On the Solidcoin Economic Changes

[Syke]

Hypothetical situation: Gavin releases BIP 16 anyways, and the merchants download the new client. Some miners also download it, so the old clients become isolated from the new network. How do you cope?

Developer releases new version, people choose to upgrade? Is that supposed to be scary? That's how Bitcoin has been working all along.

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[dree12]

Hypothetical situation: Gavin releases BIP 16 anyways, and the merchants download the new client. Some miners also download it, so the old clients become isolated from the new network. How do you cope?

Developer releases new version, people choose to upgrade? Is that supposed to be scary? That's how Bitcoin has been working all along.

With all the hype, and some posts by theymos and genjix, I was under the impression that BIP16 would bring a chain split. Gmaxwell cleared that up for me, and I apologize for anything negative I might have posted.

[localhost]

Yeah it's the old tasty argument of "SolidCoin is centralized Bitcoin isn't" . Like the trust nodes in SolidCoin somehow make it sooooo much different than deepbit and btcguild controlling Bitcoin. Might as well call deepbit trust node 1 and btcguild trust node 2. Because you are trusting them to not attack Bitcoin..

Not that I'm saying deepbit or btcguild will do an attack but if you can't see Bitcoin users are TRUSTING these two pools not to then you can't argue any centralization aspect against SolidCoin with a clear conscience.

Miners actually give the pools their trust when they mine on that pool. If the pool misplaces that trust, miners will leave the pool. This is similar to voting a politician into office to represent the people in a democracy. Just look at the miners that left Eligius when Luke-Jr used it to attack CoiledCoin. Granted since this wasn't an attack on Bitcoin, most of the miners didn't care and stayed with Eligius. If deepbit, or any other pool tries to attack Bitcoin, you can bet that they will lose their hashrate immediately.

I wouldn't be that sure. There might well be a large bunch of clueless people who just mine there without really caring. If they did care they wouldn't mine in a pool which has enough power to kind of veto the network.

[CoinHunter]

Miners actually give the pools their trust when they mine on that pool. If the pool misplaces that trust, miners will leave the pool. This is similar to voting a politician into office to represent the people in a democracy. Just look at the miners that left Eligius when Luke-Jr used it to attack CoiledCoin. Granted since this wasn't an attack on Bitcoin, most of the miners didn't care and stayed with Eligius. If deepbit, or any other pool tries to attack Bitcoin, you can bet that they will lose their hashrate immediately.

Yes because miners are that mobile.

Let me give you an example, SolidCoin block 180000 info was made public a week ago, and today we still have people unaware about the changes and wondering why their mining earnings are less than usual. Many miners do not check forums or "isbitcoinbeingattacked.com"

People will still be mining deepbit/whatever as it attacks for some length of time. You also won't be able to easily pinpoint which pool is attacking, deepbit could just be having some "maintenance issues" . So try proving that to someone. You must really live in some fantasy land where you think as soon as one bad block hits the network alarm bells will be going off! We know the attacker immediately! All miners will stop immediately! This sounds like 9/11 or something.

Oh and after all this goes down with one bad pool what happens? Well Bitcoin loses a lot of faith, but maybe it continues on like a zombie, just to have another pool claim the #1 throne and there we go again same problem. "But but we have p2poooool" Yeah watch that scale to about 500 clients before it bursts.

You didn't even notice LiteCoin was being "attacked" for 2 days, before criticizing the #2 cryptochain on how it's security works you should make sure your own bases are covered.

[CoinHunter]

Lets look at the two scenarios shall we?
Pool bad, people are free to leave the pool. Plus P2Pool is gaining ground so this issue is diminishing not growing.
Enforcer node bad, people are free to make forum posts about how they are trapped in a cryptocurrency controlled by one guy.

