Sia's Use of the Nxt AE

[Taek]

So, the Sia thread derailed a bit with a discussion about Nxt and it's skewed distribution of owners. I'm not sure I picked the best title but that idea is what seems to have started the discussion. I've continued it here.

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Why did you decide go via the NXT AE?, that method enriches/favors NXT holders and means putting in additional steps to buy the shares for investors who aren't holding NXT. and additional steps for the issuer to cashout to BTC. It's a tedious process to sell often via BTER and means taking haircuts either side if the liquidity is not there . Basically a lose/lose unless you as issuer are planning on accumulating NXT or a buyer already rich in NXT

I want to invest in SIA but don't want to hold NXT because the distribution method is one of the most disproportionately skewed to few individuals in recent memory (early NXT IPO backers, some presumably who used socks to register multiple stakes have already profitted enough), I would rather not support that in any way. You could of made a BTC denominated offering directly using CounterParty (without requirement for any XCP token) and open ownership of siastock to whole crypto community, without having to sell the shares in background via PM's and undertake complicated manual book-keeping to ensure you don't oversell shares and so forth.. Addtionally because that method is on-top of bitcoin blockchain it will be transparent and auditable for anyone to look at so there will be no cries of fraud like with maidsafe IPO.. An example of an IPO issuance on counterparty is below http://blockscan.com/assetInfo.aspx?q=ROCKMINER

Allow me to weigh in. Nxt is simple, clean, easy to use, and has an active community. The most painful part of the process has been trading Nxt for Bitcoin, and the second most painful part of the process has been micromanaging the Bitcoin deals. To me, it seems like Nxt was a great choice. There aren't many established alternatives (MaidSAFE used Mastercoin, and we considered that), but the biggest advantage is the public price of the exchange. I didn't have to make my own cryptocurrency, and getting Nxt has been painless enough for everyone who's purchased so far.

At a market cap of some $30,000,000, I don't see how you can be complaining about distribution. With new technology, there will always be early adopters and they will see extra benefits for being first to the market. If you think that Nxt has a real chance at becoming worth hundreds of millions or billions of dollars, you should buy some. Post a notice that you are buying at 0.0001 btc each and I'm sure you'll have 10,000,000 in no time. That puts you right next to the other largest holders of Nxt.

The great thing about Nxt is that they're actively moving the currency forward. The AE is like 3 days old. You can't copy-paste innovation. It's a process, and Nxt is alive an well. NEM has about as much of a chance as Litecoin, will always be trailing in second place.

Like msin said, you don't need to get involved with Nxt to participate in the IPO. You can send me Bitcoins and get marked down in a spreadsheet and let me manage it. It's not nearly as fancy, but it's pretty much how the IPO would have gone without Nxt. And then you can claim the Sianotes at any time, and I'll be in touch with you when Sia is complete to give you your Siastock.

I know the distribution seems a bit skewed, but that's mostly because of how new it is. I don't think any cryptocurrency will ever be as seriously skewed as Bitcoin. The other thing as that people seem to be worried about one cryptocurrency becoming the primary cryptocurrency of the human race. That's not going to happen. Look at how much has changed in the space already. It'll take decades for any single cryptocurrency to get that large, and nobody is going to be happy using decades old technology.

[Anotheranonlol]

My argument was simple-- why a requirement for a proprietary token? when bitcoin itself is the most liquid, universally known and accepted unit of currency on the market. for non holders of NXT looking to buy in siastock they have to convert BTC into NXT on exchange, for asset issuer they have to place sell orders on exchange to buy back the btc which they wanted to acquire in the first place? just why...   I hold MSC but was not a fan of maidsafe accepting MSC for MSC IPO. Because what that was was a calculated move by some high profile MSC holders, Brock pierce, david johnston etc. to enrich themselves.

I hold XCP but would not be happy if they allowed/favoured sales for XCP. For a fair IPO you'd use the a decentralised exchange protocol as a distribution mechanism and use the familiar BTC to allow anyone to take part. And yes as you mentioned earlier I know that's already possible, and so if I'm investing that's what I'll be doing. now shutting up

[farl4web]

Love your story! Nxt is very exciting!

[Anotheranonlol]

NXT is currently the most decentralized, sophisticated platform for peer-to-peer distribution and exchange.

No it's not, you're thinking of CounterParty (XCP) there.

[Ezravdb]

NXT is currently the most decentralized, sophisticated platform for peer-to-peer distribution and exchange.

No it's not, you're thinking of CounterParty (XCP) there.

