[ANN] Changes to AML Policies - Mt.Gox

[FreeMoney]

This means MtGox is not suitable for small amounts or casual users at all.

How so? You only need to do AML verification if you want to withdraw more than 400BTC or $1000USD per 24 hours. I would hardly call anyone exceeding this a small or casual user.

This is not true. There are unknown triggers.

[bittenbob]

This means MtGox is not suitable for small amounts or casual users at all.

How so? You only need to do AML verification if you want to withdraw more than 400BTC or $1000USD per 24 hours. I would hardly call anyone exceeding this a small or casual user.

This is not true. There are unknown triggers.

If you go to the settings page I saw you cannot connect through TOR or proxies. I did not see this anywhere else but it would be my guess as why some people claim "unknown" triggers. This should be better documented and perhaps even on the main page before you log in. If you were using a proxy for watching online tv in another country and forget to disable it then that could cause it.

[Fizzgig]

MTGox, I would like you to tell us how many exceptions you have made to the withdrawal limit rules. I.E. cases which you required ID to withdraw amounts less than specified, or proxy cases as we seem to have come to the conclusion that those can trigger ID requirements.

If there are ANY other cases which you are requiring ID then we have the right to know.

I deposit 350btc sell high, buy low, then withdraw a little less than 400 purposefully to avoid having to deal with ID requirements. Now I can totally see my btc being held hostage on some random day that I need the liquidity, so will I get hit?

[evoorhees]

While us Bitcoiners are spoilt by the regulation-less environment we live it, we should remember that Bitcoin businesses which connect us to the legacy systems will be pressured to comply with laws. It is probably a good thing that they do, so that Bitcoin can grow faster before the Gov comes in with a vengeance against the currency itself.

Bitcoin operates beyond regulation.
But, those touchpoints of the standard financial system do not.

Don't get mad at Gox specifically for this phenomenon. They will draw the most attention from authorities, and should probably do their best to coddle them whilst we develop...

[DeathAndTaxes]

While us Bitcoiners are spoilt by the regulation-less environment we live it, we should remember that Bitcoin businesses which connect us to the legacy systems will be pressured to comply with laws. It is probably a good thing that they do, so that Bitcoin can grow faster before the Gov comes in with a vengeance against the currency itself.

Bitcoin operates beyond regulation.
But, those touchpoints of the standard financial system do not.

Don't get mad at Gox specifically for this phenomenon. They will draw the most attention from authorities, and should probably do their best to coddle them whilst we develop...

Nonsense.  I have NEVER needed to jump through the hoops Mt.Gox is asking for.  Not for bank accounts, not for corporate banking, not for brokerage accounts involving 6 figures.  The worse part isn't the hoops it is the utter stupidity of it.

Mt. Gox requires documents for proof <- no problem with this
Mt. Gox requires documents to be notarized <- well this is kinda stupid but it is minimally invasive
Mt. Gox gets a lot of FAKE DOCUMENTS (not fake notaries but FAKE DOCUMENTS) <- kinda to be expected

Mt. Gox solution is to required harder to locate and more expensive notaries.   

A notary DOESN'T GUARANTEE A DOCUMENT ISN'T FAKE.  That isn't their job. 

[Phinnaeus Gage]

I have a cousin that told me last year he got an Illinois ID card under false pretense. He used that ID to get some piece of paper notarized. I'm guessing (here) that he can use that same ID to get an Apostille here in Illinois.

Now, I don't know how he went about getting a fake Illinois ID card, but I now have one, too. Last November, I received two traffic tickets (don't ask, but if I ever find out that woman's name...). In Illinois, if you get two tickets, they take your DL license for bond. You get it back once you go to court on your court date--not before. My bank told be that I needed a photo ID even though they've known me for years. It's their policy. So, to Plano, Illinois, I went to get my first ever state issued photo ID card. This is what they told me I needed. My Social Security Card and two pieces of mail with my current address on them. Luckily, I found two pieces of mail in my truck so that I didn't have to drive back home. Both junk mail. When I used it at my bank for the first time, they looked at it, handed it back to me, and proceeded to finish my transactions without writing any information down from the ID card. I've used it once at another bank, one I've never been to before, to cash a $1,000 check from a client and, they too, did not even bother to write anything down. Just looked at it, looked at me, and handed it back. (that shocked me, too) I now have a legal ID accepted in the state of Illinois and should have no problem going to Chicago and get an Apostille. And either should my cousin.

