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del
January 18, 2012, 09:17:40 AM
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January 18, 2012, 09:20:30 AM
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Now Bitcoinica is doing that under the excuse that is to protect you from yourself because you are a baby and you need a nanny.

Which is a fair point given the amount of cries and tantrums posted on the forum and irc yesterday after the crash...
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January 18, 2012, 09:24:22 AM
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Now Bitcoinica is doing that under the excuse that is to protect you from yourself because you are a baby and you need a nanny.

Which is a fair point given the amount of cries and tantrums posted on the forum and irc yesterday after the crash...

My account is set to 10:1, I was long and didn't get liquidated.  In fact, I bought more and am back in the green, at acceptable leverage.  What happened today is many people learned a hard lesson about leverage.  This will lead to a healthier market.  If you lost today, just remember, we all have made a bad trade.  The volatility won't die down until we have more traders who have learned these lessons.

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January 18, 2012, 09:53:57 AM
 #4

Bitcoinica is the winner because of the fees/spreads.

Zhoutong is in an ideal position for insider trading. He could easily have made BTC 50K last night from the gullibility of those gamblers. Spreads and fees are only a facade to pretend this is an "honest" business.


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January 18, 2012, 10:15:30 AM
 #5

Bitcoinica is the winner because of the fees/spreads.

Zhoutong is in an ideal position for insider trading. He could easily have made BTC 50K last night from the gullibility of those gamblers. Spreads and fees are only a facade to pretend this is an "honest" business.

Got anything to back up those accusations?
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January 18, 2012, 10:23:30 AM
 #6

Bitcoinica is the winner because of the fees/spreads.

Zhoutong is in an ideal position for insider trading. He could easily have made BTC 50K last night from the gullibility of those gamblers. Spreads and fees are only a facade to pretend this is an "honest" business.

Got anything to back up those accusations?

No, it's mathematically impossible to prove him guilty. He'd thus be mad not to do it.

EDIT: Of course there is the possibility that he's a person of exceptional integrity. But somehow "exceptional integrity" and "derivatives trading" don't go together very well.

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January 18, 2012, 10:30:01 AM
 #7

No, it's mathematically impossible to prove him guilty. He'd thus be mad not to do it.

It's a good job Z is running it and not you then.

Sure he's making money, I'm not sure why OP is so naive to this fact. He's in win-win situation, whatever the market does he gets his spreads. The longer it goes on the more money is involved the more he makes.

Lets leave the libellous chit-chat in the playground.

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January 18, 2012, 10:39:04 AM
 #8

Bitcoinica is the winner because of the fees/spreads.

Zhoutong is in an ideal position for insider trading. He could easily have made BTC 50K last night from the gullibility of those gamblers. Spreads and fees are only a facade to pretend this is an "honest" business.

Got anything to back up those accusations?

No, it's mathematically impossible to prove him guilty. He'd thus be mad not to do it.

EDIT: Of course there is the possibility that he's a person of exceptional integrity. But somehow "exceptional integrity" and "derivatives trading" don't go together very well.

I know there are evil forex brokers out there, but that's the motivation to have a change.

I feel good enough the reality isn't hurting the honest people, even in a free market. I even questioned myself whether I can justify the profits from a negative-sum game. It's the people who love Bitcoinica that make the project going.

There are a lot of both money-making and value-generating opportunities out there, and I don't want to spend my energy on exploiting other people.

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January 18, 2012, 10:57:14 AM
 #9

Which is a fair
is fair ? they can change their rules anytime is their game they make the rules but one need to have things clear
is there any point to stay and play ? nope because you cant win, the house will chop your funds


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January 18, 2012, 11:03:13 AM
 #10

If you don't like it don't use it. I have made a few thousand US$ there but stopped because I do not like the fees. I think he is screwing us over on the US$ dollar to bitcoins rate so I just don't play.   People who are crying cuz they lost money at 10 to 1 leverage is lol. A fool and his money are soon parted or something like that. lulz

I don't like it, I don't use it. I made my profits trying to limit volatility. Bought on spikes down, sold on spikes up. No point leveraging something so volatile. What performace do some people expect? 5-digit %?

