Fractional Reserve Lending IS NOT bad - its unavoidable

[solarion]

You said fractional reserve is impossible with "sound money." I went on to make a fool of myself...

Ah thanks. That's not even close to what I said. If you're going to just skim the thread while paying little attention, please feel free to ignore my posts. The concept I was failing to convey clearly required more attention than you were willing to give it.

After all the very same NON governmental "authority" setting interest rates also "prints" the nation's currency, which it then lends to congress with interest.

This sentence does NOT refer to FRB. Either you're not paying attention or you're way over your head.

n/m You're plainly lost.

[NotLambchop]

So you're saying because people steal gold is bad? ...or you're saying because people fell for the concept of gold deposit slips that therefore gold is bad?

JUST SPELL IT OUT MAN.

No.  You're saying that fractional reserve is impossible with "sound money."  I explained that fractional reserve was used, and originated with, "sound money," i.e. gold.

I'm beginning to suspect that you suffer from serious, dangerous organic brain disorder, requiring messy invasive surgery, followed massive doses of powerful psychotropics.
Please tell me that you feel safe and will call 911 as soon as things become unmanageable?

All kidding aside, I worry for you, solarion.

[solarion]

No.  You're saying that fractional reserve is impossible with "sound money."

Please quote me saying that, with or without the "B" for banking.

I'm beginning to get a little worried for you too bro. Are you on any prescription meds?

[NotLambchop]

Shhh.  I'm a friend, solarion.  You're surrounded by friends.  
Now, if you feel up to it, tell me why you disabled your activity light?



Do you sometimes feel that government men are watching you, stalking you, following your every move?
It's OK to talk, it's just us friends.  Did government men ...touch you?

[solarion]

blah blah forget that I made a fool of myself blah blah

I'd change the subject if I were as far out of my depth as you are too bud. Don't sweat it.

[NotLambchop]

I'll repost this for you, but promise not to hurt yourself tonight.  Promise?

You said fractional reserve is impossible with "sound money."  I showed you wrong.  Your inability to such basics is, frankly, worrying
I gave you some bright red font, see if that helps.  If not, there are plenty of promising careers in ditch-digging and fryer management.
.

...This wouldn't be possible with a sound currency. You cannot simply whip up an extra trillion gold certificates as someone may well try to exchange those certificates for gold you do not have.

Fractional-reserve banking predates the existence of governmental monetary authorities and originated many centuries ago in bankers' realization that generally not all depositors demand payment at the same time.[5]

Savers looking to keep their valuables in safekeeping depositories deposited gold and silver at goldsmiths, receiving in exchange a note for their deposit (see Bank of Amsterdam). These notes gained acceptance as a medium of exchange for commercial transactions and thus became as an early form of circulating paper money.

-- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fractional_reserve_banking

...and yet

*Now tell me, Do you sometimes feel that government men are watching you, stalking you, following your every move?
Did government men ...touch you?

[solarion]

I'll repost this for you, but promise not to hurt yourself tonight.  Promise?

You said fractional reserve is impossible with "sound money."  I showed you wrong.  Your inability to such basics is, frankly, worrying
I gave you some bright red font, see if that helps.  If not, there are plenty of promising careers in ditch-digging and fryer management.
.

...This wouldn't be possible with a sound currency. You cannot simply whip up an extra trillion gold certificates as someone may well try to exchange those certificates for gold you do not have.

Fractional-reserve banking predates the existence of governmental monetary authorities and originated many centuries ago in bankers' realization that generally not all depositors demand payment at the same time.[5]

Savers looking to keep their valuables in safekeeping depositories deposited gold and silver at goldsmiths, receiving in exchange a note for their deposit (see Bank of Amsterdam). These notes gained acceptance as a medium of exchange for commercial transactions and thus became as an early form of circulating paper money.

-- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fractional_reserve_banking

...and yet

*Now tell me, Do you sometimes feel that government men are watching you, stalking you, following your every move?
Did government men ...touch you?

You may repost that comment as many times as you like...in any color you wish, but it's not magically going to say what you seem to think it does...even out of context. The repulsive relationship between the federal reserve and congress critters is not fractional reserve banking. The fact that you think it has anything at all to do with FRB indicates that you do not understand the principles of expansionary monetary(currency) policy or how banks function.

We are all living in an increasingly oppressive police state in which millions of arcane laws, codes, and regulations are intentionally written with ambiguous meanings so that as many as possible can be charged at any given time with any number of "crimes". It's been estimated that in the US, an average American unknowingly commits 3 felonies/day.  

If you're asking if I personally feel singled out by government parasites, then the answer is no.

[NotLambchop]

So tell me what you were trying to say here, and put it in context.  Keeping in mind the topic of this thread, "Fractional Reserve Banking."

What is it that can not be done with "sound money"?

...This wouldn't be possible with a sound currency. You cannot simply whip up an extra trillion gold certificates as someone may well try to exchange those certificates for gold you do not have.

[solarion]

So tell me what you were trying to say here, and put it in context.  Keeping in mind the topic of this thread, "Fractional Reserve Banking."

What is it that can not be done with "sound money"?

...This wouldn't be possible with a sound currency. You cannot simply whip up an extra trillion gold certificates as someone may well try to exchange those certificates for gold you do not have.

I realize it can be fun to quote people out of context, but if you simply read the paragraph you're so fond of, in it's entirety I believe it's actually pretty clearly written. As to your reminder of the topic, you'd do well to recognize that the comment you seem to want to pick through and erroneously cite as some great grotcha, was a response to a comment someone else made. It had nothing whatsoever to do with you, though you've used it to illustrate, very effectively, that you do not understand the subject material of this thread.

I missed this post previously.

