Qora: Opening price & community building - how related?? Discussion thread

[Attack.of.the.Clones]

The previous Qora market thread was locked (censorship??)
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=612109.0 [this thread was locked but contains some good debate, worth reading]


Current OTC Qora exchange: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=613750.0


I promise to never censor any post, or close this thread. Let buyers & sellers state their cases here!


The opening price for Qora will obviously have a major influence on:
1 - future potential for volatility and boom bust cycle in the Qora price
2 - the growth of the Qora community
3 - the ability to attract new talent to help with dev work ,marketing, education, promotion etc

If the Qora IPO investors are not smart, and push for a starting price of 100 satoshi - 85x return - that leaves little room for early adopters, (who want to buy TODAY), to make a decent return. Without the prospect of a decent return why buy Qora when you can buy NXT which seems almost a certainty to go up steadily now.


Hypothetical time!

Can a coin with 137 initial founders survive if the SELLERS conspire to restrict supply to push up prices - not likely, SCAM SCAM SCAM

Can a coin survive if the BUYERS conspire to bid low, be patient, and wait for sellers to appear cashing in x20 return - YES YES YES (that's good business sense)

Buyers, join my open & public campaign to restrict ALL bids to under 40 satoshi for the good of Qora!

Save money, and save Qora at the same time - prevent a bubble and subsequent crash down the road.

Vote 1 - BUYERS MARKET



Some sellers are arguing for an OPENING price of 100 satoshi - x85 return for an escrowed investment with little risk.

I say that is too high, and will cause problems later. I don't care about fairness at all. I'm after a good price & a good community, and 100 satoshi is not smart.

With 100 satoshi as the opening price the first wave early adopters will need a marketcap of ~45 million USD to make a x10 return.

That's possible, but the market is crowded now with many 2nd gen quality coins, and Qora has a terrible initial distribution, and a tiny user base.

If the Qora community doesn't grow fast a Qora clone with a better distribution from something like a node distribution bot will kill Qora MK 1

I advocate common sense, and I do so in the loudest most attention seeking way I can. I want to influence as many buyers as I can.

IPO investors should consider selling part of their stake for ~25 satoshi for an excellent return of x25, and then first wave buyers need a marketcap of ~11 million to get a x10 return.

25 satoshi opening price will attract a lot of quality people to buy into Qora. 100 will cause a later crash.

BUYERS MARKET - DON"T PANIC BUY!

MANY SELLERS WILL ACCEPT x25 RETURN AND SELL FOR 25 SATOSHI

CURRENT PRICE IS @35

[Djinou94]

I'm agree and i WTB at 25 satoshi
Pm me

[Attack.of.the.Clones]

I'm agree and i WTB at 25 satoshi
Pm me

Go to the OTC exchange thread and place your bid - 25 satoshi is competitive.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=613750.0

Remember, many IPO investors still haven't received their coins yet, and some of those guys will take a x25 return on a portion of their Qora to hedge against a rapid implosion of Qora if the 100 sellers kill this coin stone dead.

Patience Buyers! No bids over 37 right now. Let's keep them under 40 at least. If you've got a sockpuppet or two put in a second/third bid at a lower price if you're worried of missing out. It's all part of the game! Once Qora gets on an exchange holding the price down will be too difficult but right now everyone will be using the OTC exchange, so buyers have the upper hand.

For inexperienced players note that many big holders will send you a PM and sell to a big juicy buy that's lower than the current top bid. Why? Because the smart sellers know to minimise their risk they need to sell some asap to hedge against implosion and a still born Qora.

Put up multiple bids with a big one (i.e. quantity not price) at the bottom end of your price range and you have a good chance of getting a Qora whale to trade with you. The whales will pick them off via PM.

If you make a trade like this - MAKE IT PUBLIC, so it effects the market - remember, it's your average buy that counts, so if you buy @25 and then later get lucky @15 or lower your average buy in is reduced, so the marketcap you need when you sell can be a lot lower for you to make a profit, should you decide to sell.

BUYERS MARKET, at least while all trades are on the OTC exchange

[Attack.of.the.Clones]

A few cracks have appeared (bids over 40) .... buyers, man the barricades, big bids @25 needed ASAP!

HOLD THE LINE BUYERS, REPAIR THE BREACH!

Remember, many IPO investors still haven't received their coins yet, and some of those guys will take a x25 return on a portion of their Qora to hedge against a rapid implosion of Qora if the 100 sellers kill this coin stone dead.

