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Author Topic: How Open Source Projects Survive Poisonous People  (Read 24554 times)
Luke-Jr
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February 04, 2012, 06:23:38 PM
 #161

Just thought I should note this post was written by Gavin himself...
Can't we hire respectable white hats to do a professional audit (with pledges)?

Good idea. Who wants to volunteer to do the fundraising and organize this, and let me know how I can help?
If he doesn't consider himself to be qualified for the job, it's IMO quite silly to argue over it.

FWIW, I am also not qualified for this.

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The Bitcoin software, network, and concept is called "Bitcoin" with a capitalized "B". Bitcoin currency units are called "bitcoins" with a lowercase "b" -- this is often abbreviated BTC.
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February 04, 2012, 07:58:03 PM
 #162

The web required 10 years to become adopted. I think this gives a good idea how long it'll take Bitcoin. There is plenty of time to get it right. If this stuff gets released this year or even next year, it is just fine.
I don't think the analogy quite applies as is. First of all, compared to the Internet, Bitcoin is a sub-technology that is based on technologies, both software and hardware, that have required significant investments to reach the level of development and infrastructure where they're at today. Developing Bitcoin is cheaper because a lot of what Bitcoin does is built on top of existing infrastructure. This doesn't mean that it won't take a long time to develop Bitcoin, it sure does, but technologies such as Bitcoin could explode easier because there is less of an investment barrier involved.

Second of all, there is already competition to Bitcoin and we can expect this competition to radically increase in the next 24 months. The Internet didn't have this competition. Not only are we competing against other cryptocurrencies, Bitcoin is also competing against major payment providers that are working on mobile wallets and all kinds of stuff that makes payments fast and convenient. I believe those technologies and the currency itself would still be inferior to Bitcoin but from a marketing perspective that focuses on regular consumers Bitcoin does NOT have a decade to develop stuff, it's under tremendous competitive pressure from many directions.

I give Bitcoin 6 months, 12 months at most before we will see it suffer and decline from lack of development. This is if we let it stall, of course. It doesn't mean that we should be hasty with serious upgrades, but P2SH is not being hasty. It has been in development and discussion for many months and Gavin has got the best solution anyone has been able to come up with so far. Even I will be looking at Bitcoin's competitors with much more interest if enabling P2SH fails in March. I'm quite sure a lot of other people will do the same.

We are not living in the 90's anymore, development of a sub-technology such as Bitcoin must be faster than that of the entire Web. Otherwise our competitors will eat us alive.

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February 04, 2012, 08:10:32 PM
 #163

Can't we hire respectable white hats to do a professional audit (with pledges)?

Good idea. Who wants to volunteer to do the fundraising and organize this, and let me know how I can help?



First rule of volunteer projects.  If person A comes up with idea X, then person A implements idea X.  Otherwise the project gets a lot of people with a lot of ideas and very little work done.

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February 04, 2012, 08:44:19 PM
 #164

Bitcoind itself however seems to be just one single software with no real competitors (yes, I know about bitcoinj) where many people complain a bit about this or that but noone dares/wants to implement their own version. Transactions are already now complex enough to implement, that it seems noone so far even dares to do another implementation.
I was considering re-implementing parts of it, re-using some code from the original client, but there's some scarily nasty quirks Bitcoin has involving duplicate coinbase transactions that make that a frankly terrifying idea right now.

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February 04, 2012, 08:46:19 PM
 #165

The web required 10 years to become adopted. I think this gives a good idea how long it'll take Bitcoin. There is plenty of time to get it right. If this stuff gets released this year or even next year, it is just fine.
I don't think the analogy quite applies as is. First of all, compared to the Internet, ... The Internet didn't have this competition...

I was comparing to the Web, not the Internet, for a reason. There was plenty of competition for both. Compuserve and AOL to name just 2. The Web killed them both. Not because it was technically superior. Because it enabled business in ways proprietary systems can't.

The proposals enable business, that's why they are important. But it shouldn't be rushed.


