Map Makers Admit Mistake in Showing Ice Cap Loss in Greenland

[FirstAscent]

You recited a list of related topics... nowhere have you indicated any understanding, or lack of (for that matter), these topics. So I honestly don't know.

It is not my responsibility to prove that I have any knowledge on these subjects. But by clearly stating that I do, it would be obvious that I am inviting discussion on those topics if you would only engage, rather than harp.

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[bb113]

The main problem with concluding we know the cause of global warming is

1) No one really understands clouds, which can either reflect light back into space (cooling), or reflect it back down to earth (heating) depending on various factors.

I.e. increased heat -> increased moisture -> net effect on clouds

2) The body of evidence that warming is occurring is actually showing pretty small scale changes so far (far, far less than what occurs during the yearly cycle). Whether the theorized positive feedback loop occurs depends on what the clouds do... which no one really understands.

All the models ASSUME clouds will work as a positive feedback factor. There is some basis for this but also preliminary satellite evidence that the opposite is true. Even a decade of perfect climate data isn't enough to tell either way since there are so many long and medium scale cycles overlapping each other.

[FirstAscent]

Completely independent of any ambiguity regarding cloud layer feedback loops, there are ice albedo feedback loops, which have no ambiguity with regard to their processes.

[bb113]

Right, it is the net feedback that counts in the end.

[FirstAscent]

Right, it is the net feedback that counts in the end.

Yes, and the net temperature rise coincident with the rise of the Industrial Age appears to be happening despite the slide into a new ice age as predicted by the Milankovitch cycles. One cannot really argue that Milankovitch cycles are the cause of Global Warming, as they indicate that we are sliding into the next ice age since about 6,000 years ago.

So what's causing a temperature rise and melting glaciers?

[bb113]

I'm not quite sure what you mean by "net temperature"...
Anyway there are multiple lines of evidence the temperature has been rising the last 100 years (about 0.6 K so far). The most plausible explanation for this rise is anthropomorphic CO2. While there is no historical evidence for increased atmospheric CO2 forcing a temperature rise, over the last 100 years there has been a strong correlation between CO2 and global temperature. In addition, there are multiple lines of supporting evidence that CO2 is the cause.

[bb113]

So yea, unless someone is willing to propose a conspiracy to fake the temperature rise over the last century (which I have seen no strong evidence for). I consider this undisputed.

[bb113]

Completely independent of any ambiguity regarding cloud layer feedback loops, there are ice albedo feedback loops, which have no ambiguity with regard to their processes.

Actually, on rereading this I take issue with "completely independent" and "no ambiguity". You are probably overstating the certainty of ice albedo models under various conditions. I haven't looked for info otherwise, but you are making an extraordinarily un-nuanced claim here.

[Snapman]

For those of you who believe the crap al gore spews, then you need to have your fucking heads examined. You guys do know that one of his most recent purchases of realestate  was a fucking home on the shoreside. U'd think if he really believed in that shit he was spreading, he would have build something up in the hills.

As for the OP, speak that truth brotha

[FlipPro]

For those of you who believe the crap al gore spews, then you need to have your fucking heads examined. You guys do know that one of his most recent purchases of realestate  was a fucking home on the shoreside. U'd think if he really believed in that shit he was spreading, he would have build something up in the hills.

As for the OP, speak that truth brotha

Real intelligent.

[FirstAscent]

U'd think if he really believed in that shit he was spreading, he would have build something up in the hills.

Why? Please explain. I'm assuming that you're bright enough to be thinking that my question isn't as dumb as it sounds and that perhaps you're being set up.

[Matthew N. Wright]

UNSUBSCRIBE! UNSUBSCRIBE! UNSUBSCRIBE!

[P4man]

For those of you who believe the crap al gore spews, then you need to have your fucking heads examined. Y

I hear Al Gore also claims the earth is round, rather than flat. Im not entirely sure if he discovered that himself, or if he discovered AGW himself, but if he says so, it has to be untrue, right? Its clearly Al Gore we are discussing and not what scientists say.

[Bind]

For those of you who believe the crap al gore spews, then you need to have your fucking heads examined. Y

I hear Al Gore also claims the earth is round, rather than flat. Im not entirely sure if he discovered that himself, or if he discovered AGW himself, but if he says so, it has to be untrue, right? Its clearly Al Gore we are discussing and not what scientists say.

