ITech Labs Random Number Generator / Soft Swiss

[badjacks99]

hi, ive been playing quite a few casinos that run on the Soft swiss casino software. Instead of the having a provably fair system they insist its been verified and tested by this ITech Lab RNG. I wanted to know if anyone has any info on this. Is this a reputable company or just some bogus certificate? Some of these soft swiss casinos something feels a bit funny when it comes to being fair. Is there a way to prove that every spin/card is completely random?

[cwil]

iTech Labs claims to be ISO 17025 accredited.  This is the accreditation required for nearly any test and measurement lab and it is recognized internationally.  I'd want to see their accreditation, scope of accreditation, and audit records if I were doing business with them, as well as their method of calibration if they were willing to disclose it, but those are often trade secrets.  Assuming that's all in order, they've probably legitimately certified the SoftSwiss software.  In any case, nothing about this certification precludes SoftSwiss from implementing their RNG as a provably fair RNG, they just likely don't see any demand for it.  See wikipedia for an explanation of what IS 17025 is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO/IEC_17025.  SoftSwiss would likely be willing to provide a report of calibration for their software as well, but probably only to their customers.

The reason these turnkey online casinos have the certification is because it's required for non-bitcoin casinos due to regulation.  Additionally, having a working RNG says nothing about how it's used in their games.  Without disclosing how the game gets its result, as provably fair games must, it's unlikely that anyone could independently verify fairness.

[badjacks99]

cwil, thanks so much for the info you provided. it will be much harder for me to truly trust that these sites are indeed fair for the players. Some seem perfectly fair and other casinos feel on the rigged side. Again, thanks for the info.

[zolace]

Well a casino can switch the script and alter it at any given point or time.  Not very hard and one casino already got caught doing that.

[badjacks99]

yeah thats what has me worried. even though a seemingly legit company has approved a certain casino is legitimate during a test course of the site, to me doesn't mean they couldn't just alter results as they wish. i wonder if this Itech lab does random checkups on these sites or if its just a one time deal. Can you tell me zolace how this casino your speaking of was discovered to be cheating?

[softswiss austria]

yeah thats what has me worried. even though a seemingly legit company has approved a certain casino is legitimate during a test course of the site, to me doesn't mean they couldn't just alter results as they wish. i wonder if this Itech lab does random checkups on these sites or if its just a one time deal. Can you tell me zolace how this casino your speaking of was discovered to be cheating?

Dear badjacks99, since we work not only with bitcoin casinos but we were first only fiat money casino software we have build all our RNG and games mathematics according to international rules. iTechLabs is one of the famous and reputable laboratory for online and offline gaming testing. However, we look forward and we are fascinating about Bitcoin. Few weeks ago we launched new client-casino with provably fair technology. This is BitStars. As we don't own any casinos we are taking care of fairness and client (operators under our software) responsibility and it is very important for us that all players that play our games and use our platform feel safe and sure about security and fairness. However, some times there are customers that want to try to cheat and ask us about this but we are strength against such clients and we shut them off as soon as we see they are trying to "play" with users.   

Our slot games are programmed to have 97-98% of pay out range. All table and card games are programmed according international rules and standards.

We are an Austrian based company working on the market  from 2008. We think that bitcoin and provably fair gaming will lead the gaming market in several years. I fully agree that PF is the best way for fair gaming.

If you wnat to find out more about us or our system, you are welcome to contact us directly.

P.S. In May we will offer our client-casinos Live Dealer from Ezugi and Slots from Austrian Games Supplier Amatic.

[cwil]

Softswiss,

It's great to see your company reaching out the the players here and that you've taken the initiative to incorporate provably fair methodology in to your software.  I'm sure many people are excited to see Amatic games make an appearance in the Bitcoin gaming world as well.  I hope Dragon's Gold is one of games you're including.  With regards to your software's ISO 17025 certification, are you able provide a copy of your software's report of calibration and iTech's scope of accreditation?

[badjacks99]

Yes, thank you for coming on here and clearing some things up. Looking forward to the provably fair system.

[badjacks99]

Just found something interesting on the Grandecoin.com Website about soft swiss software.