Patience Buyers! Let's get those bids back under 40 asap. If you've got a sockpuppet or two put in a second/third bid at a lower price if you're worried of missing out. It's all part of the game! Once Qora gets on an exchange holding the price down will be too difficult but right now everyone will be using the OTC exchange, so buyers have the upper hand.

For inexperienced players note that many big holders will send you a PM and sell to a big juicy buy that's lower than the current top bid. Why? Because the smart sellers know to minimise their risk they need to sell some asap to hedge against implosion and a still born Qora.

Put up multiple bids with a big one (i.e. quantity not price) at the bottom end of your price range and you have a good chance of getting a Qora whale to trade with you. The whales will pick them off via PM.

If you make a trade like this - MAKE IT PUBLIC, so it effects the market - remember, it's your average buy that counts, so if you buy @25 and then later get lucky @15 or lower your average buy in is reduced, so the marketcap you need when you sell can be a lot lower for you to make a profit, should you decide to sell.

BUYERS MARKET, at least while all trades are on the OTC exchange

[Attack.of.the.Clones]

Buyers report: How many trades have occurred in the first 48 hours or so .... 50  .... 25    ... NO!!


ABOUT 12 ... that's it. There aren't many buyers, and soon the sellers will outnumber buyers 4 to 1. Why? Coz EVERY Qora holder will want to take a profit immediately.

Only fools bid over 40! Trust me, I've made 2 successful trades closer to 30.

Remember, a big juicy trade in the middle of the price spread is often more appealing to a nervous whale than skimming smaller quantities off the top, but only RIGHT NOW, when they're all nervous, and trust me, the guys who haven't received their coins yet are nervous as hell.

'what if by the time I get my coins all the buyers have left and the price drops back to 10?'


BUYERS MARKET, BID UNDER 40

[Pentamon]

How do I find out about the next big IPO?
It looks more interesting to be a seller than a buyer...

[gorillajam]

Have you considered for a minute that by stopping the flow of buying and selling you are trying to discourage people from buying at a more balanced price like 100 sats. hardly any sellers will want to sell for less than 50 sats. This is a small window of opportunity for people to buy cheap. Once Qora is on an exchange (which could be days away now) say goodbye to anything even close to  100 sats.


You sir are either an idiot, someone who is trying to buy cheap for himself while discouraging others or a seller with a brilliant plan to block early distribution and spreading of wealth.

I'm going for idiot.

[Attack.of.the.Clones]

Have you considered for a minute that by stopping the flow of buying and selling you are trying to discourage people from buying at a more balanced price like 100 sats. hardly any sellers will want to sell for less than 50 sats. This is a small window of opportunity for people to buy cheap. Once Qora is on an exchange (which could be days away now) say goodbye to anything even close to  100 sats.


You sir are either an idiot, someone who is trying to buy cheap for himself while discouraging others or a seller with a brilliant plan to block early distribution and spreading of wealth.

I'm going for idiot.

Qora will be cloned soon enough, and if the IPO investors from Qora MK 1 kill it by not creating a viable community the developer will re-launch with a new name. All those who speculate he is BCNext would appreciate the dev's ability to move on quickly and leave others to pick up the pieces. Who from the 137 is up to that task?


Community of ~137 people is minuscule. If sellers get greedy and refuse to sell its game over very quickly. It's already happening.

HOW MANY TRADES IN THE LAST 24 HOURS? WHAT VOLUME?

how many new bids?

I wont call anyone names though, your words/ideas condemn you, and future events will show I'm right

You're not an idiot, just ignorant of how things work.

This isn't a re-run of NXT.

Qora is still born unless user numbers expand quickly.


NOTICE: There will be a Qora clone soon enough. I am interested to start planning a Qora clone with a NHZ styled 'node bot'. I'm also interested in boot-strapping a Qora clone with other well thought distribution plans.

Contact me if you are one of the 99.9% of crypto currency people who find Qora interesting but missed out on the original IPO. Qora dev obviously didn't care about distro, but I do, and I know how to do it right and have 3000 genesis block accounts on day one.

Who else thinks they can help a Qora clone get a better distribution? Who believes the 137 user version will achieve network effect before dev releases source code (coz that's his goal - peer recognition)?