There is always a bit of truth to add credibility. There were times when the earth had warmed and had fewer ice caps, and we are fine.

There were mini ice ages, and we are fine.

In 1972 the international people and groups behind all the global scares claimed global cooling and if we didnt act we would be extinct. No one believed them and we are fine. The sames families, groups, and people behind the global warming scare today. We will be fine.

Sames goes for every claim of "end of the world" and "extinction" thats based on bastardized "science". Science which any scientists detracting from the "official consensus" is deleted, marginalized, fired, or murdered in the name of the agenda. That agenda is a few controlling everyone else and the worlds resources, and stealing your wealth, freedom, and rights, so that the global community is lead by a few. After all, in these times of peril and threat of extinction, we need to have world leadership and no borders.

The bottom line is if it ever happens, it wont be mans fault and there will be nothing we can do about it except dig a hole and stock foodstuffs, which might let us live a couple minutes longer in the grand scheme.

What I dont like is the stealing of our rights, freedoms, sovereignty, and wealth in the process in the name of "saving the world" that decreases the quality of life and severely limits peoples ability to live well and survive NOW.

[Hawker]

bind - if its proven that global warming is real, that its caused by man and that regulation by the state can fix it, will you accept that regulation is legitimate?

[P4man]

In 1972 the international people and groups behind all the global scares claimed global cooling and if we didnt act we would be extinct. No one believed them and we are fine.

Not this BS again, please. Go read what was actually said in authoritative scientific publications, rather than misrepresentations in a popular dentist "science" magazine, and you will find nothing like a scare, nothing about imminent threats or extinctions, but tentative projections about a global long term cooling over 10s of 1000s of years.  From wikipedia:

The National Science Board's Patterns and Perspectives in Environmental Science report of 1972 discussed the cyclical behavior of climate, and the understanding at the time that the planet was entering a phase of cooling after a warm period. "Judging from the record of the past interglacial ages, the present time of high temperatures should be drawing to an end, to be followed by a long period of considerably colder temperatures leading into the next glacial age some 20,000 years from now."[19] But it also continued; "However, it is possible, or even likely, that human interference has already altered the environment so much that the climatic pattern of the near future will follow a different path."[19]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_cooling

Guess what. They got it exactly right. Go read current IPCC reports, if it werent for human action, all evidence points the world would indeed be cooling slightly now, just like they said in 1972. But human action has reversed this, just like they predicted back in 1972. Shocking huh?

Sames goes for every claim of "end of the world" and "extinction" thats based on bastardized "science". Science which any scientists detracting from the "official consensus" is deleted, marginalized, fired, or murdered in the name of the agenda.

You clearly havent got a basic understanding of how science works, and the only one blinded (pun intended) by political believes is you. You are no better than Catholics refuting scientific evidence of the earth being round. Welcome to the flat earth society.

What I dont like is the stealing of our rights, freedoms, and wealth in the process in the same of "saving the world" that decreases the quality of life and severely limits peoples ability to live well and survive NOW.

In your political views, do the rights, freedoms, health and wealth of your children and grandchildren factor in? Or is it okay to laden them with debt, a poisoned planet and depleted resources?

[Bind]

In 1972 the international people and groups behind all the global scares claimed global cooling and if we didnt act we would be extinct. No one believed them and we are fine.

Not this BS again, please. Go read what was actually said in authoritative scientific publications, rather than misrepresentations in a popular dentist "science" magazine, and you will find nothing like a scare, nothing about imminent threats or extinctions, but tentative projections about a global long term cooling over 10s of 1000s of years.  From wikipedia:

The National Science Board's Patterns and Perspectives in Environmental Science report of 1972 discussed the cyclical behavior of climate, and the understanding at the time that the planet was entering a phase of cooling after a warm period. "Judging from the record of the past interglacial ages, the present time of high temperatures should be drawing to an end, to be followed by a long period of considerably colder temperatures leading into the next glacial age some 20,000 years from now."[19] But it also continued; "However, it is possible, or even likely, that human interference has already altered the environment so much that the climatic pattern of the near future will follow a different path."[19]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_cooling

Guess what. They got it exactly right. Go read current IPCC reports, if it werent for human action, all evidence points the world would indeed be cooling now, just like they said in 1972. But human action has reversed this, just like they predicted back in 1972. Shocking huh?

