to skirt the law.

A large part of the appeal for people is the reality that it can't be taxed or controlled or outlawed or anything else and go away just because some agency is threatened by it. I'm not a criminal and most people here aren't either, and to have an alternative means of currency with a secure value is a welcome relief. I can probably speak for a ton of people when I say that if I earn X amount of money, no government body has any rights to it without my consent anymore than they can take anything else...and the only time they do that is when they're abusing the limits of their power anyway...or get too threatened by the reality that people will choose to not hand it over when there is a viable alternative. And I don't want them touching it. I don't even want them aware of it.

I think people tend to forget what is real here.

We elect representatives to represent us and our wishes for our nation.
Their job is to honor those wishes, do the job, get paid and butt out.

Instead, they lie through their teeth, con people, get elected, do whatever the fuck they want to do, abuse their positions, abuse their power, and treat those they're supposed to represent like criminals - can't speak out to them during a speech, else the goon squad hauls you out, that douchebag bush fired up "free speech zones" 2 or 3 miles away from anywhere he was because he's a fucking psychopath, can't freely enter their offices without being thrown out or jailed, can't call them up to discuss policy because they don't answer and then condescend if you catch them off guard, and you can't vote them in or out because the whole thing is rigged...all they while they make back door deals that rip off the citizens, start wars that bankrupt the entire nation, lead into further and further debt - all this shit is what is reality here and now.

They are the criminals and of course they're not going to like the idea of bitcoin coming along giving anyone a choice because they know anyone who is sane, rational, and intelligent will choose against everything they are until they implode - which is exactly what needs to happen.

As long as bitcoin is being traded at all, I don't give one rat's ass what any government declares, whether they outlaw it or not, fuck them. They had one job and becoming lord of the people is not it.

This is the one foundational thread that finally makes nonviolent revolution actually possible....so if Joe Blow wants to buy porn pot and pills through some back channel, I don't care, because chances are on the order of 100% that Joe Blow first tried all those legal channels and faced nothing but bullshit red tape, loopholes, obnoxious regulations, high costs, taxes and a slew of other things just to end up denied, declined or blocked. So they took it to the underground market with a secure payment alternative with value to trade for products or services.

Most everything we do anymore is a crime.

The governments, the corporations, and the bankers are the real criminals.

And because of it, bitcoin isn't going anywhere...and the more people understand its true "disruptive" power, the more they will flock in droves, cash out their USDs or other currencies and trade out.

You say "anti government" like that's a bad thing...

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May 06, 2014, 01:19:32 AM
 #44

How is it possible that Bitcoin is a stepping stone, when the code is open source and can change? It's not stuck and frozen in time, it can evolve, right?
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May 06, 2014, 04:08:22 AM
 #45

All technology is exactly as you described, when viewed on a long enough timescale.


Remember Aaron Swartz, a 26 year old computer scientist who died defending the free flow of information.
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May 06, 2014, 04:50:45 AM
 #46

I think that Bitcoin isn't a steppingstone, but it is the foundation for economic development in the future.
Using Bitcoins abolishes the role of middlemen and it gives a chance to the economy be a self-regulating system.
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May 06, 2014, 05:30:48 AM
 #47

How is it possible that Bitcoin is a stepping stone, when the code is open source and can change? It's not stuck and frozen in time, it can evolve, right?

Bitcoin has a huge advantage, but it is possible for something better to come along.
Also, if the Bitcoin Foundation continues to anger enough people, then our movement could (possibly) have an epic split into two or more projects.

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May 06, 2014, 06:02:23 AM
 #48

How is it possible that Bitcoin is a stepping stone, when the code is open source and can change? It's not stuck and frozen in time, it can evolve, right?

Bitcoin has a huge advantage, but it is possible for something better to come along.
Also, if the Bitcoin Foundation continues to anger enough people, then our movement could (possibly) have an epic split into two or more projects.