I give Bitcoin 6 months, 12 months at most before we will see it suffer and decline from lack of development. This is if we let it stall, of course. It doesn't mean that we should be hasty with serious upgrades, but P2SH is not being hasty. It has been in development and discussion for many months and Gavin has got the best solution anyone has been able to come up with so far. Even I will be looking at Bitcoin's competitors with much more interest if enabling P2SH fails in March. I'm quite sure a lot of other people will do the same.

We are not living in the 90's anymore, development of a sub-technology such as Bitcoin must be faster than that of the entire Web. Otherwise our competitors will eat us alive.

I am not suggesting to halt development. There is plenty to do. The GUI could still use a lot of improvement, for instance. The command line is still essential for making a backup of a running system, for instance. Blockchain pruning may be another issue - most stuff in the blockchain is garbage.

But this is about a standard and if we have a broken standard, then the competitors will eat us alive. With Chardonay!


I'm operating a local "in person” business that accepts Bitcoin from classically untrustworthy clients for payment but cannot continue to accept them if security isn't quickly developed and continuously advanced. I live in fear that a tech savvy client will get access to one of my network computers and wipe me out. Splitting the spending of funds to multiple devices would end my concerns but it looks as if change isn’t going to happen as fast as is necessary for Bitcoin to stay ahead.

Your wallet does not need to be on-line. Create wallets and a lot of accounts on an off-line computer and put the wallet (the private key, actually) into a safe. That should solve your problem

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February 04, 2012, 09:01:20 PM
 #166


Your wallet does not need to be on-line. Create wallets and a lot of accounts on an off-line computer and put the wallet (the private key, actually) into a safe. That should solve your problem

Too clumsy and difficult to use. Also, how do I RDP into the safe to gain access.

Multiple computers don't help. When the intruder has one, she can wireshark into the rest.

[EDIT]: There is no reason to believe that any other electronic payment would be safer if your computer has a rootkit. Only cash and Bitcoin can help there.

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February 04, 2012, 09:35:01 PM
 #167

Are you saying that you think BIP 16 could be defeated by simply capturing and analyzing a single networks packets?

No, but VNC, NetBios, under some circumstances even SSH can. Or whatever else you use to communicate commands. Or simple screen or keyboard capture.

I did not understand the BIPs as security feature. I think the first thing in mind is some kind of escrow by the Bitcoin Net and by extension, some sort of scriptable contract. Safeguarding against a partly compromised network does not seem effective to me. And I don't think Gavin or Luke had that in mind. But maybe they can clear that.

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February 04, 2012, 09:35:26 PM
 #168

Can't we hire respectable white hats to do a professional audit (with pledges)?

Good idea. Who wants to volunteer to do the fundraising and organize this, and let me know how I can help?



First rule of volunteer projects.  If person A comes up with idea X, then person A implements idea X.  Otherwise the project gets a lot of people with a lot of ideas and very little work done.

I reject this rule. A corollary from your rule is "If person A doesn't have time to implement idea X, person A should shut up and not talk about idea X".

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February 04, 2012, 10:23:01 PM
 #169

Can't we hire respectable white hats to do a professional audit (with pledges)?

Good idea. Who wants to volunteer to do the fundraising and organize this, and let me know how I can help?



First rule of volunteer projects.  If person A comes up with idea X, then person A implements idea X.  Otherwise the project gets a lot of people with a lot of ideas and very little work done.

I reject this rule. A corollary from your rule is "If person A doesn't have time to implement idea X, person A should shut up and not talk about idea X".

See the How Open Source Projects Survive Poisonous People video at 32:00.  "Put up or shut up."  I was taught this rule creating stages at a community theater.  I had what I thought was a great idea.  I brought up this great idea but I had no interest in actually working on it because it is a big project.  It is disrespectful to other people's time.

So a good rule is:

If person A comes up with idea X, then person A should try to implements idea X.  If person A doesn't have time to implement idea X, person A should shut up and not talk about idea X.

I see a lot of this on this forum.

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OMG, we need a bitcoin EBAY!!!!

OK go do it.

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February 05, 2012, 01:03:24 AM
 #170

I only know LukeDashJR from his incessant mel gibson-esque radical religious trolling on IRC and btc-e, and semi hilarious DMCA of ScamCoin.

