Bitcoin Forum
December 09, 2016, 07:38:34 PM *
News: To be able to use the next phase of the beta forum software, please ensure that your email address is correct/functional.
 
   Home   Help Search Donate Login Register  
Poll
Question: Do you agree with this change?  (Voting closed: January 21, 2012, 02:56:01 AM)
Agree - 59 (45.7%)
Disagree - 40 (31%)
Bitcoinica is doomed (Neutral) - 30 (23.3%)
Total Voters: 128

Pages: « 1 2 [3] 4 »  All
  Print  
Author Topic: Vote for Bitcoinica Leverage Change Proposal  (Read 3837 times)
jhajduk
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 26


View Profile
January 18, 2012, 03:59:01 AM
 #41

Almost 4 trillion dollars turns over each day in forex

Todays volume is maybe 2 million?

A lot of people have enough cash to take a bit hit into 2 million dollars of volume.

Nobody has enough money to effect 4 trillion dollars.
1481312314
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1481312314

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1481312314
Reply with quote  #2

1481312314
Report to moderator
1481312314
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1481312314

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1481312314
Reply with quote  #2

1481312314
Report to moderator
1481312314
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1481312314

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1481312314
Reply with quote  #2

1481312314
Report to moderator
Advertised sites are not endorsed by the Bitcoin Forum. They may be unsafe, untrustworthy, or illegal in your jurisdiction. Advertise here.
1481312314
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1481312314

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1481312314
Reply with quote  #2

1481312314
Report to moderator
cypherdoc
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1764



View Profile
January 18, 2012, 03:59:04 AM
 #42

I think more important than anything is that the asterisk goes away.  It gives away to much information, and restricts the market.

What happened today is a result of people exploiting this information.

You should keep your customer's positions, and even the aggregate information of their positions, confidential.

If lowering the leverage for large accounts allows you to avoid the asterisk then do it,  at least until you build up more reserves.

I agree with this.  Zhou, I think this is important -- I understand you want to be as honest as possible, but there is a such thing as being "honest to a fault".

We can't hide it anyway. If we don't have reserve, we will become a bucket shop if we don't tell our customers to stop buying/selling. So after all the only way is to distribute the trading power evenly to everyone.

I wonder what Forex brokers do when they run out of reserves?  Does that happen?  I have research to do...
Anyone who knows a lot about Forex, don't hesitate to provide clarity for me on this point.


I thought I just read...Aren't you the one who's going to be writing the documentation for Bitcoinica when it comes to their Forex-based trading ?

LOL.  Blind leading the blind.
Eveofwar
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 406


View Profile
January 18, 2012, 03:59:50 AM
 #43

I think more important than anything is that the asterisk goes away.  It gives away to much information, and restricts the market.

What happened today is a result of people exploiting this information.

You should keep your customer's positions, and even the aggregate information of their positions, confidential.

If lowering the leverage for large accounts allows you to avoid the asterisk then do it,  at least until you build up more reserves.

I agree with this.  Zhou, I think this is important -- I understand you want to be as honest as possible, but there is a such thing as being "honest to a fault".

We can't hide it anyway. If we don't have reserve, we will become a bucket shop if we don't tell our customers to stop buying/selling. So after all the only way is to distribute the trading power evenly to everyone.

I wonder what Forex brokers do when they run out of reserves?  Does that happen?  I have research to do...
Anyone who knows a lot about Forex, don't hesitate to provide clarity for me on this point.


I thought I just read...Aren't you the one who's going to be writing the documentation for Bitcoinica when it comes to their Forex-based trading ?

LOL.  Blind leading the blind.

I mean, I'm all for hiring others to do work for you...but I mean...this just kinda disturbed me a little LOL.
Crypt_Current
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 686


Shame on everything; regret nothing.


View Profile
January 18, 2012, 04:02:45 AM
 #44

My job has become to provide documentation on how Bitcoinica works.

This will include:
-- A basic tutorial of what to expect when pressing the various buttons / placing orders at Bitcoinica.
-- A very basic comparison of Bitcoinica to Forex, pointing out the most basic similarities / dissimilarities.

It might include other things.

What it will NOT include:
-- Professional trading advice
-- Any general information whatsoever on trading Forex (aside from comparing / contrasting it with Bitcoinica).

EDIT:  My experience with Bitcoinica and customer service is what makes me suitable for this position.

10% off at CampBX for LIFE:  https://campbx.com/main.php?r=C9a5izBQ5vq  ----  Authorized BitVoucher MEGA reseller (& BTC donations appreciated):  https://bitvoucher.co/affl/1HkvK8o8WWDpCTSQGnek7DH9gT1LWeV5s3/
LTC:  LRL6vb6XBRrEEifB73DiEiYZ9vbRy99H41  NMC:  NGb2spdTGpWj8THCPyCainaXenwDhAW1ZT
byronbb
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1400


HODL OR DIE


View Profile
January 18, 2012, 04:02:52 AM
 #45

lower max trade to 10BTC and raise leverage to 100:1. You just want gamblers not institutional traders.

if you don't trade on Bitcoinica please leave this discussion to those who do.