"Unfortunately we have had to shut down the casino due to fraud from our software developers SoftSwiss.com and its owner Ivan Montik.

If you see a casino with a softswiss logo please be VERY carefull as the games may crash and your BTC may disapear. We had tried to get them to fix this bug over and over again they would simple ignore us. They had also stolen our images and website design and sold it OTHER clients. This is very disturbing, shady and very bad that they would do that to clients.

Unfortunately because of this we have to shut down temporarily while we setup a new casino software."

That doesn't seem good, careful with your coins guys....

[Farmer17]

Just found something interesting on the Grandecoin.com Website about soft swiss software.

"Unfortunately we have had to shut down the casino due to fraud from our software developers SoftSwiss.com and its owner Ivan Montik.

If you see a casino with a softswiss logo please be VERY carefull as the games may crash and your BTC may disapear. We had tried to get them to fix this bug over and over again they would simple ignore us. They had also stolen our images and website design and sold it OTHER clients. This is very disturbing, shady and very bad that they would do that to clients.

Unfortunately because of this we have to shut down temporarily while we setup a new casino software."

That doesn't seem good, careful with your coins guys....

Interesting. Softswiss, do you have any rebuttal to this? 

[softswiss austria]

There are good and bad customers and there are fraud and criminals. With such customers we talk only in Austrian court according to our agreement.

Short Story:

A family couple Tara and William Bills ordered our bitcoin casino software. They signed the agreement and made a prepayment (initial requirements to start working with us). We did design for their brand, they accepted it and confirmed they wanted to launch. After the casino went live on March 14th, Tara and William discovered that one of the casinos powered by SoftSwiss is using the same picture for the banner. Indeed, our designers accidentally used the same picture twice. Tara and William were very upset and accused SoftSwiss of fraud. They demanded to leave their design as it is but change it at another client’s website. We fully accepted that it was our mistake and negotiated change of banners with the other client. So the issue seemed to be peacefully resolved.  We sent the final setup payment invoice (according to our conditions, once the casino goes live, the customer should pay the second part of setup fee. This is a common approach in the gaming industry incl. the biggest software suppliers).

The casino was operating at full speed, however, the invoice remained unpaid. In the middle of April, one month after the official go live date, we kindly reminded the customer about the unpaid invoice. The reaction was very surprising: Will and Tara claimed that the casino was not yet launched and that they had a full list of things to be corrected.  After some tough negotiations, we changed their client manager to make sure that further communication goes smoother and agreed to implement all issues that they claimed to be bugs.  Moreover, we granted them another month of free technical support.

The following two weeks I only heard good things from Tara and William. However, the payment was still open. When we reminded about the invoice again, Tara and William said that our software was of poor quality and they were thinking to move to another software provider. They couldn’t explain what exactly was wrong about the software, though. All they kept saying was that we had stolen the design. Seeing no other ways to peacefully settle the conflict, we decided to close the website and sent a 3-day notification letter asking to inform their players about close date and ask them to cash out all of their deposits from the casino. All they did instead was cashing out all players’ money to their (Will and Tara’s) wallet.  We closed the site and informed all casino players about the situation.

Tara and William keep spreading defamation on SoftSwiss. No idea what they are trying to achieve, but their problem is quite obvious: after one month of operating their casino they realized that it requires certain marketing efforts and investments which they were not coping well with. In order to avoid their payment obligations, they decided to attack.

We have all email, skype and system logs to show the real situation, but the main document is our agreement. According to our lawyer,  at least four agreement statements were broken by the customer. That’s enough to bring them to the court, leave alone all the slander. 

We’ve never had similar problems with other customers and I wish I could know what kind of people GrandeCoin were before the agreement was signed.

[softswiss austria]

Softswiss,

It's great to see your company reaching out the the players here and that you've taken the initiative to incorporate provably fair methodology in to your software.  I'm sure many people are excited to see Amatic games make an appearance in the Bitcoin gaming world as well.  I hope Dragon's Gold is one of games you're including.  With regards to your software's ISO 17025 certification, are you able provide a copy of your software's report of calibration and iTech's scope of accreditation?