Gavin I only know from well thought out posts and transparency in Bitcoin's development. I could care less what they look like, both have easily available pics you can find in the interspheres. It is slightly disturbing Gavin doesn't have a neckbeard and is a dev but clearly he knows what he's doing so it's all good



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February 08, 2012, 08:16:25 PM
 #171


Luvin' all of you and wishing for an amicable solution to all parties since both Luke and Gavin are definitely going to continue to be a part of this community due to their investment in time and resources, blood, sweat, tears...

Frankly, I don't think Bitcoin can spare ANY talent that is willing to put their fingers to work trying to make it better. Bitcoin definitely has competition and the statement which has stuck with me the most is "Bitcoin's greatest weakness is that it will become a forgotten project".

If Luke can continue to communicate in a manner as he has done in this thread, then I think he will show great promise as a developer-level Bitcoin contributor.


So glad to know you all.

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February 15, 2012, 08:41:03 AM
 #172

I don't think Luke-jr should be kicked out. But his actions & words definitely need to be exposed, so that people don't just blindly trust him and realize that he may not actually be working for our benefit.

Some problems I see with him:

- He filed a DMCA takedown notice on Solidcoin. While I never used Solidcoin and heard bad things about it, I think it's wrong. Bitcoin is strong because it minimally relies on government, and we shouldn't increase it's dependence on government.

- He attacked Coiled Coin (some sort of 51% attack). This shows he's not open to new ideas & competition in cryptocurrency that can help us achieve the goals we want to achieve with Bitcoin.

- He's not a freedom lover. He's pro government. He's hypocritical. He simply asserts he's right without explanation. Some examples:

(07:12:40 PM) luke-jr: this idiot is overlooking the fact that Bitcoin was designed with the "banking model" in the long run

(09:56:10 AM) onelineproof: just want to throw in that I also disagree with sending DMCA notices. We are the Bitcoin community. We must not be reliant on the government to solve our problems.
(09:57:50 AM) luke-jr: onelineproof: I am pro-government.
(09:58:26 AM) onelineproof: ok but we should be able to operate independently of government. Thats one of the main points of bitcoin.
(09:58:58 AM) luke-jr: onelineproof: SolidCoin is not Bitcoin

(03:59:22 PM) olp: bitcoin is beyond laws, we dont need laws to keep bitcoin working
(03:59:37 PM) luke-jr: olp: fail

(03:57:20 PM) bluefirecorp: If I performed a 51% attack on bitcoin, and totally crashed the econmy, I wouldn't owe anyone anything.
(03:57:29 PM) bluefirecorp: Everyone knows the risks of using bitcoins.
(03:57:53 PM) luke-jr: bluefirecorp: I beg to differ. if you actually did a 51% attack, you'd have committed fraud

From: http://luke.dashjr.org/ :
Some content on my personal web directory (this site) is for my personal use only, and may not be legally distributable to other parties. I actively try to keep these properly secured so others cannot download them, but it is possible this might not work for whatever reason. If you are able to download anything that I shouldn't be distributing, please contact me and I will gladly make sure access to it is restricted properly. By downloading anything from my personal web directory here, you assume responsibility for ensuring the copy is in compliance with the laws of your jurisdiction, my jurisdiction (Florida, USA), and my server's jurisdiction (Pennsylvania, USA). If you do not agree to these terms, you are not authorized to access this website. Accessing this website implies you have accepted this agreement as a binding contract.

From https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=57437.80 :
(Quote from: Luke-Jr on January 29, 2012, 07:34:39 PM)
No, Bitcoin is about a decentralized currency. Anything more is subjective. "Absolute freedom" is absolute evil. Bitcoin provides a useful monetary system for the Tonal number system, which is my primary reason for involvement.

- He's violent:

(09:04:50 PM) jjjrmy_: luke-jr: just leave your gun in the car
(09:04:58 PM) luke-jr: jjjrmy_: why?
(09:05:05 PM) jjjrmy_: luke-jr: there is no need to bring it into a bar!
(09:05:11 PM) luke-jr: jjjrmy_: there could be
(09:05:19 PM) jjjrmy_: luke-jr: such as?
(09:05:27 PM) luke-jr: jjjrmy_: such as if someone goes nuts and starts shooting
(09:05:42 PM) luke-jr: heck, a bar is one of the *last* places I'd want to be unarmed

Let me know if there's anything else I should add. I think transparency is key to Bitcoin's success.

