You work your butt off, and a rich dude does nothing and gets rich - how?

[SeaofBTC]

Imagine this:

person A has no money and is working 50% of his time to get paycheck, rest of his time he uses to sleep and be with family. 100% time used

person B has money, and can hire other people to do job instead of him , and he gets his own cut, therefore, he earns money without wasting time to do so, allowing him to spread his business more and more, earning more, and with no time wasted on actually doing anything.

there's also a word for this ; modern slavery.

That's a phrase, it's a play to emotions, and it's a bad one. You simply cannot compare the current state of affairs to slavery, as it doesn't satisfy the conditions of slavery at all. People really need to stop using slavery as a comparison to people who work jobs. You're severely diminishing the term "slavery" and exaggerating the 9-5 sludge.

People are being paid to do the work, they are not being forced to do the work, they can leave their job at any point, and usually they are actually very desperately wanting to have the work to do.

The term for person B is entrepreneur and person A is worker.

We absolutely need both. Either you have entrepreneurs who create jobs, or you have the government create the jobs.

We've seen both scenarios, we know the outcomes.

In the end, I know very few rich people who do not work their butts off. Sure there are some trust fund kids... but please. People over exaggerate the "lifestyles" of the rich. Most rich aren't Kim Kardashian, and Donald Trump *does* work. He's a bad dude, got rich off screwing others, but he does work his butt off, so your premise is still wrong.

Most importantly as well, if you feel your country is slavery because of capitalism, get the hell out. Go to Cuba, China, North Korea, Venezuela, or whatever country uses the type of system you want. Again it's not slavery. Pick up your lazy ass and go where you want to be.

[1714851547]

1714851547

[megashira1]

Imagine this:

person A has no money and is working 50% of his time to get paycheck, rest of his time he uses to sleep and be with family. 100% time used

person B has money, and can hire other people to do job instead of him , and he gets his own cut, therefore, he earns money without wasting time to do so, allowing him to spread his business more and more, earning more, and with no time wasted on actually doing anything.

there's also a word for this ; modern slavery.

People are being paid to do the work, they are not being forced to do the work, they can leave their job at any point, and usually they are actually very desperately wanting to have the work to do.

This is debatable. People ARE forced to work to earn wages which are a requisite to survive in a capitalist system.

[SeaofBTC]

Imagine this:

person A has no money and is working 50% of his time to get paycheck, rest of his time he uses to sleep and be with family. 100% time used

person B has money, and can hire other people to do job instead of him , and he gets his own cut, therefore, he earns money without wasting time to do so, allowing him to spread his business more and more, earning more, and with no time wasted on actually doing anything.

there's also a word for this ; modern slavery.

People are being paid to do the work, they are not being forced to do the work, they can leave their job at any point, and usually they are actually very desperately wanting to have the work to do.

This is debatable. People ARE forced to work to earn wages which are a requisite to survive in a capitalist system.

No, it's not. You may leave at any time. Go join a tribe. It's not slavery, and it's gross to see that term being thrown around. Next people will be comparing themselves to Jews and gays in the Holocaust.

Yeah, if you want to survive, you'll put in work in some form or fashion.

You do NOT need to work for any company to survive even in the USA. You can do subsistence farming and live off the land.

Do you want a TV with 400 channels, internet, two cars, a computer, and to eat out a few times a week? Yeah, you're going to need to participate in capitalism.

It's all your choice. It's not slavery.

[realdope]

Imagine this:

person A has no money and is working 50% of his time to get paycheck, rest of his time he uses to sleep and be with family. 100% time used

person B has money, and can hire other people to do job instead of him , and he gets his own cut, therefore, he earns money without wasting time to do so, allowing him to spread his business more and more, earning more, and with no time wasted on actually doing anything.

there's also a word for this ; modern slavery.

That's a phrase, it's a play to emotions, and it's a bad one. You simply cannot compare the current state of affairs to slavery, as it doesn't satisfy the conditions of slavery at all. People really need to stop using slavery as a comparison to people who work jobs. You're severely diminishing the term "slavery" and exaggerating the 9-5 sludge.

People are being paid to do the work, they are not being forced to do the work, they can leave their job at any point, and usually they are actually very desperately wanting to have the work to do.

The term for person B is entrepreneur and person A is worker.

We absolutely need both. Either you have entrepreneurs who create jobs, or you have the government create the jobs.

We've seen both scenarios, we know the outcomes.

In the end, I know very few rich people who do not work their butts off. Sure there are some trust fund kids... but please. People over exaggerate the "lifestyles" of the rich. Most rich aren't Kim Kardashian, and Donald Trump *does* work. He's a bad dude, got rich off screwing others, but he does work his butt off, so your premise is still wrong.