Now, here's my take. This could all possible be a game played by MtGox. I sure do hope not, for Bitcoin's sake.

That said, I DON'T LIKE PLAYING GAMES!!!


~BRUNO~

[casascius]

It would be much easier if there were a designated agent where you could send your documents.  Somehow I suspect that MtGox sees many more "Photoshop" forgeries than physical ones, and I can't blame them for having an issue with that.  I am admittedly in a biased position though - they've seen my docs, they've met me face to face (CES), and I will probably never have to go through the process ever again.

I suppose they could offer that you send the physical documents to them in Japan in lieu of "apostille".  Likewise, I suppose they wouldn't get too many takers.  However, if what they're asking for really costs that much, then it's on par with just overnighting your crap to MtGox in Japan and then back.

Too bad notaries don't understand cryptography.  Even if they didn't, but offered a service where they scanned and digitally signed Adobe PDF (which requires two factors - a password and a hardware USB signing key) - this would be a no-brainer.  The PKI infrastructure would certify that the notary is legit.

If MtGox had independent but trusted representation in the US, for example, it would make things easier.  Example, a trusted party under contract with MtGox to scan and certify documents and attest to them looking reasonably legit.  I have thrown that out as an idea once upon a time when I was talking about digitally signing PDF.  One could overnight their documents to them, have that party scan and certify them, and send them back - eliminating the international expense, the added risk (customs, etc.). and just the plain risk that MtGox - known to be busy - might not get around to sending them back right away.

[finway]

Questions:

1. Since when require notarization to get verified? I dont remember i've submitted a notarization.

2. If i have got verified, do i need to submit notarization with apostille ?

[Meni Rosenfeld]

1. Since when require notarization to get verified? I dont remember i've submitted a notarization.

For a while now verification requires any documents to have a notarized translation if they do not already contain the necessary details in Latin script.

2. If i have got verified, do i need to submit notarization with apostille ?

I don't think the new requirements apply retroactively.

[EhVedadoOAnonimato]

While us Bitcoiners are spoilt by the regulation-less environment we live it, we should remember that Bitcoin businesses which connect us to the legacy systems will be pressured to comply with laws. It is probably a good thing that they do, so that Bitcoin can grow faster before the Gov comes in with a vengeance against the currency itself.

Bitcoin operates beyond regulation.
But, those touchpoints of the standard financial system do not.

Don't get mad at Gox specifically for this phenomenon. They will draw the most attention from authorities, and should probably do their best to coddle them whilst we develop...

Nonsense.  I have NEVER needed to jump through the hoops Mt.Gox is asking for.  Not for bank accounts, not for corporate banking, not for brokerage accounts involving 6 figures.  The worse part isn't the hoops it is the utter stupidity of it.

That's why, as I sad before, I don't think this is out of their own initiative.  They probably were forced to require these things.

[Mt.Gox Support]

Thank you all for your comments and concerned, there are indeed some very good points that has been raised here, and we will make sure to check all of them to make your life easier. This said, you have to understand that we are all doing this for good reasons and not just to bother you guys (do you think we really like having to check anyone IDs?), and what's going on right now at MtGox regarding our change in AML policies is to protect you, our honest users!

And don't get me wrong here, but what we are going through will be forced upon other exchanges sooner or later regardless of their location with all the financial burden tied around them.

Once again we are aware that some of these changes may not always please everyone, but they are here for the best and for the overall acceptance of Bitcoin as a viable, honest, and trustworthy medium of exchange that all governments, regardless of their political orientation, will understand and respect. We, and here I mean us the Bitcoin enthusiast and community, have to work our way to make this happen, and the only way right now is to comply with some basic rules that are forced upon us on a daily basis to win this battle and then impose our own rules (The Bitcoin Community rules) and change how things will be done in the future.