There's no difference to rogue trust nodes than Bitcoins rogue pools or rogue miners, except a rogue SC trust node CANNOT DOUBLE SPEED. The other difference is that to be a trust node you need a lot of investment in SolidCoins, to be a pool operator you need to pay $50 a month. The current people with trust nodes have invested a lot into SolidCoin, whether time, money, development, etc.

Several splinter groups have split off the forums and made their own place to discuss cryptocurrencies (yourself included).
Gavin can't shut down bitcoin with the alert key. He can only suggest that the network be shutdown by using the alert key. Furthermore I have just modded a bitcoin clone that completely ignores alerts. Gavin is now powerless to stop me with alerts. Welcome to free software.

Haha you really are bitter about how SolidCoin is more secure. Firstly why would I want to "shut down SolidCoin" ? I created it and I want it to prosper because it solves many problems facing the human species. The worst I could do is take the CPF money amounting ~130K, I cannot stop the network on my own because others operate nodes and will have to be "in on it" too. I cannot (or any other trust node) double spend because no client will accept it. SolidCoin actually is a good solution unlike Bitcoin, as it's protected against Banks and Governments just walking into a PC shop, buying 10000 GPUs and raping it.

"But they can just take out one guy"  . Firstly the keys are encrypted, the trust node ones in operation may not be but they don't know where the trust nodes are and who is running them. It's not just me. And to capture me , torture me, threaten me, to get the keys and locations is way beyond buying some hardware online. Secondly I have a layer between who they will think is "me" and the real me, I will have a small amount of time upon which I realize I am in danger and take precautions (ie get the F out of dodge). My hope is the NPO is running this risk soon instead of me though, don't get me wrong.

It is so much harder to "order a hit" and torture someone than it is to just spend fiat money they have created out of thin air and buy some GPUs/FPGA. If you can't understand that then there is nothing more to say. Keep living in your delusion where a little bit of money created out of thin air can't just collapse Bitcoin in a minute.

[coblee]

You didn't even notice LiteCoin was being "attacked" for 2 days, before criticizing the #2 cryptochain on how it's security works you should make sure your own bases are covered.

Where did you get this information from? You might want to double check your sources before you spread more FUD. I saw the Litecoin dust spam transactions immediately. It was very soon after gmaxwell's post.

[CoinHunter]

Where did you get this information from? You might want to double check your sources before you spread more FUD. I saw the Litecoin dust spam transactions immediately. It was very soon after gmaxwell's post.

Yah, you know a lot about FUD don't you. I'll have to submit to your excellent knowledge on the subject.

Can you please confirm the date between the first spam attack and that post so the proof is out there?

[coblee]

Where did you get this information from? You might want to double check your sources before you spread more FUD. I saw the Litecoin dust spam transactions immediately. It was very soon after gmaxwell's post.

Yah, you know a lot about FUD don't you. I'll have to submit to your excellent knowledge on the subject.

Can you please confirm the date between the first spam attack and that post so the proof is out there?

So it seems like you know a lot about this attack, huh? I wonder why.

[CoinHunter]

So it seems like you know a lot about this attack, huh? I wonder why.

Sure, because unlike you who doesn't pay attention to their chain this stuff interests me. I like making SolidCoin better, and even changed our max block size after seeing LiteCoin abused. Once that attack became public I looked at when it started and was surprised it was a relatively long time before it was announced, which made me realize you weren't "on the job". It's the truth right? Want to make up some more FUD ?

[coblee]

So it seems like you know a lot about this attack, huh? I wonder why.

Sure, because unlike you who doesn't pay attention to their chain this stuff interests me. I like making SolidCoin better, and even changed our max block size after seeing LiteCoin abused. Once that attack became public I looked at when it started and was surprised it was a relatively long time before it was announced, which made me realize you weren't "on the job". It's the truth right? Want to make up some more FUD ?