Sames goes for every claim of "end of the world" and "extinction" thats based on bastardized "science". Science which any scientists detracting from the "official consensus" is deleted, marginalized, fired, or murdered in the name of the agenda.

You clearly havent got a basic understanding of how science works, and the only one blinded (pun intended) by political believes is you. You are no better than Catholics refuting scientific evidence of the earth being round. Welcome to the flat earth society.

What I dont like is the stealing of our rights, freedoms, and wealth in the process in the same of "saving the world" that decreases the quality of life and severely limits peoples ability to live well and survive NOW.

In your political views, do the rights, freedoms, health and wealth of your children and grandchildren factor in? Or is it okay to laden them with debt, a poisoned planet and depleted resources?

So, after billions of years of a growing and changing earth, you are telling me that because of humans, the earth is teetering on a razors edge between global cooling and global warming that can only remain sustained and habitable by the intentional actions of humans to combat the heating and cooling with world-wide regulation and control efforts, with extinction of all life as the outcome if we dont give up sovereignty, freedom, liberty, our rights, and wealth to the ruling class, whos only objective is to "save us", while having all the power and control over us, our land, and our resources ??

You really honestly and truly believe that ?

All I can do is shake my head in disbelief and it is taking everything within me to refrain from posting abusive and defamatory epithets in response to your ludicrous response.

They did a number on you.

[Hawker]

bind - if its proven that global warming is real, that its caused by man and that regulation by the state can fix it, will you accept that regulation is legitimate?

[P4man]

So, after billions of years of a growing and changing earth, you are telling me that because of humans, the earth is teetering on a razors edge between global cooling and global warming that can only remain sustained and habitable by the intentional actions of humans to combat the heating and cooling with world-wide regulation and control efforts, with extinction of all life as the outcome if we dont give up sovereignty, freedom, liberty, our rights, and wealth to the ruling class, whos only objective is to "save us", while having all the power and control over us, our land, and our resources ??

Where did you read any of that?
BTW, who made you believe the earth is billions of years old?

[Bind]

bind - if its proven that global warming is real, that its caused by man and that regulation by the state can fix it, will you accept that regulation is legitimate?

Its a hypothetical. I have no idea for certain how I will react if presented with undeniable evidence that our world will end if we dont do something. Most likely, I would do what I thought was the most responsible and best without international entities bent on world domination, control, and power having a gun at my back and stealing my freedom, sovereignty, rights, and wealth, stating, "these measures are the only possible solution". There is no undeniable evidence though. In fact, its going the other way with more and more professionals and scientists advertising the fraud of the IPCC and other entities, plus their attempts to silence and marginalize those other scientists and professionals with an opposing "consensus" counter to that of the bought and paid for through bribery, deceipt, manipulation, peer pressure, indoctrination and "education". Whether they are dupes or adepts is not relevent to me.

It goes against everything within me. I do not believe threats and fear should replace freedom and our rights at the point of a gun, which is what is happening using the fear manipulation, propaganda, and attempts at justification.

If you dont let me have sex with your wife and daughter, the world will end. I have a couple friends who agree, thus our collective scientific consensus. Just like the rulers and priests of old stating the world and humanity will end if we dont bow to their God or them AS Gods, and even wrote their instruction books for it. Its was all so very scientific and they used their knowledge that the little people had no idea existed to prove it. You know, like the basics of science we take for granted today. Eclipses, weather forcasting, use of dangerous resources and elements that caused sickness and illness, disease, and much other knowledge and understanding of space and the world around us.

"... believe in me or do what I say, or I will darken the skies in 3 days, make it rain, cause a draught, release plague upon you, and your world will end... etc..."

Where did you read any of that?

by your posts.

BTW, who made you believe the earth is billions of years old?

scientists who are not infallible. They could be wrong. But then my belief that the earth is billions of years old will do nothing to affect my sovereignty, freedom, rights, or wealth, and I am certainly not forcing you to act on it at the point of a weapon or threat of being caged.

That said, the moon could indeed be made of cheese and fall to the earth at any time. I have no idea, so I best buy that cheese cutter just in case. Its not to increase the political power and wealth of the elite cheese cutter manufacturers spouting fear, manupulation, threats, innuendo, supposition, and conjecture, is it..

semantics.