[ANN] Changes to AML Policies - Mt.Gox

[Mt.Gox Support]

Due to a increased amount of forged documents being received by our AML department, we will be adding extra provisions to our AML requirements starting immediately(*).
Going forward:

• Your notarization must include the wording “Notarization for the purpose of verifying on MtGox.com”
• Notarization alone will not suffice; we need an Apostille. Notaries can do this in most countries (please see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostille_convention)

Please be advised that documents received without the above may not be accepted as valid account approval documentation.

Thank you for your cooperation.

The Mt.Gox Team

(*) : In practice we're going to give 1-2 days leeway (based on the date of notarization).

[1714106445]

1714106445

[Eveofwar]

Notaries can do this in most countries (please see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostille_convention)

i'm sure that link will be quite handy in another 21 hours.

This one is quite handy now.

http://dumps.wikimedia.org/

[ripper234]

Due to a increased amount of forged documents being received by our AML department, we will be adding extra provisions to our AML requirements starting immediately(*).
Going forward:

• Your notarization must include the wording “Notarization for the purpose of verifying on MtGox.com”
• Notarization alone will not suffice; we need an Apostille. Notaries can do this in most countries (please see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostille_convention)

Please be advised that documents received without the above may not be accepted as valid account approval documentation.

Thank you for your cooperation.

The Mt.Gox Team

(*) : In practice we're going to give 1-2 days leeway (based on the date of notarization).

AML = anti money laundering.
The view wikipedia, just press ESCAPE when the page is loading, before the javascript runs.

[BkkCoins]

These are almost impossible to get in many countries. I tried once here in Thailand years ago. No one had a clue, even lawyers and the local government was even more clueless. I was told to contact the Minstry of Foreign Affairs by the bank that wanted one of these. No one there had any clue and wouldn't lift a finger to find out either. Good luck if you're not in a developed signatory nation with this. It's just another nail in the soon to be coffin of Bitcoin.

How much money can you withdraw before you need to go thru this hassle?

[julz]

Here in Australia - looks like you have to get it from DFAT

Apostilles -$60 per Apostille on a single sided document (note, no additional fee is charged for any initialling associated within the relevant document)

So.. .$60 per document??  .. and because of that silly “Notarization for the purpose of verifying on MtGox.com”
Each such apostille can presumably only be used for this one purpose.. Ouch.

[vuce]

With all these demands I hope people will finally start using bitcoins instead of exchanging them back to fiat.

[Technomage]

Right now Mt. Gox is the number one exchange and they do not have SEPA withdraws nor do they even allow SEPA deposits without being verified. This new process makes verifications ridiculously hard to send, I've been forced to verify myself on dozens of major gambling sites over the years and I've never seen anything like this.

What is going to happen next is that Mt. Gox is going to lose customers. With Bitcoinica considering to become its own exchange, I think the days of Mt. Gox being the number one exchange are numbered. None of the smaller exchanges have these kinds of requirements, this is taking inconvenience to a whole other level. Unacceptable.

In the short term this is a MAJOR hit especially to European Bitcoiners. I know a lot of people who have already been pissed how difficult money transfers are, after this announcement many are going to say "fuck it". I'm just lucky to already be verified at Mt. Gox but if I weren't, I would also say fuck it.

On the other hand this is a big opportunity for everyone else in Europe who provide services that allow people to buy and sell bitcoins. Mt. Gox is going to get increased competition this year, in fact a hell of a lot more than before. Personally I don't understand why they're doing this because I've never even heard of a site that does this so it's hardly a legal requirement.

I can all but guarantee that any issues or amount of work they currently get from the excess amount of fake documents is going to be small compared to the amount of customers they will lose over this. Reconsider what you're doing.

[Meni Rosenfeld]

With all these demands I hope people will finally start using bitcoins instead of exchanging them back to fiat.