The attacker was testing the network for a few days before gmaxwell's post. He was sending various amounts of 0.1337 and some 0.00000001 around. It was after gmaxwell's post (or very close to that time) that his spams really started to impact the network, where he would send tons of 0.00000001 in each transaction. That was when I was alerted to the problem. His previous test transactions did not catch my attention as I don't spend my spare time looking at block explorer. So by your definition, that means I'm not "on the job", huh?

CoinHunter/RealSolid, you're a sad person. I feel sorry for you.

[k9quaint]

Lets look at the two scenarios shall we?
Pool bad, people are free to leave the pool. Plus P2Pool is gaining ground so this issue is diminishing not growing.
Enforcer node bad, people are free to make forum posts about how they are trapped in a cryptocurrency controlled by one guy.

There's no difference to rogue trust nodes than Bitcoins rogue pools or rogue miners, except a rogue SC trust node CANNOT DOUBLE SPEED. The other difference is that to be a trust node you need a lot of investment in SolidCoins, to be a pool operator you need to pay $50 a month. The current people with trust nodes have invested a lot into SolidCoin, whether time, money, development, etc.

Several splinter groups have split off the forums and made their own place to discuss cryptocurrencies (yourself included).
Gavin can't shut down bitcoin with the alert key. He can only suggest that the network be shutdown by using the alert key. Furthermore I have just modded a bitcoin clone that completely ignores alerts. Gavin is now powerless to stop me with alerts. Welcome to free software.

Haha you really are bitter about how SolidCoin is more secure. Firstly why would I want to "shut down SolidCoin" ? I created it and I want it to prosper because it solves many problems facing the human species.

You already shut it down once. It will probably be the same reason as before, a broken protocol due to poor design choices.

"But they can just take out one guy"  . Firstly the keys are encrypted, the trust node ones in operation may not be but they don't know where the trust nodes are and who is running them.It's not just me. And to capture me , torture me, threaten me, to get the keys and locations is way beyond buying some hardware online. Secondly I have a layer between who they will think is "me" and the real me, I will have a small amount of time upon which I realize I am in danger and take precautions (ie get the F out of dodge). My hope is the NPO is running this risk soon instead of me though, don't get me wrong.

It is so much harder to "order a hit" and torture someone than it is to just spend fiat money they have created out of thin air and buy some GPUs/FPGA. If you can't understand that then there is nothing more to say. Keep living in your delusion where a little bit of money created out of thin air can't just collapse Bitcoin in a minute.

Nobody said anything about capture and torture. Someone can just lift the keys off your computer, and *poof* your whole cryptocurrency dies. Oh, and all we have is your word that anyone other than you has control of an enforcer node. Again, it all comes back to just trusting some random dude on the internet. Bitcoin is rooted in mathematics, Solidcoin is rooted in the paranoia of a damaged mind. I prefer math.

[John (John K.)]

Lets look at the two scenarios shall we?
Pool bad, people are free to leave the pool. Plus P2Pool is gaining ground so this issue is diminishing not growing.
Enforcer node bad, people are free to make forum posts about how they are trapped in a cryptocurrency controlled by one guy.

There's no difference to rogue trust nodes than Bitcoins rogue pools or rogue miners, except a rogue SC trust node CANNOT DOUBLE SPEED. The other difference is that to be a trust node you need a lot of investment in SolidCoins, to be a pool operator you need to pay $50 a month. The current people with trust nodes have invested a lot into SolidCoin, whether time, money, development, etc.

Several splinter groups have split off the forums and made their own place to discuss cryptocurrencies (yourself included).
Gavin can't shut down bitcoin with the alert key. He can only suggest that the network be shutdown by using the alert key. Furthermore I have just modded a bitcoin clone that completely ignores alerts. Gavin is now powerless to stop me with alerts. Welcome to free software.

Haha you really are bitter about how SolidCoin is more secure. Firstly why would I want to "shut down SolidCoin" ? I created it and I want it to prosper because it solves many problems facing the human species.

You already shut it down once. It will probably be the same reason as before, a broken protocol due to poor design choices.