So you've basically outlined at least one of the projects that major antagonists to Bitcoin would pursue - divide and conquer. Some kind of agent provocateur that discredits the foundation or a few.
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May 06, 2014, 08:40:57 AM
 #49

How is it possible that Bitcoin is a stepping stone, when the code is open source and can change? It's not stuck and frozen in time, it can evolve, right?

Bitcoin code is technically easy to change, but if the changes are so big as to require a hard fork, many miners may not agree to change, and hence those code changes won't become effective.

On the other hand, new crypto currencies can build in the necessary modifications and then start their operations, or add the changes later when there are not so many miners yet. The more miners, the harder it is to get them all to agree to upgrade to the newest code. Miners are those who define the network operations and they decide what will fly and what will not. Bitcoin's being the first in this market is both advantage and disadvantage, the disadvantage is the code changes are too conservative and slow compared to other coins.

If people need such changes that a) Bitcoin developers might not agree to implement or b) miners will not agree to accept, then people could switch to another crypto currency. Actually this diversification has been going on for a while, top 5-10 cryptos from coinmarketcap if you're interested. Bitcoin is still the leader, because it still performs the basic function of relatively secure money transfer and store of value, and that's good enough for most people, for now.
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May 06, 2014, 09:41:37 AM
 #50

gamersglory, by the sound of it you want a communist coin. One with nearly equal value for all.

I cannot see it becoming valuable. Why would I invest in a coin that changes quantity in my wallet based on the market value? Today I have 20 commicoin that is worth $200 each. But tomorrow I have 10 commicoin worth $400 each. Where will this coin get value?
Then interest for mining? Isn't that the same thing as mining for coins? If you mine you get more coin, if you don't mine you don't get more coins. Based on the amount you contribute to the network is how much more coin you get. What's the difference between that and the interest you suggest? It seems again you're thinking that because someone mines, no matter how little, they get equal based on the speed of the network. So if the network speed is 1ph you get .5 coin, if the network hash is 2ph you get 1coin.

I don't see any of these things working, but you should create an alt coin with these features and see how it catches on.

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May 06, 2014, 12:52:32 PM
 #51

Bitcoin might get successor at some point but definitely it wont get thrown away. I expect it would rather be slow evolution then sudden revolution.

When it comes to technology when something get outdated it is never forgotten. Everyday nowadays devices uses same cheeps that were used by old computers. Nothing get wasted. Bitcoin might be value determine in future, just as we use dollar right now.

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May 06, 2014, 01:16:39 PM
 #52

Bitcoin might get successor at some point but definitely it wont get thrown away. I expect it would rather be slow evolution then sudden revolution.

When it comes to technology when something get outdated it is never forgotten. Everyday nowadays devices uses same cheeps that were used by old computers. Nothing get wasted. Bitcoin might be value determine in future, just as we use dollar right now.

I know this might not be the same comparison but remeber yahoo was one of the most popular search engines before google stepped in and look how fast they gotten to the top just by implementing a new concept to the search engine.  I thought yahoo was going to be on the top and it never did happen, now yahoo is on there knees.

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May 06, 2014, 02:43:49 PM
 #53


More and more, Bitcoin looks like a Pink Sheet stock. Trading continues, even though there's no asset value behind it.

The fundamental problem with Bitcoin is that unidirectional money transfers to remote anonymous parties are the con man's dream. Most "Bitcoin enterpreneurs" seem to be con men. Over half the Bitcoin exchanges have gone bust, even though that should be a low-risk business. Most of the sellers of mining hardware seem to be unable to reliably make, sell, and deliver ordered hardware. The "Bitcoin stock markets" are a joke, and the "Bitcoin Ponzis" are just embarassing.

Bitcoin has become the clown car of money because of all this.

The underlying technology isn't bad. We're about 2/3 of the way there to something that might work. The first generation of crypto-currency was Chaum's DigiCash in the early 1990s. This had protection against double-spending, like Bitcoin, but it relied on a centralized ledger system. Bitcoin is basically DigiCash with a distributed ledger, the block chain. DigiCash failed because of Cham's differences with his backers, and because it was too early. 