I doubt that this is the effect that we'll see from this. Right now Mt. Gox is the number one exchange and they do not have SEPA withdraws nor do they even allow SEPA deposits without being verified. This new process makes verifications ridiculously hard to send, I've been forced to verify myself on dozens of major gambling sites over the years and I've never seen anything like this.

What is going to happen next is that Mt. Gox is going to lose customers. With Bitcoinica considering to become its own exchange, I think the days of Mt. Gox being the number one exchange are going to be over. None of the smaller exchanges have these kind of requirements, this is taking inconvenience to a whole other level. Unacceptable.

In the short term this is a MAJOR hit to especially European Bitcoiners. I know a lot of people who have already been pissed how difficult money transfers are, after this announcement many are going to say "fuck it". I'm just lucky to already be verified at Mt. Gox but if I weren't, I would also say fuck it.

Not sure if serious. Mtgox aren't doing this because they feel like spiting you. All exchanges have been through tons of shit with legal and banking issues. It stands to reason that Mtgox, dealing with volumes orders of magnitudes more than other exchanges, suffer from more fraud and are subject to more scrutiny than the others.

Another exchange may or may not succeed Mtgox, but they will suffer the same problems and will likely come up with similar solutions.

[teflone]

Mtgox... Is there any other hurdles you wish us to jump for you ?

I have my Commadore 64 here, could I send it to you so that you may upgrade Mtgox.live ?  Its horrendously pathetic..

Bitcoinica independant exchange FTW!

[Technomage]

Not sure if serious. Mtgox aren't doing this because they feel like spiting you. All exchanges have been through tons of shit with legal and banking issues. It stands to reason that Mtgox, dealing with volumes orders of magnitudes more than other exchanges, suffer from more fraud and are subject to more scrutiny than the others.

Another exchange may or may not succeed Mtgox, but they will suffer the same problems and will likely come up with similar solutions.

I'm dead serious about this. There are sites out there that I've used, that handle amounts of money MUCH larger than Mt. Gox, yet they do not ask for 3rd party verifications of this sort. I'm well aware of the issues exchanges have had, especially in Europe, but it has not been stated that this is directly related to that. My point was that this is, especially to European users, absolutely unacceptable. What it will lead to is nobody in Europe using Mt. Gox anymore except people who actively trade and those people will probably go to Bitcoinica once its an independent exchange.

Again this is only a problem temporarily. We will see more startups offering exchange services, even simple ones. Especially after an announcement like this, the demand is there big time. The reason I'm vocal about this is because I like Mt. Gox and I don't have a clue what they're thinking. This is an absolute disaster which will make using Bitcoin that much more inconvenient. I would at least like to know more about why they're doing this, if it were my business I wouldn't do this unless it was absolutely necessary.

In that case there is nothing they can do but see more and more users spread out to smaller services because the number one advantage Mt. Gox has, which is high volume and good depth, is not going to be enough anymore. At least for me it wouldn't if I wasn't already verified. Many European non-verified Mt. Gox users or potential users are looking at this development with angry feelings, money transfers have been inconvenient and expensive already but now they are simply a total pain in the ass.

[EhVedadoOAnonimato]

The reason I'm vocal about this is because I like Mt. Gox and I don't have a clue what they're thinking. This is an absolute disaster which will make using Bitcoin that much more inconvenient. I would at least like to know more about why they're doing this, if it were my business I wouldn't do this unless it was absolutely necessary.

I share this opinion, I'd never do such a thing on my own initiative. We can only suppose they were threatened. And, as you say...

There are sites out there that I've used, that handle amounts of money MUCH larger than Mt. Gox, yet they do not ask for 3rd party verifications of this sort.

This probably means officials are already striking harder on bitcoin exchanges, in comparison to other money-related services. As usual, instead of blatantly banning it, they will try to regulate it to the point of making it barely usable.
Don't forbid bitcoin completely, but make it so hard to use it that most people won't even bother.
Sad.