Much butthurt

So they are now also registering on this forum

[PL_CoinTrader]

People will always complain about the bad distribution of NXT or even call it scam. But they overlook some facts. First, everybody could have joined the IPO but nobody did. Probably because nobody trusted in this concept at that time or thought it was scam which is understandable but it doesn't changes the fact that it's not NXTs fault that so few people attended in the IPO. Another fact: Although the concept of mining seems fair it isn't. We know that the distribution of Bitcoin is as bad as in NXT. The reason is that only a few early adopters/miner had large amounts of btc and now they can buy in any different crypto with promising features/future. Theoretically you can start mine yourself but if you want make serious amounts of money you have to put thousands, even ten-thousands dollars into mining hardware which is useless after a time. I wished the distribution of NXT would be better, too. But in fact there is almost no crypto which has a good distribution. And also everybody had enough time to buy cheap NXT. Also now it's pretty cheap. The most stakeholder would have surely sold large amounts of NXT if the demand was there and thus the price wouldn't crash because of a large cashout.

[Anotheranonlol]

NXT is currently the most decentralized, sophisticated platform for peer-to-peer distribution and exchange.

No it's not, you're thinking of CounterParty (XCP) there.

Much butthurt

So they are now also registering on this forum

It's not butthurt,nor opinions, just the reality.  Counterparty is the most mature implementation of a distributed, decentralised marketplace/exchange platform to date. NXT AE's feature set doesn't come close. whether that means it won't be successful I wouldn't argue. it's like betamax, vcr. market will choose.

[utopianfuture]

NXT is currently the most decentralized, sophisticated platform for peer-to-peer distribution and exchange.

No it's not, you're thinking of CounterParty (XCP) there.

Much butthurt

So they are now also registering on this forum

It's not butthurt,nor opinions, just the reality.  Counterparty is the most mature implementation of a distributed, decentralised marketplace/exchange platform to date. NXT AE's feature set doesn't come close. whether that means it won't be successful I wouldn't argue. it's like betamax, vcr. market will choose.

10 minute block is a deal breaker for a lot of people. I told  County Party team since the start of OP_80 debate that they should really move to a different blockchain that could give the most useful functionality to the technology. There is a reason why XCP never really took off. 

[Anotheranonlol]

NXT is currently the most decentralized, sophisticated platform for peer-to-peer distribution and exchange.

No it's not, you're thinking of CounterParty (XCP) there.

Much butthurt

So they are now also registering on this forum

It's not butthurt,nor opinions, just the reality.  Counterparty is the most mature implementation of a distributed, decentralised marketplace/exchange platform to date. NXT AE's feature set doesn't come close. whether that means it won't be successful I wouldn't argue. it's like betamax, vcr. market will choose.

10 minute block is a deal breaker for a lot of people. I told  County Party team since the start of OP_80 debate that they should really move to a different blockchain that could give the most useful functionality to the technology. There is a reason why XCP never really took off.  

Moving to an alternate, less battle tested blockchain would mean you don't get the security benefits of the immense hashpower backing up BTC's proof-of-work. LTC is worse if you know about some of the projects in the pipeline there and who already owns majority of hashing power.. Many other cryptos are flash in the pans who's blockchain can't be relied on at this stage.. NXT would hardly be suitable to overlay decentralised market ontop of, even for the sole reason it's offering an asset exchange itself. what blockchain would you propose?

I agree though 10 min is a  deal breaker for many. it certainly feels like a step backwards for most who are used to 'high frequency' centralised exchanges, but then it's not supposed to compete with them.  It's ideal because nobody can 'close' Counterparty like BTCT or Bitfunder was closed. You don't have to trust the exchange issuer not to run off with your funds like the cocksuckers at gox.. It's ideal for instance when you want to convert BTC to gold to escape BTC's volatility. you can then trade that gold on market and back into BTC. . It's perfect in many other ways. For instance you look to auction NEM stakes or start a company and distribute shares, pay dividends. you don't need instant confirmations for those applications.

Personally I feel that most who are frustrated with 10min wait would be frustrated with a 3 minute wait, a 1 minute wait and so on and so forth too and that in general the market is not ready for decentralised exchanges just as they were not ready for decentralised currencys few years ago. (and still most beyond this forum are not even ready for decentralised currencys).

[utopianfuture]

NXT is currently the most decentralized, sophisticated platform for peer-to-peer distribution and exchange.

No it's not, you're thinking of CounterParty (XCP) there.

Much butthurt

So they are now also registering on this forum

It's not butthurt,nor opinions, just the reality.  Counterparty is the most mature implementation of a distributed, decentralised marketplace/exchange platform to date. NXT AE's feature set doesn't come close. whether that means it won't be successful I wouldn't argue. it's like betamax, vcr. market will choose.

10 minute block is a deal breaker for a lot of people. I told  County Party team since the start of OP_80 debate that they should really move to a different blockchain that could give the most useful functionality to the technology. There is a reason why XCP never really took off.  