With Bitcoin, you still have to trust the receiving party when you order something. From recent experience, that doesn't work. The protocol could in theory be extended to support escrow and arbitration, but it hasn't been.  That's the remaining 1/3 of the problem.

What we have now is too slimeball-friendly.

nxt solves all this! Smiley and lots more!

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May 06, 2014, 02:46:54 PM
 #54

How is it possible that Bitcoin is a stepping stone, when the code is open source and can change? It's not stuck and frozen in time, it can evolve, right?

wrong... the bitcoin core devs have stated many times they wont change anything unless 100% necessary! so yes bitcoin will stay the way it is unless something comes along and threatens the protocol and demands a change to the protocol!

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May 06, 2014, 06:23:05 PM
 #55

How is it possible that Bitcoin is a stepping stone, when the code is open source and can change? It's not stuck and frozen in time, it can evolve, right?

wrong... the bitcoin core devs have stated many times they wont change anything unless 100% necessary! so yes bitcoin will stay the way it is unless something comes along and threatens the protocol and demands a change to the protocol!

Not true.  Was P2SH 100% necessary?  It is unlikely Bitcoin will be changed for slight or trivial reasons but the idea it won't evolve is simply not based on history.
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May 06, 2014, 06:49:40 PM
 #56

I think Bitcoin is a stepping stone to a better Bitcoin in the future.   I think it will still be Bitcoin that survives, but it will be an evolved more advanced Bitcoin in the future...  We will probably look back at earlier generations of bitcoin like we look at the big square Tvs vs. the flat screens that are the norm now...
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May 06, 2014, 06:53:29 PM
 #57

How is it possible that Bitcoin is a stepping stone, when the code is open source and can change? It's not stuck and frozen in time, it can evolve, right?

wrong... the bitcoin core devs have stated many times they wont change anything unless 100% necessary! so yes bitcoin will stay the way it is unless something comes along and threatens the protocol and demands a change to the protocol!

I noticed from this talk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kIy2Fw9xjuk#t=819) Andreas says basically to paraphrase 'Once Bitcoin goes mainstream … it won't be able to change in 10 years' ... starting at around 21 minutes in the talk

However, he says after implementation of anonymous transactions in the core protocol - all other innovation and code should be added to layers above the core protocol
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May 07, 2014, 03:02:11 AM
 #58

The idea that Bitcoin is just the beginning for something better has been around for years now. Just look at all the alt coins being created every day. The problem is that 99% of these coins seem to be created simply for the purpose of making money for yourself, and fucking over someone else. It seems like every new alt coin has praised itself as the next coming of Jesus because it does something new, but if that was the case then why aren't they becoming big? Ok I won't lie, I don't really follow altcoins, but the only ones that I know of as actually being successful, resilient, and bringing something good to the table are Litecoin and Dogecoin, while the hundreds of other alt coins just seem to come and go, which suggests they are nothing more than schemes to make money off people by pump and dumping.

Having said that, I'll stick with Bitcoin because it not only has the resilience and infrastructure, and is also driven not just by the prospect of making money, but actually revolutionizing money and the exchange of wealth.

All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us.
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May 07, 2014, 05:27:28 AM
 #59

I have a hard time understanding how Bitcoin could be taken over very easily. Basically, we have programmers working on the code, and a huge active community of supports, long term holders, and miners. If there is some kind of threat - you'd think everyone would join together and support a fork or layer of innovation over bitcoin?

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May 07, 2014, 05:36:41 AM
 #60

I think Bitcoin is a stepping stone to a better Bitcoin in the future.   I think it will still be Bitcoin that survives, but it will be an evolved more advanced Bitcoin in the future...  We will probably look back at earlier generations of bitcoin like we look at the big square Tvs vs. the flat screens that are the norm now...

Recall reading that some goldman sachs investor said there are 30,000 developers in the Bitcoin sphere so their is definitely a strong chance that Bitcoin will be around in one forum or another how it shifts will vary though Smiley

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