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January 18, 2012, 11:24:25 AM
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I feel good enough the reality isn't hurting the honest people, even in a free market. I even questioned myself whether I can justify the profits from a negative-sum game. It's the people who love Bitcoinica that make the project going.

There are a lot of both money-making and value-generating opportunities out there, and I don't want to spend my energy on exploiting other people.

Reality of course hurts honest people all the time. The reason I don't like your service is that it induces volatility, which hurts honest merchants. They may or may not be able to live with it but they get hurt all the same. If volatility is not going down, the future of Bitcoin looks very bleak indeed. If every night were like last night, Bitcoin would be dead in a few months. Your game is bad for almost everyone.

I really wish someone with deep pockets stepped in and imposed exchange rates by simply outgunning your service. (Can't belive I am saying that). Because only when vola goes down, businesses who don't care whether Bitcoin is cool but only want to sell their stuff without trouble with payment will be able to step in.

On the question of whether gamblers get ripped off, I don't mind at all. They deserve it. Just like online poker players who think it impossible that they play against the sysadmin who knows their hand. They too deserve it.


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January 18, 2012, 11:46:54 AM
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I feel good enough the reality isn't hurting the honest people, even in a free market. I even questioned myself whether I can justify the profits from a negative-sum game. It's the people who love Bitcoinica that make the project going.

There are a lot of both money-making and value-generating opportunities out there, and I don't want to spend my energy on exploiting other people.

Reality of course hurts honest people all the time. The reason I don't like your service is that it induces volatility, which hurts honest merchants. They may or may not be able to live with it but they get hurt all the same. If volatility is not going down, the future of Bitcoin looks very bleak indeed. If every night were like last night, Bitcoin would be dead in a few months. Your game is bad for almost everyone.

I really wish someone with deep pockets stepped in and imposed exchange rates by simply outgunning your service. (Can't belive I am saying that). Because only when vola goes down, businesses who don't care whether Bitcoin is cool but only want to sell their stuff without trouble with payment will be able to step in.

On the question of whether gamblers get ripped off, I don't mind at all. They deserve it. Just like online poker players who think it impossible that they play against the sysadmin who knows their hand. They too deserve it.



Bitcoin is never stable until we get to at least $100. It's not volatile on one day doesn't mean it's not volatile forever. Bitcoinica has nothing to do with volatility. I admit the correlation is there, but definitely not causation. Bitcoinica doesn't induce volatility out of thin air.

If you have $10,000 you can try to buy all you can on Bitcoinica and see what happens. The market never spikes. Any sudden spike must not come from Bitcoinica, because forced liquidation in a quiet market isn't possible. The trigger must be something else.

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January 18, 2012, 11:49:10 AM
 #13


I feel good enough the reality isn't hurting the honest people, even in a free market. I even questioned myself whether I can justify the profits from a negative-sum game. It's the people who love Bitcoinica that make the project going.

There are a lot of both money-making and value-generating opportunities out there, and I don't want to spend my energy on exploiting other people.

Reality of course hurts honest people all the time. The reason I don't like your service is that it induces volatility, which hurts honest merchants. They may or may not be able to live with it but they get hurt all the same. If volatility is not going down, the future of Bitcoin looks very bleak indeed. If every night were like last night, Bitcoin would be dead in a few months. Your game is bad for almost everyone.

I really wish someone with deep pockets stepped in and imposed exchange rates by simply outgunning your service. (Can't belive I am saying that). Because only when vola goes down, businesses who don't care whether Bitcoin is cool but only want to sell their stuff without trouble with payment will be able to step in.

On the question of whether gamblers get ripped off, I don't mind at all. They deserve it. Just like online poker players who think it impossible that they play against the sysadmin who knows their hand. They too deserve it.