If unfortunately, I cannot disclose everything, but as we discussed with some of you at CES, we MtGox are working to make things right, and this take time as well as a lot of money and effort, so yes we may appear to be slow on some stuff our rough on others, but we are working for you and the community, not against you.

Spread the word, Spread the Love, Enjoy Bitcoins!

[BkkCoins]

Thank you all for your comments and concerned, there are indeed some very good points that has been raised here, and we will make sure to check all of them to make your life easier. This said, you have to understand that we are all doing this for good reasons and not just to bother you guys (do you think we really like having to check anyone IDs?), and what's going on right now at MtGox regarding our change in AML policies is to protect you, our honest users!

And don't get me wrong here, but what we are going through will be forced upon other exchanges sooner or later regardless of their location with all the financial burden tied around them.

Once again we are aware that some of these changes may not always please everyone, but they are here for the best and for the overall acceptance of Bitcoin as a viable, honest, and trustworthy medium of exchange that all governments, regardless of their political orientation, will understand and respect. We, and here I mean us the Bitcoin enthusiast and community, have to work our way to make this happen, and the only way right now is to comply with some basic rules that are forced upon us on a daily basis to win this battle and then impose our own rules (The Bitcoin Community rules) and change how things will be done in the future.

If unfortunately, I cannot disclose everything, but as we discussed with some of you at CES, we MtGox are working to make things right, and this take time as well as a lot of money and effort, so yes we may appear to be slow on some stuff our rough on others, but we are working for you and the community, not against you.

Spread the word, Spread the Love, Enjoy Bitcoins!

Dude, even swiss banks when you walk in with a suitcase
full of cash don't require that kind of level of verification,
and god knows they're under scrutiny for ML issues on a
whole different level than you ever will be.

Actually they do.
The one time I needed an apostille was when I wanted to open a Swiss bank account.
If I had turned up in person a passport would be fine but to open an account when not in person they required an apostille.

[EhVedadoOAnonimato]

and what's going on right now at MtGox regarding our change in AML policies is to protect you, our honest users!

Oh, please, everybody knows AML has nothing to do with protecting honest people, its main purpose is to help the several IRSes out there by catching those who want to protect their money from taxation.
Unless by "protect you, our honest users" you actually mean "protect us from getting shut down and not being able to provide you any service any more".

And don't get me wrong here, but what we are going through will be forced upon other exchanges sooner or later regardless of their location with all the financial burden tied around them.

Finally, you clearly admit you were forced to do it. Thanks.

acceptance of Bitcoin as a viable, honest, and trustworthy medium of exchange that all governments, regardless of their political orientation, will understand and respect.

I find that a naive hope. Control of the money supply and money flow is not something that "all governments" will abandon easily.
But anyway, thank you for trying, if it actually happens this way it will be great.

[casascius]

What kind of documents should one submit to an apostille service?  I actually called one and asked about this.

I asked if I should send them my passport.  They were like... "No, please send a copy of the passport, because the apostille will be attached to it, and will only be useful if you're sending the original."

I did not ask them if I should send them my electric bill.  I imagine they would say, WTF?

However, it DID sound like they actually confirm the legitimacy of a passport copy with the State Department, a process that would take two business days and cost $90.

Am I on the right track?  Will someone from MtGox Support please clarify what documents, exactly, should be sent to the apostille service?

[finway]

What kind of documents should one submit to an apostille service?  I actually called one and asked about this.

I asked if I should send them my passport.  They were like... "No, please send a copy of the passport, because the apostille will be attached to it, and will only be useful if you're sending the original."

I did not ask them if I should send them my electric bill.  I imagine they would say, WTF?

However, it DID sound like they actually confirm the legitimacy of a passport copy with the State Department, a process that would take two business days and cost $90.

Am I on the right track?  Will someone from MtGox Support please clarify what documents, exactly, should be sent to the apostille service?

It's under SETTINGS->VERIFY

[pointbiz]

In the Brtish Commonwealth and Dutch Kingdom you need to visit the ministry of foreign affairs. I believe this is the case for Scandinavian countries.