Moving to an alternate, less battle tested blockchain would mean you don't get the security benefits of the immense hashpower backing up BTC's proof-of-work. LTC is worse if you know about some of the projects in the pipeline there and who already owns majority of hashing power.. Many other cryptos are flash in the pans who's blockchain can't be relied on at this stage.. NXT would hardly be suitable to overlay decentralised market ontop of, even for the sole reason it's offering an asset exchange itself. what blockchain would you propose?

I agree though 10 min is a  deal breaker for many. it certainly feels like a step backwards for most who are used to 'high frequency' centralised exchanges, but then it's not supposed to compete with them.  It's ideal because nobody can 'close' Counterparty like BTCT or Bitfunder was closed. You don't have to trust the exchange issuer not to run off with your funds like the cocksuckers at gox.. It's ideal for instance when you want to convert BTC to gold to escape BTC's volatility. you can then trade that gold on market and back into BTC. . It's perfect in many other ways. For instance you look to auction NEM stakes or start a company and distribute shares, pay dividends. you don't need instant confirmations for those applications.

Personally I feel that most who are frustrated with 10min wait would be frustrated with a 3 minute wait, a 1 minute wait and so on and so forth too and that in general the market is not ready for decentralised exchanges just as they were not ready for decentralised currencys few years ago. (and still most beyond this forum are not even ready for decentralised currencys).

Moving to Litecoin is much better and I think Litecoin team would be happy to accommodate. An asset exchange first of all is an exchange, confirmation time is very important.

[Anotheranonlol]

Moving to Litecoin is much better and I think Litecoin team would be happy to accommodate. An asset exchange first of all is an exchange, confirmation time is very important.

Do you have some idea of who controls > 50% of LTC network? It's single entity. yet no shocked articles like how everyone was up in arms about ghash.io potentially making double spends.  Some suppliers have more than 100% of the total network hashrate ready to be brought online in coming months. I'm shocked LTC has lasted so long when the fundamental premise of it (providing resistance to centralised farms of specialised mining equipment) has publically been proven to be broken. Now it's offers nothing unique just a group of people proclaiming somehow it's the silver to btc's gold and therefore it deserves a market cap of hundreds of millions.

It's more centralised than BTC. the only thing that will decentralise it a little is thousands of greedy miners stocking up on the latest ASICS at xxxx% markup from manafacturer and lining their pockets. We've gone inceptions style. The manafacturers are printing money printing machines and they are the real winners here.

.A 2-3 minute confirmation time will hardly win over many users. 10 min for them is too much, 3 minutes is too much. they perhaps wan't instant orderbook matches.

[Anotheranonlol]

I agree though 10 min is a  deal breaker for many. it certainly feels like a step backwards for most who are used to 'high frequency' centralised exchanges, but then it's not supposed to compete with them.  It's ideal because nobody can 'close' Counterparty like BTCT or Bitfunder was closed. You don't have to trust the exchange issuer not to run off with your funds like the cocksuckers at gox.. It's ideal for instance when you want to convert BTC to gold to escape BTC's volatility. you can then trade that gold on market and back into BTC. . It's perfect in many other ways. For instance you look to auction NEM stakes or start a company and distribute shares, pay dividends. you don't need instant confirmations for those applications.

Personally I feel that most who are frustrated with 10min wait would be frustrated with a 3 minute wait, a 1 minute wait and so on and so forth too and that in general the market is not ready for decentralised exchanges just as they were not ready for decentralised currencys few years ago. (and still most beyond this forum are not even ready for decentralised currencys).

Haha that makes no sense. NXT has 1 minute block times and is developing a protocol for instant transactions. The world may not be ready for decentralized exchanges, but somebody has to do the work of making it ready. That's what NXT is doing while everyone else stays bound to obsolete 1st gen protocols.

I'd rather be in something like NEM than NXT. As far as I'm concerned the NXT technology is great but the distribution models too flawed to even consider taking part in. Being open source the community can decide whether NXT with fixed distribution model has more long term merit.

[r0ach]

Do you have some idea of who controls > 50% of LTC network?

I think LTC network will almost mirror BTC in the future after the ASIC dust settles.  Why wouldn't it?  There's no reason to believe it won't.

[Daedelus]

I agree though 10 min is a  deal breaker for many. it certainly feels like a step backwards for most who are used to 'high frequency' centralised exchanges, but then it's not supposed to compete with them.  It's ideal because nobody can 'close' Counterparty like BTCT or Bitfunder was closed. You don't have to trust the exchange issuer not to run off with your funds like the cocksuckers at gox.. It's ideal for instance when you want to convert BTC to gold to escape BTC's volatility. you can then trade that gold on market and back into BTC. . It's perfect in many other ways. For instance you look to auction NEM stakes or start a company and distribute shares, pay dividends. you don't need instant confirmations for those applications.