It seems to me that you think too short term, or are overly confident in your own pet theory. As has been said elsewhere, BTC is clearly not ready for prime time right now. The volatility attracts people who would otherwise be uninterested in it at this point, which could lead to more awareness of the cryptocurrency concept, use as currency, etc. On what, exactly, are you basing your theory that this is a long term negative? Despite numerous posts saying things like "constant volatility would lead to bitcoin being dead within a few months", your basis for this not clear to me. Have you seen the charts of the USD buying power early on? It appears to me that volatility is natural, and the artificial hampering of this has its own problems.
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January 18, 2012, 12:12:29 PM
 #14

Bitcoinica is just a tool, much like a gun.  Let's try our best not to misuse it.

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January 18, 2012, 12:29:16 PM
 #15

I agree they shouldn't be a nanny. I didn't understand it or the implications of margin trading with manipulators around so I didn't use it. I really don't see what is so difficult about that for some people. I also don't really understand the bitcoin protocol. If there is a flaw exposed and my BTC become worthless, I will be ok, that's just how it goes. Really I think the cryptocurrency idea is here to stay either way. Maybe people who were around before the exchanges see it differently.
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January 18, 2012, 12:31:06 PM
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Bitcoin is never stable until we get to at least $100. It's not volatile on one day doesn't mean it's not volatile forever. Bitcoinica has nothing to do with volatility. I admit the correlation is there, but definitely not causation. Bitcoinica doesn't induce volatility out of thin air.

If you have $10,000 you can try to buy all you can on Bitcoinica and see what happens. The market never spikes. Any sudden spike must not come from Bitcoinica, because forced liquidation in a quiet market isn't possible. The trigger must be something else.

This isn't correlation, this is amplification. Which is what leveraging is all about. I agree with you that forced liquidations have nothing to do with Bitcoinica and everything to do with gullible gamblers. That doesn't make business easier for merchants, though.  We'll never get to a stable $100 unless ppl start *using* Bitcoin. And merchants and their customers are those who will build the Bitcoin economy. Or not, if you keep scaring them away.

As has been said elsewhere, BTC is clearly not ready for prime time right now.

That much is obvious. But what is less obvious to me is how inducing mad volatility is helping to get there. Please explain.


Bitcoinica is just a tool, much like a gun.  Let's try our best not to misuse it.

That's my whole point. Bitcoinica is a tool like most weapons. They should not be used at all. To what good use can you put a gun, say, an M2 in the civilized world? Bitcoinica should be treated like an M2. Hmmm, considering leveraging, it's maybe more like Czar Bomba. As powerful, as useless.

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January 18, 2012, 01:10:54 PM
 #17

Bitcoin will always be volatile unless it conquers the world, this shouldn't really be a problem for merchants though except for the few minutes when the market is going crazy like today.
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January 18, 2012, 01:14:15 PM
 #18

Too many people believed the 'only way is up'.  Day after day we would see messages on this forum along the lines of '$6 tomorrow!', followed up 'here comes $7!' and finally '$8 right around the corner!'.  So many people believed in the supposed inevitability of ever higher prices following the bounce from $2 that they got ahead of themselves and used great leverage through Bitcoinica.

Many people got burned by the recent price action.  Not just people who over leveraged, but those who traded bitcoins with their own money.  It was difficult to trade when the price swung 10% within minutes and orders were executed with lag times of at times 30 minutes or more.  MtGox was choking on the volume, yet again.

My point is that a minority of Bitcoinica users can causes losses and great instability for the majority who may never use the service.  Speculators who are making profits by feeding the wild swings are defecating in the river from which they drink.




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January 18, 2012, 01:46:36 PM
 #19

Price is only a dollar lower than yesterday, how does that hurt anyone besides speculators and people leveraged on bitcoinica?
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January 18, 2012, 02:10:16 PM
 #20

Price is only a dollar lower than yesterday, how does that hurt anyone besides speculators and people leveraged on bitcoinica?

Surely you are joking. Bitcoin lost 20% in a single day. That's bad enough - puts it in a league with pennystock in the eye of the beholder. Worse is that it was like an epileptic seizure. I mean going between 4.64 and 6.95 within minutes! Doubt this will inspire much confidence  in everyone watching.

The good news is that a number of gamblers got bloodied up good. As Vandroiy said before: That's the silver lining.


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