UPDATES:

- He doesn't care about privacy

(~ Feb 17 2012)

(09:43:07 PM) echelon: ugh, why are all these sites that accept btc blocking tor!?
(09:43:20 PM) luke-jr: echelon: because you're not supposed to be anonymous
(09:44:04 PM) echelon: so what's the point of accepting bitcoins then?
(09:44:09 PM) echelon: it kind of defeats the purpose
(09:44:48 PM) luke-jr: echelon: the purpose is that it's inflationary and can't be reversed
(09:45:27 PM) echelon: i launder my bitcoin
(09:45:44 PM) luke-jr: echelon: laundry is illegal

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February 15, 2012, 08:59:18 AM
 #173

I don't think Luke-jr should be kicked out. But his actions & words definitely need to be exposed, so that people don't just blindly trust him and realize that he may not actually be working for our benefit.

Some problems I see with him:

- He filed a DMCA notice on Solidcoin. While I never used Solidcoin and heard bad things about it, I think it's wrong. Bitcoin is strong because it minimally relies on government, and we shouldn't increase it's dependence on government.

- He attacked Coiled Coin. This shows he's not open to new ideas in cryptocurrency that can help us achieve the goals we want to achieve with Bitcoin.

- He's not a freedom lover. He's pro government. He's hypocritical. He simply asserts he's right without explanation. Some examples:

(07:12:40 PM) luke-jr: this idiot is overlooking the fact that Bitcoin was designed with the "banking model" in the long run

(09:56:10 AM) onelineproof: just want to throw in that I also disagree with sending DMCA notices. We are the Bitcoin community. We must not be reliant on the government to solve our problems.
(09:57:50 AM) luke-jr: onelineproof: I am pro-government.
(09:58:26 AM) onelineproof: ok but we should be able to operate independently of government. Thats one of the main points of bitcoin.
(09:58:58 AM) luke-jr: onelineproof: SolidCoin is not Bitcoin

(03:59:22 PM) olp: bitcoin is beyond laws, we dont need laws to keep bitcoin working
(03:59:37 PM) luke-jr: olp: fail

(03:57:20 PM) bluefirecorp: If I performed a 51% attack on bitcoin, and totally crashed the econmy, I wouldn't owe anyone anything.
(03:57:29 PM) bluefirecorp: Everyone knows the risks of using bitcoins.
(03:57:53 PM) luke-jr: bluefirecorp: I beg to differ. if you actually did a 51% attack, you'd have committed fraud

From: http://luke.dashjr.org/ :

Some content on my personal web directory (this site) is for my personal use only, and may not be legally distributable to other parties. I actively try to keep these properly secured so others cannot download them, but it is possible this might not work for whatever reason. If you are able to download anything that I shouldn't be distributing, please contact me and I will gladly make sure access to it is restricted properly. By downloading anything from my personal web directory here, you assume responsibility for ensuring the copy is in compliance with the laws of your jurisdiction, my jurisdiction (Florida, USA), and my server's jurisdiction (Pennsylvania, USA). If you do not agree to these terms, you are not authorized to access this website. Accessing this website implies you have accepted this agreement as a binding contract.

From https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=57437.80 :

No, Bitcoin is about a decentralized currency. Anything more is subjective. "Absolute freedom" is absolute evil. Bitcoin provides a useful monetary system for the Tonal number system, which is my primary reason for involvement.

- He's violent:

(09:04:50 PM) jjjrmy_: luke-jr: just leave your gun in the car
(09:04:58 PM) luke-jr: jjjrmy_: why?
(09:05:05 PM) jjjrmy_: luke-jr: there is no need to bring it into a bar!
(09:05:11 PM) luke-jr: jjjrmy_: there could be
(09:05:19 PM) jjjrmy_: luke-jr: such as?
(09:05:27 PM) luke-jr: jjjrmy_: such as if someone goes nuts and starts shooting
(09:05:42 PM) luke-jr: heck, a bar is one of the *last* places I'd want to be unarmed

Let me know if there's anything else I should add. In my opinion, transparency is key to Bitcoin's success.