[Raoul Duke]

Too bad... Now most people will need to get money(bitcoins) the old way, earning them.
Exchange bitcoins for goods and services instead of fiat currency.

[FreeMoney]

This means MtGox is not suitable for small amounts or casual users at all.

[sadpandatech]

"In February 2009 the Hague Conference decided to amend the wording on the Apostille to make it clear that no one was checking whether the document being attested was genuine or a fake. The new wording to be used was as follows. "This Apostille only certifies the signature, the capacity of the signer and the seal or stamp it bears. It does not certify the content of the document for which it was issued"


The preceding makes this useless form of signing no more valid than that of a Notary.......................

I hope Gox atleast intends to make a list of what U.S. states and other countries, states, etc would qualify to submit a Notary or have to go to the sec of state for a fancy notary, which is all this is.

I'm fairly certain Notaries here in the state of Florida qualify because they have their signatures registered on file with the state. If not, I can tell you now, I am sure as hell not driving 4 hours to the state capital just to get a friggin fancy notary.....

weird stuff, gox..

[bittenbob]

This means MtGox is not suitable for small amounts or casual users at all.

How so? You only need to do AML verification if you want to withdraw more than 400BTC or $1000USD per 24 hours. I would hardly call anyone exceeding this a small or casual user.

Another reason you might need to verify is if you connect through a proxy or the TOR network which you would probably only be doing if you were up to no good. At first I wondered what was going on here but the more I look into it the more of a non issue it is. Amounts over this could very well be used for money laundering.


With all this MTGox needs to get their stuff together! That api charting problem and system lock up yesterday was completely unacceptable and I have seen no official explanation. This is what would drive users away more so than a verification process that is required for bigger players only. EXPLANATION PLEASE MTGOX!

[guywhogotgoxed]

This is identical to the scenario where mtgox users had their btc stolen when their passwords leaked, and mtgox demanded that they contact the police and demanded some kind of document that their computers have been scanned, "which might be the cause of their loss" or something like that. This happened to my brother and I still feel like crap for telling him to use mtgox. My brother also thinks bitcoin will not succeed simply because its full of crooks (he lost money in both mtgox and mybitcoin... imagine how I feel for being the one to tell him to try bitcoin).

And why would I believe that this isnt an attempt to rob customers of their money? Everyone has heard of people getting their accounts frozen for no reason. Now they even demand you to provide a document which might not even be possible for you to get.

[Technomage]

How so? You only need to do AML verification if you want to withdraw more than 400BTC or $1000USD per 24 hours. I would hardly call anyone exceeding this a small or casual user.

If it was only this I wouldn't be so pissed about it. But the SEPA transfers for European users have been "verified members only" for a while now. That is what pisses me off the most.

[Jered Kenna (TradeHill)]

How so? You only need to do AML verification if you want to withdraw more than 400BTC or $1000USD per 24 hours. I would hardly call anyone exceeding this a small or casual user.

If it was only this I wouldn't be so pissed about it. But the SEPA transfers for European users have been "verified members only" for a while now. That is what pisses me off the most.

SEPA transfers can potentially be reversed. Any time you deal with reversible methods verifying identity reduces risk. It might not be enough, but it's a start. Bitcoin exchanges operate on really small margins. If Mt Gox is defrauded 1000EUR they're going to have to do 100,000EUR to make it up.

I personally feel the new AML Policy is over the top but they can go about it how they choose. I'd assume they're basing it on something or doing it for a good reason.

Jered

[Bro]

what
that's non sense

time to meetup locally and exchange cash

[DeathAndTaxes]

Each one of those provisions is tough and combined they become a completely unnecessary burden.  

In the US the service is almost unheard of and when available can cost >$100 per document.  That sucks but when the document needs to be defaced to state Mt. Gox it means this is a one time use.

The worst part is A NOTARY DOESN'T PROVE THE DOCUMENT ISN'T FAKE AND NEITHER DOES AN APOSTILLE.