"But they can just take out one guy"  . Firstly the keys are encrypted, the trust node ones in operation may not be but they don't know where the trust nodes are and who is running them.It's not just me. And to capture me , torture me, threaten me, to get the keys and locations is way beyond buying some hardware online. Secondly I have a layer between who they will think is "me" and the real me, I will have a small amount of time upon which I realize I am in danger and take precautions (ie get the F out of dodge). My hope is the NPO is running this risk soon instead of me though, don't get me wrong.

It is so much harder to "order a hit" and torture someone than it is to just spend fiat money they have created out of thin air and buy some GPUs/FPGA. If you can't understand that then there is nothing more to say. Keep living in your delusion where a little bit of money created out of thin air can't just collapse Bitcoin in a minute.

Nobody said anything about capture and torture. Someone can just lift the keys off your computer, and *poof* your whole cryptocurrency dies. Oh, and all we have is your word that anyone other than you has control of an enforcer node. Again, it all comes back to just trusting some random dude on the internet. Bitcoin is rooted in mathematics, Solidcoin is rooted in the paranoia of a damaged mind. I prefer math.

One of the most revolutionary feature of Bitcoin is being decentralized and taking down the nodes in one country would only have a minimal inpact in other places. Under SC, there's this inherent problem of you dying suddenly and leaving your cryptocurrency to a certain death. What do you have to make us believe in you such as to base a whole currency after you?

[Explodicle]

Oh we can just ignore that glaring flaw because the NPO will handle it "eventually". Forget trying to find a firm date for that, since CoinHunter has no intention of actually giving up control until after he cashes out.

So either you trust an anonymous (but safe?) guy now, or trust a known and thus vulnerable entity "later". And without a transfer DATE, there is no "later", it's just BS to sidestep the issue and buy time.

[Syke]

Firstly why would I want to "shut down SolidCoin" ?

You've succeeded in driving away 2/3rds of the miners nearly overnight, so you must be trying to shut it down. Congrats, it's working.

[coblee]

Here were my thoughts on this last year:

SolidCoin is not a cryptocurrency, or at least by most people's definition of cryptocurrency. There's really no need for miners. SC miners do not secure the chain. That is already done by the trusted nodes. So miners are basically wasting their electricity.

Think about it this way... with Bitcoin, miners hash to secure the network and they get rewarded for the security that they are adding to the network. With SolidCoin, miners are just wasting electricity because RealSolid thinks that this is a fair way to handout SCs. It's similar to a King asking his peasants to run around in circles. The faster they run, the more coins they get. So of course, profit-driven peasants will run around in circles, which adds no value to anything. King RealSolid realized that he is passing out too many solidcoins this way, which will dilute his own holdings. So guess what, he decided to pass out only 5 SC (instead of 32 SC) to his loyal peasants for each circle they complete. Then what happens? Well there are less peasants running around in circles b/c it's not worth it anymore. But that doesn't matter to RealSolid, because peasants running around in circles doesn't add any value in the first place. Hmm...

Also, since the trusted nodes controls 50% of the blocks, by definition, you cannot do a 51% attack unless you have control of a trusted node.

It's great when you create all the rules for your own realm AND you actually find suckers willing to follow you.

No one should be surprised where it's headed... 32 -> 5 -> 0.07 -> 0

[doublec]

BIP16 transactions are simply accepted as valid by old clients. They can't become isolated due to this.

According to Gavin they can become isolated if someone mines a bad transaction. Is it a temporary isolation (duration only for that block)? Or was that issue fixed?

f an attacker DID manage to create a block with a timestamp after the switchover date and a bad /P2SH/ transaction in it, then some percentage of the network will try to build on that bad block.  Lets say 70% of hashing power supports /P2SH/.  That would mean only 70% of the network was working on a good block-chain, and the result would be transactions taking, on average, about 14 minutes to confirm instead of the usual 10 minutes.