This has absolutely nothing to do with BIP 16 vs BIP 17.

This is not transparency. This is a smear campaign.

You make several assumptions here:

- that one shouldn't use the laws in place just because one doesn't like them. I agree with Luke that copyright and copyleft should be enforced by law. He had his code unlawfully misappropriated. It's completely necessary for Open Source to have licences enforced. Ask Stallman.
- he thinks a 51% attack is fraud. This is somehow bad for you.  Well, it's an opinion. Has zero relevance to the project as we want to avoid this possibility anyway.
- that having a gun is violent and that it's somehow relevant to the project. He has a concealed gun and carries it. This is legal in several states.

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February 15, 2012, 09:49:13 AM
 #174

1)
What is wrong in being "pro-government", whatever that means? We are a community and are free to think whatever we want.

Also, while we are on that subject, are you an anarchist? Do you really think that government has no function and a world would be a better place without goverments? Then I suggest you read up on some history like feudal ages or even earlier. If you would remove goverment, that shit would happen all over again.

Why do people think that bitcoin is supposed to replace governments?Huh



2)
Quote
(09:04:58 PM) luke-jr: jjjrmy_: why?
(09:05:05 PM) jjjrmy_: luke-jr: there is no need to bring it into a bar!
(09:05:11 PM) luke-jr: jjjrmy_: there could be
(09:05:19 PM) jjjrmy_: luke-jr: such as?
(09:05:27 PM) luke-jr: jjjrmy_: such as if someone goes nuts and starts shooting
(09:05:42 PM) luke-jr: heck, a bar is one of the *last* places I'd want to be unarmed

This is just silly. You seem to live in a wonderful world where everything people say in chats is 100 percent true, they are always dead-serious and things they way always portray their exact personalities.
</sarcasm>



About the DMCA note.
While you may or may not think it was "right" or "wrong", whatever that is, you seem to be thinking that he filed it because he didn't like solidcoin or because it was "a rival" to bitcoin. When in reality the note was about taking bitcoin's source code, which is governed by the MIT license, use it in an own project and violate that license. The DMCA note was fully legitimate.


Quote
"Absolute freedom" is absolute evil.

This can't be said in a more right way. People that don't understand this are little girls riding on pink poneys in a magical world of total ignorance.

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February 15, 2012, 10:07:36 AM
 #175

are you an anarchist? Do you really think that government has no function and a world would be a better place without goverments? Then I suggest you read up on some history like feudal ages or even earlier. If you would remove goverment, that shit would happen all over again.

<snip>

Quote
"Absolute freedom" is absolute evil.

This can't be said in a more right way. People that don't understand this are little girls riding on pink poneys in a magical world of total ignorance.

I suggest you read up on what anarchism means.

However, I agree that there is nothing there that tells me not to trust Luke, he looks pretty coherent.
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February 15, 2012, 11:36:24 AM
 #176

What is wrong in being "pro-government", whatever that means? We are a community and are free to think whatever we want.

I don't think there's anything wrong with wanting a government to exist. I do think there are some things that government should do. And I do think that both government and Bitcoin should exist in the same time & place. What I said is that (with all else equal) a Bitcoin system that can function independently of what government system we live in is better than a Bitcoin system that depends on specific government enforced laws to function. Isn't that obvious? For example: If Bitcoin depended on some specific copyright law to function effectively and in Somalia there is no such copyright law, then Bitcoin won't function so well in Somalia.

This is just silly. You seem to live in a wonderful world where everything people say in chats is 100 percent true, they are always dead-serious and things they way always portray their exact personalities.

If you see the full conversation, you will see that it's more likely real (real locations and bar name mentioned). But ya, it's not 100% sure of course.

This has absolutely nothing to do with BIP 16 vs BIP 17.
This is not transparency. This is a smear campaign.

Let me give you an example to explain why I think it's important to post these kinds of things.