[Attack.of.the.Clones]

I agree, anything above 40 satoshis is too risky. I lowered my offer to 40 satoshi
Plus, I definitely don't want my penis to fall 

Good work!

I'm starting to brain storm ideas for a cloned Qora MK 2 - it will happen, and while we wait for the code to be released we can do the hard part - getting a wide fair distribution.

keys ideas:
- learn from NEM - sockpuppet counter measures
- Don't take money - pay developers using dev stakes


More to come later

[Mrrr]

OP: the linked Qora trading thread was locked since an escrowed one was opened.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=613750.0

I made two trades on Sunday 19th: one at 1.25mil Qora/BTC and one at 1 mil Qora/BTC.

Both were fair trades IMO. I took a SICK amount of risk investing in this one.

[Attack.of.the.Clones]

OP: the linked Qora trading thread was locked since an escrowed one was opened.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=613750.0

I made two trades on Sunday 19th: one at 1.25mil Qora/BTC and one at 1 mil Qora/BTC.

Both were fair trades IMO. I took a SICK amount of risk investing in this one.

Thanks, I had deliberately left the locked original thread, but I have taken your advice and added the current OTC exchange too! The thread was probably locked to prevent people discussing the points I'm making, fair enough! But its a free market, so I can start my own thread.

I've done the same as you and invested in Qora MK 1. That's sensible risk management.

I do think recent crypto currency history does give us many clues as to how things *might* develop in the Qora ecosystem from here. It is very unlikely Qora MK 1 will progress like NXT. Here are some reasons:

- NXT IPO investors took a risk on an IDEA - a fairly distributed POS coin. They weren't out to get rich, so when BCNext closed the IPO he didn't really bother to promote they did get rich, but they didn't expect that when they invested in NXT, and so for the most part they acted in an altruistic way. They sold heaps very cheaply without any prompting. They saw it as their responsibility to grow the NXT community. They weren't greedy.

- The first wave of NXT clones were jokes, then NEM came, and now we see viable NXT clones (NHZ, NXTL, NFD victim reboot, N2Coin, NAS etc). But NXT community was established by then, so NXT has achieved partial network effect. A Qora clone can start the day the code is open sourced. We can work on the distribution NOW. That's the obligation the Qora MK 1 guys are walking away from. DISTRIBUTION.

- If Qora dev is BCNext, then he doesn't care about money, and distribution is an irritant to him, so he wants the Qora MK 1 whales to do what the NXT whales did, but it looks like the Qora IPO attracted guys with 'NXT 73 fever' - they are already emotionally attached to the 'I'm rich, yippee!' feeling. NXT whales didn't do that (or if they did they did it privately). Qora MK 1 whale behaviour will not produce a good distribution, so a Qora MK 2 clone is inevitable.

- Qora dev is NOT attached to the 137 IPO investors from Qora MK 1, he is attached to his invention ('Qora'), and he will support ANY Qora clones that are not scams. Code guys want to share and advance their ideas. Short sighted IPO investors want to never release the source code, but the dev does, and so do 99.9% of future Qora users (i.e everyone in Qora MK 1 except the original 137, and 100% or all users in all other Qora clones)

- Qora dev will most likely move on before Qora is polished and ready for mass adoption, so other developers will need to do this work. Unless they were part of the Qora MK 1 IPO, who will pay them? Dev bounties don't work for a project like this. How did NXT manage? 1 - unclaimed IPO shares of 10 Million NXT (equivalent to 100 Million Qora - 2- Jean-Luc, NXT core dev is a 50 Million NXT guy, and doesn't need to be paid 3 - NXt price crashed for months and so guys like jl777, wesley, CIYAM, etc had plenty of time to buy a big stake very cheaply. If Qora MK 1 price goes up much further you wont be able to attract new developers, so you'll have to get dev bounties. How much? Conservative estimate would be 10-15%, 1.5 Billion coins. That would give Qora the equivalent budget that NXt has used.

Yes, I like the look of Qora very much, and I have, and will, try to buy more Qora MK 1 coins. But I know a POS coin survives more than anything else on its community, and Qora MK 1 is the most vulnerable coin in crypto history. NAS has a better chance of surviving IMO than Qora MK 1 because its dirt cheap, and despite its dubious origins, people are buying it BECAUSE ITS CHEAP.

Nobody in their right mind should pay 100 satoshi for Qora MK 1. By all means put in some big low bids around 10-20 satoshi, but anymore is madness. There's no rush on the OTC exchange. Wait, be smart

EVERYBODY, should consider supporting a Qora MK 2 clone that learns from crypto history.