[Starlightbreaker]

the idea of cross-mining pool is interesting though...but, at 50% the pay of btc PPS, and you have no clue where's the rest going to..

lemme guess, his pocket?

[Syke]

All existing SC owners prior to the change can now bail out at a price which is 5 times higher than a week ago. If they want to bail they can do so at a nice profit.

You called it all right. Everyone is bailing out. Here's the latest trades on btc-e.com:

02.02.12 07:59   Sell   0.00742   11.4348   0.08484621
02.02.12 07:59   Sell   0.00743   36   0.26748
02.02.12 07:59   Sell   0.0075   840.66   6.30495
02.02.12 07:58   Sell   0.0075   260.33   1.952475
02.02.12 07:57   Sell   0.0075   1899.01   14.242575
02.02.12 07:57   Sell   0.0075   1400   10.5
02.02.12 07:57   Sell   0.00751   554.345   4.16313095
02.02.12 07:57   Sell   0.0077   1940.22   14.939694
02.02.12 07:56   Sell   0.0077   0.43912   0.00338122
02.02.12 07:55   Sell   0.0077   1059.34   8.156918
02.02.12 07:55   Sell   0.00777   777   6.03729
02.02.12 07:55   Sell   0.007778   284.58   2.21346324
02.02.12 07:55   Sell   0.00781   595.177   4.64833237
02.02.12 07:55   Sell   0.00782   255.028   1.99431896
02.02.12 07:55   Sell   0.00783   28.879   0.22612257
02.02.12 07:55   Sell   0.00783   35   0.27405
02.02.12 07:54   Sell   0.00783   31   0.24273
02.02.12 07:54   Sell   0.00783   22   0.17226
02.02.12 07:53   Sell   0.00783   11   0.08613
02.02.12 07:33   Buy   0.009999   1   0.009999

And slc24.com:

01.02. 20:12:49    sell ►    0.007101    142.6113    1.01268284   
01.02. 18:17:58    sell ►    0.007101    139    0.987039   
01.02. 16:18:55    sell ►    0.007101    33    0.234333   
01.02. 16:17:10    sell ►    0.007101    230    1.63323   
01.02. 15:02:30    sell ►    0.007101    1995.734    14.17170713   
01.02. 15:01:22    sell ►    0.00751    526.9697    3.95754245   
01.02. 15:01:21    sell ►    0.00781    1818.1815    14.19999752   
01.02. 07:12:40    sell ►    0.00819    56    0.45864   
01.02. 03:54:05    sell ►    0.008    27.2044    0.2176352   
01.02. 03:50:34    sell ►    0.00782    166.2404    1.29999993   
01.02. 03:50:31    sell ►    0.00827    573.4949    4.74280282   
01.02. 03:50:29    sell ►    0.0085    117.4127    0.99800795   
01.02. 03:49:56    sell ►    0.00851    300    2.553   
31.01. 19:32:08    sell ►    0.00827    16.04    0.1326508   
31.01. 19:24:01    sell ►    0.00827    15.0737    0.1246595

Game over man, game over.

[Fuzzy]

Well the code has no strength if one person can change the code at will and force those changes unilaterally on the network.

Is every SolidCoin supporter completely retarded, or is it just me?

I hope it is me, because, as I understand it, the SOLE PURPOSE OF CRYPTO-CURRENCY IS DE-CENTRALIZATION.

How did SolidCoin ever gain traction when a single entity has proven capable of changing the fundamental rules of the currency such that a block reward has been reduced from 32 coins to 0.07 coins ( 1 / 457 th of the original ) within 6 months of its release?

What am I missing here?

[cunicula]

How did SolidCoin ever gain traction when a single entity has proven capable of changing the fundamental rules of the currency such that a block reward has been reduced from 32 coins to 0.07 coins ( 1 / 457 th of the original ) within 6 months of its release?

Why did people ever agree to work in the World Trade Towers when a single entity proved capable of destroying them in a matter of minutes?