While I agree that absurdly low(artificially low is how I usually refer to it) interest rates are a huge problem, as it doesn't allow for a price discovery mechanism to operate, brutally punishes savers, and rewards gamblers, this isn't the whole problem. After all the very same NON governmental "authority" setting interest rates also "prints" the nation's currency, which it then lends to congress with interest. Plainly there's no legitimate reason to do this as congress is granted the authority to print our currency directly without interest, which is why there's a US treasury(they still stamp our coins). However if you're a politician in DC and you want to spend more than you're taking in it's fantastic, as you can inflate the budget to your heart's content and saddle future generations with that debt. This wouldn't be possible with a sound currency. You cannot simply whip up an extra trillion gold certificates as someone may well try to exchange those certificates for gold you do not have.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=604083.msg6695555#msg6695555

In case you still SOMEHOW do not get it...it's a conversation about the federal reserve...which is not federal and does not have any reserves. It has nothing whatsoever to do with secondary currency generation...otherwise known as fractional reserve banking.

[NotLambchop]

Now that you know our dark secret, that [my] Federal Reserve is not a branch of US [Reptilian] government, you leave us [me] no choice.
But just try bringing this [mine!] arcane knowledge to others of your kind.  All creatures that hear and crawl I've made deaf to your truth, solarion!
Bwahahahaha!
You're doomed, filthy Human!

*Now that you've derailed the topic from Fractional Reserve not being bad to Federal Reserve not being US government, I'd still like to get an answer:

...
What is it that can not be done with "sound money"?

...This wouldn't be possible with a sound currency. You cannot simply whip up an extra trillion gold certificates as someone may well try to exchange those certificates for gold you do not have.

@odolvlobo:  Don't be mean.

[twiifm]

http://www.federalreserve.gov/faqs/about_14986.htm

Federal Reserve is independent but subject to oversight by Congress.  It was created through The Federal Reserve Act sign into law by Woodrow Wilson in 1913.  Its nothing like a private bank like JPM Chase or Citibank.  Its the bank for these banks.

Get your facts straight before putting on that tinfoil hat

[solarion]

Are you two done? I don't think anyone cares what either of you have to say at this point.

Pretty sure ignore works.

[solarion]

http://www.federalreserve.gov/faqs/about_14986.htm

Federal Reserve is independent but subject to oversight by Congress.  It was created through The Federal Reserve Act sign into law by Woodrow Wilson in 1913.  Its nothing like a private bank like JPM Chase or Citibank.  Its the bank for these banks.

Get your facts straight before putting on that tinfoil hat

I do hope you're kidding with this post. If congress creatures had any interest at all in doing the job they were elected to do they wouldn't have single digit approval ratings.

[NotLambchop]

^
You seem bitter.
And undercooked.

Earthling

[RoadTrain]

While I agree that absurdly low(artificially low is how I usually refer to it) interest rates are a huge problem, as it doesn't allow for a price discovery mechanism to operate, brutally punishes savers, and rewards gamblers, this isn't the whole problem. After all the very same NON governmental "authority" setting interest rates also "prints" the nation's currency, which it then lends to congress with interest. Plainly there's no legitimate reason to do this as congress is granted the authority to print our currency directly without interest, which is why there's a US treasury(they still stamp our coins). However if you're a politician in DC and you want to spend more than you're taking in it's fantastic, as you can inflate the budget to your heart's content and saddle future generations with that debt. This wouldn't be possible with a sound currency. You cannot simply whip up an extra trillion gold certificates as someone may well try to exchange those certificates for gold you do not have.

Nah. You don't seem to understand our current monetary system. That's become clear when you wrote this old "saddle future generations with debt" manthra.
Government debt is not a burden, it's a monetary instrument for the monetary system. That's why congress doesn't simply print the currency but issues debt. If it started printing, the Fed would have to start selling its own debt (net effect would be zero) or just let rates plunge to zero forever without the ability to raise them.

Also government debt is an asset for private sector. When government is running fiscal deficit, it isn't saddling future generations with debt, it provides current generation with an asset. Perfect credit risk free asset. Moreover only the government sector and the foreign sector are able to add net monetary assets to the domestic private sector. Government does it through deficit spending, the foreign sector does it through current account deficit (for the foreign sector).

You ignore the fact that it's impossible (well, only possible if you're dumb) to default on your own debt in your own currency.

If you imply that Fed is ruled by banksters then you imply that all government is too. But it's not a monetary problem, but a political one.

[Ozziecoin]

Of course the US can default on their own debt.  When the Chinese, Japanese and Germans stop accepting paper in return for real goods and services.

And why would they do that? Because the US isn't the world's policeman anymore.

Or maybe the Saudis decide to accept a digital coin they can trust.  Man, they could issue their own coin for oil.  OilCoin!  You heard it here first.

Get your head in and stick to the Blockchain!

[RoadTrain]

Of course the US can default on their own debt.  When the Chinese, Japanese and Germans stop accepting paper in return for real goods and services.

Yeah, and what are they supposed to accept instead?

[twiifm]

Its not possible unless dumb dumb Congress refuse to raise debt ceiling.  Which is political issue not monetary one.

Debt owed to foreigners are in form of bonds not goods & services

[RoadTrain]

Its not possible unless dumb dumb Congress refuse to raise debt ceiling.  Which is political issue not monetary one.

Debt owed to foreigners are in form of bonds not goods & services

True. Some guys here don't have an idea about national accounting, balance of payments, international investment position and stuff.

[Ozziecoin]

Of course the US can default on their own debt.  When the Chinese, Japanese and Germans stop accepting paper in return for real goods and services.

Yeah, and what are they supposed to accept instead?

Not your toilet paper mate.