Qora clone brain storming:
- Most important thing is the community - people

- Second most important thing is the clonehas to guarantee future dev support, and a big personal stake beats dev bounties hands down (how many NEM devs got NXT dev stakes? do some research, dev bounties can't keep a good dev, only a big personal stake can motivate - look at Jean-Luc form NXT

- Avoid IPO for POS initial distribution - don't receive any funds - too many scams have done that - free coins, look credible, dev shares, accept donations

- Employ sockpuppet counter-mearsures and be 100% transparent - learn from NEM, NHZ and NXTL etc. Spend time developing the procedures for the widest, fairest distribution of equal shares - it is possible, and someone will eventually do it (it could be 'us')

For a POS coin the distro is vital, but most devs naturally are concentrating on the code, so they don't bother with that. The 'devs' of the recent batch of POS coins based on bitcoin code base (like coffecoin, sharcoin, energycoin etc etc) put 100% of effort on marketing and distro ideas. Qora MK  2 clone has lots of places to get good distro ideas.

NXT distro was awful with 73, but it was the first, so it got through by default.

Qora wont be the same, unless of course the price drops to ~10-20 satoshi and lots of whales dump a portion of their stake to realise their profit and fulfill their 'civic duty'

Who doesn't think a Qora clone will appear? Why not start the ground work now? If nothing else it will freak the shit of Qora MK 1 whales and cause a few to dump a bit, and IMO that's worth the effort alone if it pushes the Qora MK 1 price down to a realistic level. But I'm all for starting a New Qora, where the community focuses on achieving the best, widest, fairest distro possible built on top of a very exciting code base (Qora MK 1)


Some name choices:

NewQora
Qora the Explorer
Qora2
QoraQoraQora
PeoplesQora


If Qora was your mommy, and NEM was your daddy, you would be ..... [fill in the blank]

[MadCow]

haha, somebody was obviously going to clone Qora sooner or later. You could even issue your qora MK 2 stakes on the NXT AE before the source code was even released so stakeholders could start trading.

You could end up with the situation where qora 2 on the NXT AE had a higher market cap than qora MK 1, BEFORE qora MK 2 even launched lol

Distribution is very important.

Good luck

[gorillajam]

Have you considered for a minute that by stopping the flow of buying and selling you are trying to discourage people from buying at a more balanced price like 100 sats. hardly any sellers will want to sell for less than 50 sats. This is a small window of opportunity for people to buy cheap. Once Qora is on an exchange (which could be days away now) say goodbye to anything even close to  100 sats.


You sir are either an idiot, someone who is trying to buy cheap for himself while discouraging others or a seller with a brilliant plan to block early distribution and spreading of wealth.

I'm going for idiot.

Qora will be cloned soon enough, and if the IPO investors from Qora MK 1 kill it by not creating a viable community the developer will re-launch with a new name. All those who speculate he is BCNext would appreciate the dev's ability to move on quickly and leave others to pick up the pieces. Who from the 137 is up to that task?


Community of ~137 people is minuscule. If sellers get greedy and refuse to sell its game over very quickly. It's already happening.

HOW MANY TRADES IN THE LAST 24 HOURS? WHAT VOLUME?

how many new bids?

I wont call anyone names though, your words/ideas condemn you, and future events will show I'm right

You're not an idiot, just ignorant of how things work.

This isn't a re-run of NXT.

Qora is still born unless user numbers expand quickly.


NOTICE: There will be a Qora clone soon enough. I am interested to start planning a Qora clone with a NHZ styled 'node bot'. I'm also interested in boot-strapping a Qora clone with other well thought distribution plans.

Contact me if you are one of the 99.9% of crypto currency people who find Qora interesting but missed out on the original IPO. Qora dev obviously didn't care about distro, but I do, and I know how to do it right and have 3000 genesis block accounts on day one.

Who else thinks they can help a Qora clone get a better distribution? Who believes the 137 user version will achieve network effect before dev releases source code (coz that's his goal - peer recognition)?

For someone who thinks it can easily die you are betting a very large amount of BTC 100! On this risky still born coin.

I hope people are clever enough that they don't let this fool stop them getting in at below 100 stats and having the bargain of a lifetime. You are clearly only out for yourself.