Personally I feel that most who are frustrated with 10min wait would be frustrated with a 3 minute wait, a 1 minute wait and so on and so forth too and that in general the market is not ready for decentralised exchanges just as they were not ready for decentralised currencys few years ago. (and still most beyond this forum are not even ready for decentralised currencys).

Haha that makes no sense. NXT has 1 minute block times and is developing a protocol for instant transactions. The world may not be ready for decentralized exchanges, but somebody has to do the work of making it ready. That's what NXT is doing while everyone else stays bound to obsolete 1st gen protocols.

I'd rather be in something like NEM than NXT. As far as I'm concerned the NXT technology is great but the distribution models too flawed to even consider taking part in. Being open source the community can decide whether NXT with fixed distribution model has more long term merit.

What is Nxt's distribution model?

[ChuckOne]

Do you have some idea of who controls > 50% of LTC network? It's single entity. yet no shocked articles like how everyone was up in arms about ghash.io potentially making double spends.  Some suppliers have more than 100% of the total network hashrate ready to be brought online in coming months. I'm shocked LTC has lasted so long when the fundamental premise of it (providing resistance to centralised farms of specialised mining equipment) has publically been proven to be broken. Now it's offers nothing unique just a group of people proclaiming somehow it's the silver to btc's gold and therefore it deserves a market cap of hundreds of millions.

Where did you get this data from? I am a bit shocked about this.

[r0ach]

Some suppliers have more than 100% of the total network hashrate ready to be brought online in coming months.

And when BTC ASIC were invented...some suppliers probably had 10,000% of the network hashrate ready to be brought online lol.

What kind of ridiculous statement was that supposed to be.

[ChuckOne]

Hey, do not quote me when it is not from me.

[Anotheranonlol]

Some suppliers have more than 100% of the total network hashrate ready to be brought online in coming months.

And when BTC ASIC were invented...some suppliers probably had 10,000% of the network hashrate ready to be brought online lol.

What kind of ridiculous statement was that supposed to be.

10,000 is exagerration. NRE costs for all these manafacturers are paid off. 1.5 million $ investment 3 months ago will reap at least 10 times that. they are printing money printing machines, selling them at great markup, and then printing more & printing money themselves in big farms to dilute the ability of whoever purchased the machines to print their own!, 2 of the biggest money printing machine makers join forces now you have a cartel, perfectly executed scam and although LTC was purpotedly GPU/ASIC proof conveniently devs don't want to hard fork to an actual ASIC proof POW function.. perhaps they got nice paycheck for that decision.

pool op can decide he want to double-spend and who cares? because it's just LTC. nothing valuable to double spend, even months ago gridchip say they can 51% attack. but of course it makes no economic sense. This is not a secure blockchain that is the point which was being talked about.

The greedy logic of ltc holders comes up with their idea that since ASICS are coming en masse then price automatically increase proportional to diff just like BTC.  all they have to do is wait.. the easiest investment ever. especially if you missed the btc train. Here's another chance at the gold rush is what they think.. except it's already priced into market by insiders long ago hence the massive run up out of nowhere. So let's imagine price increase 2x. to around 600 million $ market cap.. all the while you are  getting dumps by miners to either recoup what they are paying for purchase of hardware + electricity or big farms who don't really care, they'll take anything and dump consistently since they've broken even already.

Do you know how much is needed to sustain current price with market cap of 600mill, or another 2x increase to 1.2 bill? you can get buy support from those cashing out of btc into ltc but then btc gets dragged down and when btc is down ltc down too because ltc is NOT free floating. unlike those who claim its the silver to btcs gold ..that's no good. so where's all the fiat inflow gonna come from and why would it be coming.. the infrastructure is piggybacking btc like a leech but no serious player accepts LTC. nothing serious on the horizon. It's barely a step above doge in legitimacy when you step back and take a look, despite being around for years.

All it's doing is diluting cryptocurrency economy. It doesn't offer anything anymore- you try and explain one real tangible benefits you would invest in ltc over btc... hell most of these new alts offer more than ltc.. a broken POW function and '2nd mover advantage' from being copy paste of fairbrix and tenebrix is what we have with ltc..somehow that justifies a 600 million $ cap?? give me  a break.. funds that could go towards supporting btc is wasted on ltc.

[Djinou94]

So Sia is a good asset if i want to invest ?

[r0ach]

This is not a secure blockchain that is the point which was being talked about.

Of course it's not secure on the first 1 day of ASIC distribution.  Once Ghash, KNC, and everyone else has LTC farms, it will be the exact same thing as Bitcoin.  Stop pretending like there's anything different that somehow makes BTC more secure.  You give some crazy, biased argument about how you want people to buy your BTC that you mined years ago instead of buying LTC instead.  In a rational world, the price of LTC should increase while BTC goes down as the two network sizes get closer together.  Most likely both will increase though.