As I posted earlier one of our customer has already PF games.

Unfortunatly we can't publish this information on public, usually the operator can order such services also by iTechLabs or several other supplier on monthly basis. We run 3 stages of calculation of payouts for our games:

- mathematical system with unique algorithm that create math for ech particular game according to the rule
- C++ control system that check pay out as a 3rd party system on billions spins
- Internal Ruby system that check payout in real time mode with billions of spins

Each operator see the current live payout in his admin panel on each game.

[Willderbeast]

Ivan / SoftSwiss.com is a scammer and a liar. He stole our website and resold it to clients. His casino is full of bugs, big bugs like peoples money disappearing. He does not care. The website was never finished.

You are again lying in this thread. You are crap. That is far from the truth. Stop lying and come clean buddy.


"The casino was operating at full speed" Lie. We still had issues with players money disapearing. Your games crash and peoples money disapears. On going issue that we had mentioned well over 100x.

"Moreover, we granted them another month of free technical support." Your support sucks. You constantly argue and shouth out names to your clients. Saying "we don't understand casino" or "I guess you just don't have any money". You have no idea who you are dealing with. You act like a child.

"The following two weeks I only heard good things from Tara and William" Do you did not ONCE hear anything good from us. You scammed us out of the first payment. You continue to operate under clear copywrite violations as per our contract.


"after one month of operating their casino they realized that it requires certain marketing efforts and investments which they were not coping well with. In order to avoid their payment obligations, they decided to attack." THIS IS COMPLETELY FALSE. I own a very large company and HAVE NO issues with any marketing or payments. I have been in marketing my whole life and own 10+ companies in the space and several multi million dollar companys. Again, Ivan just spits out random garbage and lies and makes things up. Complete crap person to work with.

[Willderbeast]

http://www.webpagescreenshot.info/i3/53655d77029939-95734520

I have hundreds of these... I can go all day...

[badjacks99]

i have also noticed a bug on 2 different casinos that use the soft swiss software. On french roulette it lets you play until you hit a zero, after hitting zero when you rebet it freezes and forces the user to reload the game. When the game is reloaded its already in midspin and hits zero again. Upon reloading again it just keeps doing the same thing. Thats just one bug ive noticed as a customer. As your as whats going on between the owners of Soft swiss and grandecasino its hard to say at this point whos in the wrong. Have any other former or present casino owners that used Soft Swiss care to share their experience?

[Willderbeast]

I'm posting the link to this thread for the other owners who got scammed.

[badjacks99]

probably a good idea, its best to let everyone know know whats going on when it comes to situations like this. Id be interested to hear if any other operator has had any problems with them.

[FRANCOdeNIRO]

OK - Who do you recommend working with?
Thanks, Franco

probably a good idea, its best to let everyone know know whats going on when it comes to situations like this. Id be interested to hear if any other operator has had any problems with them.

[softswiss austria]

People who have been working at least several years in IT or gaming and own multi-million companies wouldn't have failed to start their online casino and blame somebody else. We are no longer commenting on this.

@William. I once again confirm that our lawyer has initiated the legal procedure and will contact you shortly. 

@Robert. Firstly, you may ask any IT company about the price of developing Keno. It is not Keno or design that makes your casino unique but the way you are able to promote it. If you lack finance to work with a solid marketing agency, you shouldn't have started the business. Secondly, SoftSwiss is acting according to the agreement you signed and is expecting our clients to fulfil contract obligations. Please see a private email for this.

@All who read the topic or are searching for a software partner. Research the market, make your own opinion about the software vender, make a research on the marketing costs and only then sign the contract. Windows has bugs, Apple has bugs....if you are looking for ideal software and games, you will never start any business. SoftSwiss doesn't guarantee that the software is bug-free, and we provide an opportunity for each client to test it and report the issues. We've never refused to fix them. What I can guarantee is that no single player has ever lost money because of our software defects. We have several levels of security inside to keep it under control.

[Nobitcoin]

Nothing software based is truly random only hardware can truly emulate randomness.