[Momimaus]

Maybe we are not in a hurry.
At the moment Qora has almost nothing. And it will take months to build features that are attractive. NXT was decreasing a couple of months and just started now increasing again. So why not just wait until it builds a ground.
Anyway the sellers will loose their nerves when their coin will start going down, and will sell much cheaper.
And if it goes up? Who cares? Look for the next thing, they are coming in short time.
I don´t think I´ll buy some over 30 sats.

[gorillajam]

Maybe we are not in a hurry.
At the moment Qora has almost nothing. And it will take months to build features that are attractive. NXT was decreasing a couple of months and just started now increasing again. So why not just wait until it builds a ground.
Anyway the sellers will loose their nerves when their coin will start going down, and will sell much cheaper.
And if it goes up? Who cares? Look for the next thing, they are coming in short time.
I don´t think I´ll buy some over 30 sats.

I don't care what you do, I don't care or try to pump Qora BUT you will not buy under 30 EVER.

[Momimaus]

Maybe we are not in a hurry.
At the moment Qora has almost nothing. And it will take months to build features that are attractive. NXT was decreasing a couple of months and just started now increasing again. So why not just wait until it builds a ground.
Anyway the sellers will loose their nerves when their coin will start going down, and will sell much cheaper.
And if it goes up? Who cares? Look for the next thing, they are coming in short time.
I don´t think I´ll buy some over 30 sats.

I don't care what you do, I don't care or try to pump Qora BUT you will not buy under 30 EVER.

Maybe not, thats ok for me too. But with a price of 50 it will be hard to gain a descent ROI, and the risk-return-ratio is not good für me at the moment. Maybe it will be if there is a stable client, a marketing plan, planned features, etc. etc.
I am still watching Qora

[MadCow]

Maybe we are not in a hurry.
At the moment Qora has almost nothing. And it will take months to build features that are attractive. NXT was decreasing a couple of months and just started now increasing again. So why not just wait until it builds a ground.
Anyway the sellers will loose their nerves when their coin will start going down, and will sell much cheaper.
And if it goes up? Who cares? Look for the next thing, they are coming in short time.
I don´t think I´ll buy some over 30 sats.

I don't care what you do, I don't care or try to pump Qora BUT you will not buy under 30 EVER.

Maybe not, thats ok for me too. But with a price of 50 it will be hard to gain a descent ROI, and the risk-return-ratio is not good für me at the moment. Maybe it will be if there is a stable client, a marketing plan, planned features, etc. etc.
I am still watching Qora

That's the point, at 50 there is too much risk for a decent ROI for new investors. I bought  @35 and that's the very top of my risk profile. I'd say maybe 5-8 different people have bought qora so far, going by the OTC thread. That's very worrying - there's not much interest in qora at this price, and I do think sellers will get nervous soon.

[Attack.of.the.Clones]

Ok, Qora is about to go live on poloniex. We'll soon know how the market will judge Qora. The OTC exchange bodes poorly though. The supply has dried up, maybe waiting for the listing on Poloniex, but I can't believe people will pay these prices for a new untested coin.

My prediction - a 24 hour bump in the price to ~80-100 satoshi, and then we're heading south - how far is anybodies guess. It all depends on if the IPO investors throw the buyers a few bones. Without some volume at ~40-60 sats, it'll be game over, or more likely a quick re-think by the whales, and a MASSIVE drop in price down to ~20 or below.

This isn't NXT part 2!!

I'm still super confident I'll be buying at 20. If not I'll be getting free Kora and watching that one go to da moon

[pt7]

Is this the next NXT? It could (just maybe) happen.
Is it worth speculating on this?  Not at this price.   Price much higher than NXT was at this phase. And NXT had less competition in 2nd gen at that time.
Will revisit when Qora Club 137 realizes that hoarding is not beneficial

[Attack.of.the.Clones]

Is this the next NXT? It could (just maybe) happen.
Is it worth speculating on this?  Not at this price.   Price much higher than NXT was at this phase. And NXT had less competition in 2nd gen at that time.
Will revisit when Qora Club 137 realizes that hoarding is not beneficial

I agree! Qora code 'could' be the next NXT, but the Qora 137 are not acting like the NXT 73, and the Qora distribution is very bad, so I think Qora could quickly die, or else will suffer a massive crash back down to ~10-25 satoshi

Have a look at Kora, a clone of Qora that's using a free distro to 3k users: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=620518.0