I'll rephrase: Lower the maximums to the point where bitcoinica can no longer move market 2$ a day. The purpose of bitcoinica from zhou's perspective is to make money, not deal with endless hassles and react to charges of manipulation and skulduggery. And yes I use bitcoinica to try and earn some money back off my devaluing bitcoins, but am only a small timer.


edit

Well looks like the proposal actually has this effect.

zhoutong
VIP
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 490


View Profile WWW
January 18, 2012, 04:03:34 AM
 #46

I think more important than anything is that the asterisk goes away.  It gives away to much information, and restricts the market.

What happened today is a result of people exploiting this information.

You should keep your customer's positions, and even the aggregate information of their positions, confidential.

If lowering the leverage for large accounts allows you to avoid the asterisk then do it,  at least until you build up more reserves.

I agree with this.  Zhou, I think this is important -- I understand you want to be as honest as possible, but there is a such thing as being "honest to a fault".

We can't hide it anyway. If we don't have reserve, we will become a bucket shop if we don't tell our customers to stop buying/selling. So after all the only way is to distribute the trading power evenly to everyone.

I wonder what Forex brokers do when they run out of reserves?  Does that happen?  I have research to do...
Anyone who knows a lot about Forex, don't hesitate to provide clarity for me on this point.


I thought I just read...Aren't you the one who's going to be writing the documentation for Bitcoinica when it comes to their Forex-based trading ?

LOL.  Blind leading the blind.

I mean, I'm all for hiring others to do work for you...but I mean...this just kinda disturbed me a little LOL.

I'm fine with this. I check Rails API docs all the time when I code.

Founder of NameTerrific (https://www.nameterrific.com/). Co-founder of CoinJar (https://coinjar.io/)

Donations for my future Bitcoin projects: 19Uk3tiD5XkBcmHyQYhJxp9QHoub7RosVb
notme
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1526


View Profile
January 18, 2012, 04:05:54 AM
 #47

lower max trade to 10BTC and raise leverage to 100:1. You just want gamblers not institutional traders.

if you don't trade on Bitcoinica please leave this discussion to those who do.


I'll rephrase: Lower the maximums to the point where bitcoinica can no longer move market 2$ a day. The purpose of bitcoinica from zhou's perspective is to make money, not deal with endless hassles and react to charges of manipulation and skulduggery. And yes I use bitcoinica to try and earn some money back off my devaluing bitcoins, but am only a small timer.

Thank you... you're rephrase is 1000x more informative of your opinion and relevant.

https://www.bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf
While no idea is perfect, some ideas are useful.
12jh3odyAAaR2XedPKZNCR4X4sebuotQzN
cheat_2_win
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 215


View Profile
January 18, 2012, 05:03:32 AM
 #48


The leverage Bitcoinica can handle is its problem to decide. Perhaps you need to cap everyone at 2.5:1 or 5:1 until you can grow the reserves more. I imagine that how that affects your profitability would also be part of striking a balance.


This sounds reasonable to me.

+1
speeder
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 546



View Profile
January 18, 2012, 05:14:32 AM
 #49

I strongly agree...


Also: While I was trading at 2.5:1 I was only having profits... As soon as I switched to 5:1 ...


Sad

notme
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1526


View Profile
January 18, 2012, 05:19:47 AM
 #50

For the record, I disagree.  Personally, my account is set to 10:1, but I rarely go above 3:1, including my BTC margin.  Just because you have "tradable balance" doesn't mean you should trade.

https://www.bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf
While no idea is perfect, some ideas are useful.
12jh3odyAAaR2XedPKZNCR4X4sebuotQzN
notme
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1526


View Profile
January 18, 2012, 05:26:39 AM
 #51

i strongly disagree

For the record, I disagree.  Personally, my account is set to 10:1, but I rarely go above 3:1, including my BTC margin.  Just because you have "tradable balance" doesn't mean you should trade.

* is bad. Gives too much away. This would help eliminate it.



This may help it appear less often, but it can't eliminate it.  I actually like the *, but I love any additional information I can get.

https://www.bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf
While no idea is perfect, some ideas are useful.
12jh3odyAAaR2XedPKZNCR4X4sebuotQzN
legitnick
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 532



View Profile WWW
January 18, 2012, 05:36:06 AM
 #52

What about the greedy bastard variable?

5 BITCOIN RAFFLE GIVEAWAY
"I dont lift" - Lord Furrycoat
notme
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1526


View Profile
January 18, 2012, 05:47:40 AM
 #53

What about the greedy bastard variable?

What about it?  Greedy bastards get liquidated, simple as that.  I don't mind the market seizing a little to shake them out, and I trade with low leverage.

https://www.bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf
While no idea is perfect, some ideas are useful.
12jh3odyAAaR2XedPKZNCR4X4sebuotQzN
ArticMine
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1806


Monero Core Team


View Profile
January 18, 2012, 06:04:55 AM
 #54


I agree that. Most of our profits come from 2:5 traders and 5:1 traders. Not only 10:1 traders lost a lot themselves during volatile periods, we lost a lot due to market slippage as well.