To state this can be done through a notary is incorrect. Some notaries may provide a service where they will travel on your behalf and expense to foreign affairs.

[casascius]

What kind of documents should one submit to an apostille service?  I actually called one and asked about this.

I asked if I should send them my passport.  They were like... "No, please send a copy of the passport, because the apostille will be attached to it, and will only be useful if you're sending the original."

I did not ask them if I should send them my electric bill.  I imagine they would say, WTF?

However, it DID sound like they actually confirm the legitimacy of a passport copy with the State Department, a process that would take two business days and cost $90.

Am I on the right track?  Will someone from MtGox Support please clarify what documents, exactly, should be sent to the apostille service?

It's under SETTINGS->VERIFY

Just to be perfectly clear, the answers to the questions I asked are not under Settings->Verify, otherwise I would not have asked them.  The issue is that the information on that page is not clear, and not that I have not visited the page.

MtGox should also consider accepting the originals sent to them by courier, agreeing to return them promptly (even if that means the customer must pay the return shipping).  If I weigh the possible outcomes, the odds of losing my documents to MtGox (random guess: 1:50) and having to maybe replace them, are far more favorable than a 100% chance I will eat the cost of the apostille service and all of the courier costs getting that done (which cost almost as much as replacing a passport in the first place).

[Littleshop]

I am just not sure why they think an apostille service is needed.  One way to reduce fraud would be to have the customer send the documents directly to mtgox via mail and not accept scanned documents.  This might cost the customer $30 but the customer would not need the added cost of an apostille. 

The other would be for them to do some minor checking on each one, such as using a drivers license identity verification service.  I admin that these vary by state (in the US) and country (if they exist), but for an international company they will need to have people do this work.  They can charge the customer for this service if necessary though personally I think that is a bad idea. 

In short, verifying an account in a first world country should not cost more then $30 or require me to drive to another city (as it seems like it would in Maryland). 

[repentance]

Each one of those provisions is tough and combined they become a completely unnecessary burden.  

In the US the service is almost unheard of and when available can cost >$100 per document.  That sucks but when the document needs to be defaced to state Mt. Gox it means this is a one time use.

The worst part is A NOTARY DOESN'T PROVE THE DOCUMENT ISN'T FAKE AND NEITHER DOES AN APOSTILLE.

I'd bet that there's more room for prosecuting people who fake an apostille though and that the penalties are harsher. 

It's kind of ironic that once upon a time you had to pay to obtain fake documents whereas now you cat n fake documents yourself with ease but have to pay to re-authenticate authentic documents (which you've probably paid to obtain).

Any organisation which is bound by AML/CTF/KYC requirements needs ultimately to be able to prove that they took adequate measures to verify the true identities of their users.  The more complex the ways in which people try to fake their identities become, the more onerous the procedures are going to become for verifying when it can't be done face to face with the original documents present.  The verification process itself costs companies money, quite apart from upsetting their customers.  That they are pushing ahead with a verification process which they know is going to lose them a portion of their users suggests that they believe not requiring this level of verification exposes them to potentially greater losses than those that will result from customers going elsewhere.

The other would be for them to do some minor checking on each one, such as using a drivers license identity verification service.  I admin that these vary by state (in the US) and country (if they exist), but for an international company they will need to have people do this work.

In some nations, privacy laws protect information held about individuals and there's no way Mt Gox or the other exchanges could legally obtain access to that information except for the individual themselves obtaining it and forwarding it to them.  This is especially true of information which relates to unique government identifiers.

[zer0]

Perfect Money doesn't require this and they move way more $$$ than MtGox. Problem is Gox does business in the US so therefore will get the screws tighter and tighter until every transaction must be reported to the IRS and fingerprints/eye scans/DNA lol.

There's a reason all the digital e-currencies fled the US, and why there are no more exchangers there. Unless you want to end up like the founders of egold register your BTC trading corps offshore like Cgold/Pecunix and let exchangers handle all the KYC/AML nonsense to pay into your system and withdraw through voucher codes.

All the more reason to use off the record trading user 2 user and avoid big exchanges