Suppose Luke-jr is working as an agent for the US government. His mission: Cause Bitcoin to be more effectively controlled by the government. He can accomplish this by becoming a top Bitcoin developer and gaining reputation and trust from the Bitcoin community. He can then use this trust to make subtle changes to the Bitcoin protocol that favour government control. He can also use this trust to make statements on the forums and IRC rooms that brainwash people into taking up pro US government stances.

I obviously don't have enough evidence for this, but I'm sure it's likely that there some government agents in the Bitcoin community. Also, Luke-jr can simply be a person with no government ties and still somehow leveraging his reputation as a top developer to steer the Bitcoin community in the wrong direction. Who knows? I'm just sharing with you (the Bitcoin community) what I believe are red flags that should trigger more caution when trusting Luke-jr.

And yes, this doesn't have much to do with BIP 16 vs BIP 17, but so what? If you look at Gavin's first post you should see that the topic is "poisonous people in open source projects & luke-jr as such a person".

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February 15, 2012, 11:43:43 AM
 #177

This has absolutely nothing to do with BIP 16 vs BIP 17.
This is not transparency. This is a smear campaign.

Let me give you an example to explain why I think it's important to post these kinds of things.

Suppose Luke-jr is working as an agent for the US government. His mission: Cause Bitcoin to be more effectively controlled by the government. He can accomplish this by becoming a top Bitcoin developer and gaining reputation and trust from the Bitcoin community. He can then use this trust to make subtle changes to the Bitcoin protocol that favour government control. He can also use this trust to make statements on the forums and IRC rooms that brainwash people into taking up pro US government stances.

I obviously don't have enough evidence for this, but I'm sure it's likely that there some government agents in the Bitcoin community. Also, Luke-jr can simply be a person with no government ties and still somehow leveraging his reputation as a top developer to steer the Bitcoin community in the wrong direction. Who knows? I'm just sharing with you (the Bitcoin community) what I believe are red flags that should trigger more caution when trusting Luke-jr.

And yes, this doesn't have much to do with BIP 16 vs BIP 17, but so what? If you look at Gavin's first post you should see that the topic is "poisonous people in open source projects & luke-jr as such a person".

This is exactly why we shouldn't look at popularity/reputation/trust within the community but look at the code and its merits. This is why I think popularity contests succeeding over merit put the whole system in question. Very especially when they are about changes in the blockchain.

Your stance is absolutely contradictory if you look at it this way. "Government agents" would be much smarter at "social engineering" than Luke who seems not to give a fuck about his "image" - much less so than Gavin for instance.

Any government "trojan horse" would do a much better job at not being vocal about the stances Luke's vocal about.

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February 15, 2012, 01:47:29 PM
 #178

Unfortunately, it looks like BIP 16 is going to prevail simply because of personal nonsense. Gavin is the only developer who actually objects to BIP 17.

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February 15, 2012, 02:34:10 PM
 #179

Unfortunately, it looks like BIP 16 is going to prevail simply because of personal nonsense. Gavin is the only developer who actually objects to BIP 17.
Gavin is the only developer who objects to BIP 17 while you are the only developer who objects to BIP 16. The situation was a stalemate and the truth is that Gavin's opinion weighs more because he is the lead developer and has been trusted by both Satoshi and the whole community for a long time.

I don't think the personal stuff directed at you specifically means that much to be honest, it could have been anyone else in your place and Gavin still wins. It's how it's supposed to be, projects need a project leader. When there is a stalemate, project leader casts the deciding vote.

Now I think the best plan is to make sure BIP 16 is implemented as smoothly as possible. We need more than 55% of the network to be totally safe, at 55% there is still too high of a risk that there could be issues. It's basically up to Tycho now, most other pools are supporting BIP 16 as of now and he will basically decide when we have a go for enabling it.

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February 15, 2012, 03:08:47 PM
 #180

Someone should let him know that this:

Quote
From: http://luke.dashjr.org/ :
By downloading anything from my personal web directory here, you assume responsibility for ensuring the copy is in compliance with the laws of your jurisdiction, my jurisdiction (Florida, USA), and my server's jurisdiction (Pennsylvania, USA). If you do not agree to these terms, you are not authorized to access this website. Accessing this website implies you have accepted this agreement as a binding contract.

is totally useless and has never stood up in court when challenged. I'm surprised people still even put that up.

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