Which begs the question as to why you are offering 10:1 leverage for small accounts under your new proposal? The proposal is a step in the right direction; however given the volatility of Bitcoin I would suggest at most 2.5:1 leverage for everyone regardless of account size. I am not a Bitcoinica customer by the way.

Concerned that blockchain bloat will lead to centralization? Storing less than 4 GB of data once required the budget of a superpower and a warehouse full of punched cards. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/87/IBM_card_storage.NARA.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punched_card
mobodick
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 826



View Profile
January 18, 2012, 06:48:36 AM
 #55

I think this is great!

I have felt for the last few months that bitcoin has too little market depth in general to justify large margins on large positions.
Resolving positions results in very big swings.
Dutch Merganser
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 84


View Profile
January 18, 2012, 09:07:11 AM
 #56

Code:
`1.0 : 1 4% (25:1) 92% 96% Unlimited
  2.5 : 1 4% (25:1) 32% 36% Unlimited
  5.0 : 1 4% (25:1) 12% 16% $20,000
  10.0 : 1 4% (25:1) 2% 6% $2,000
WTF is this shit ? only 2 fucking dollars  


I believe the comma is *not* being used as a decimal point in this context. I could be mistaken. It's a good thing the word "billion" doesn't appear here, otherwise we might have to ask if 10^9 or 10^12 is meant  Smiley

"Science flies you to the Moon, religion flies you into buildings."
 - Victor Stenger

"Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and the rulers as useful."
 - Seneca the Elder (ca. 54 BCE - ca. 39 CE) Roman rhetorician
Technomage
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1624


Affordable Physical Bitcoins - Denarium.com


View Profile WWW
January 18, 2012, 11:19:58 AM
 #57

I'm glad to see most voters have some sense. This proposal is critical in many ways, it's the only good way to reduce the issue of the Bitcoinica "asterisk". The bigger players have to be limited somehow until Bitcoinica has enough money to back it up. They can always change it back later when they have more reserves.

More than anything this was a learning process for everyone involved. But it was undoubtedly caused by the fact that people had too much information. It wasn't an issue of guessing or having a hunch, everyone knew people went long big time because Bitcoinica's reserves were low. Without this indicator it would've been more difficult and a much bigger risk to do what was done.

I hope this is implemented asap.

Denarium - Leading Physical Bitcoin Manufacturer - Special Xmas deals now live!
Otoh
Donator
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1918



View Profile
January 18, 2012, 12:37:04 PM
 #58

I have 10:1 leverage (or at least I did until it got pulled & then I searched the forum for why as I didn't see any explanation where the leverages available on Bitcoinica show), I rarely use though more than 2:1 with plenty of margin to account for just the sort of large price change that's happened & I'm personally fine if peeps want to make those swings using 10:1 leverage or whatever, if it can happen it will & though it's sad to be on the wrong side of these swings (which I have been sometimes) it quickly helps to teach one about leverage, volatility & risk tolerance & one can arrange a very low risk strategy for taking advantage of these - I voted no changes because I like the kinda Wild West anarchy of these relatively early BTC days, once it gets high & stable with large market cap then we will maybe even look back fondly to the Khoutonging era, anyway I don't know enough about Bitcoinica to state for sure that it wouldn't be better to implement these lower limits & if it helps keep Bitcoinica afloat then I'm all for that, whether it can be enforced I doubt but as Khou lost money by it being the way it was then he's every right to adapt the rules of his house in order to keep it profitable, trying to protect newbs & incautious/unlucky players from being Khoutonged is just folly in my opinion & a red herring

Node40.com is a leader in DASH hosting, dedicated exclusively to fully managed masternode hosting. Professional, organized, and responsive. I have many dozens of nodes with them.    
BTC = $c²     BTC = 1otohotohMoQoxHuxLBveQiZcV3Pji3Tc      DASH, Digital Cash = www.dash.org   
   CHARITY | MY REP | DICE
michaelmclees
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 629


View Profile
January 18, 2012, 01:05:50 PM
 #59

How about you just untie yourself from MtGox.  You've become a dog wagging tail and while I personally find nothing wrong with it, so long as you advertise very clearly your lack of funds when people deposit money (rather than when they attempt to liquidate), if you want to make people here happy, you're going to need to operate more like a dark pool.
teflone
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 770


You're fat, because you dont have any pics on FB


View Profile
January 18, 2012, 02:24:04 PM
 #60

How about you just untie yourself from MtGox.  You've become a dog wagging tail and while I personally find nothing wrong with it, so long as you advertise very clearly your lack of funds when people deposit money (rather than when they attempt to liquidate), if you want to make people here happy, you're going to need to operate more like a dark pool.

Im glad im not the only one that sees this need..

For Canadians by Canadians: Canada's Bitcoin Community - https://www.coinforum.ca/
Pages: « 1 2 [3] 4 »  All
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Sponsored by , a Bitcoin-accepting VPN.
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!