Most importantly as well, if you feel your country is slavery because of capitalism, get the hell out. Go to Cuba, China, North Korea, Venezuela, or whatever country uses the type of system you want. Again it's not slavery. Pick up your lazy ass and go where you want to be.

People aren't "free to leave the job at anytime". If you are working a shitty job, it means you aren't able to find any better, and if you stop working, you are fucked as you can't pay the bills and basic needs. It's subtle slavery, while Mr King has a perpetual luxurious holiday. It's a joke.

[SeaofBTC]

People aren't "free to leave the job at anytime". If you are working a shitty job, it means you aren't able to find any better, and if you stop working, you are fucked as you can't pay the bills and basic needs. It's subtle slavery, while Mr King has a perpetual luxurious holiday. It's a joke.

So I suppose you just ignored 95% of what I said and continued using the ignorant term.

You do not have to take part in the American Way. Capitalism is not everywhere, there are other societies for you to choose from.  You can leave. Go join a different society, we'll show you the door.

[megashira1]

People aren't "free to leave the job at anytime". If you are working a shitty job, it means you aren't able to find any better, and if you stop working, you are fucked as you can't pay the bills and basic needs. It's subtle slavery, while Mr King has a perpetual luxurious holiday. It's a joke.

So I suppose you just ignored 95% of what I said and continued using the ignorant term.

You do not have to take part in the American Way. Capitalism is not everywhere, there are other societies for you to choose from.  You can leave. Go join a different society, we'll show you the door.

Capitalism has a monopoly over the world economic systems. You must partake or you will suffer even more greatly.

[SeaofBTC]

People aren't "free to leave the job at anytime". If you are working a shitty job, it means you aren't able to find any better, and if you stop working, you are fucked as you can't pay the bills and basic needs. It's subtle slavery, while Mr King has a perpetual luxurious holiday. It's a joke.

So I suppose you just ignored 95% of what I said and continued using the ignorant term.

You do not have to take part in the American Way. Capitalism is not everywhere, there are other societies for you to choose from.  You can leave. Go join a different society, we'll show you the door.

Capitalism has a monopoly over the world economic systems. You must partake or you will suffer even more greatly.

Please list all of the places you've actually lived. Not what you've read online or seen on the television. Actually lived. If that list is exceedingly short, then go ahead and reference the places that you have personally visited.

Since you know capitalism is this plague infecting everywhere, I imagine the list must be massive and very interesting.

[AtheistAKASaneBrain]

People aren't "free to leave the job at anytime". If you are working a shitty job, it means you aren't able to find any better, and if you stop working, you are fucked as you can't pay the bills and basic needs. It's subtle slavery, while Mr King has a perpetual luxurious holiday. It's a joke.

So I suppose you just ignored 95% of what I said and continued using the ignorant term.

You do not have to take part in the American Way. Capitalism is not everywhere, there are other societies for you to choose from.  You can leave. Go join a different society, we'll show you the door.

He has pointed an objective fact: You cannot leave a job that will leave you without your fundamental needs covered, because your biological preservation mechanism is telling you to not stop working because if you do, you'll not have food, water and shelter, and you don't want this. You are not free to like this situation, any sane mind doesn't like this. Therefore, under no alternatives, you aren't free to leave your job. This is a fact, and you seem upset at this fact.

[kokojie]

It's not important that you "work your butt off", what's important is how much value have you created with your work. If you haven't created value, then you can "work your butt off" all you want, and you'd still be poor. Only 30% billionaires inherited their wealth, the rest had to also earn it, by creating large amount of value.

[SeaofBTC]

People aren't "free to leave the job at anytime". If you are working a shitty job, it means you aren't able to find any better, and if you stop working, you are fucked as you can't pay the bills and basic needs. It's subtle slavery, while Mr King has a perpetual luxurious holiday. It's a joke.

So I suppose you just ignored 95% of what I said and continued using the ignorant term.

You do not have to take part in the American Way. Capitalism is not everywhere, there are other societies for you to choose from.  You can leave. Go join a different society, we'll show you the door.

He has pointed an objective fact: You cannot leave a job that will leave you without your fundamental needs covered, because your biological preservation mechanism is telling you to not stop working because if you do, you'll not have food, water and shelter, and you don't want this. You are not free to like this situation, any sane mind doesn't like this. Therefore, under no alternatives, you aren't free to leave your job. This is a fact, and you seem upset at this fact.

You can leave your job. I hated working for others, so I left. Started my own job, years later, still at it.

I am not upset at an opinion. It's not a fact. People quit their jobs, leaving for a better place often. Those who don't, deserve to be unhappy. You can go to another country, go join a tribe, go be a part of an
Amish society,  whatever. The "basic needs" that people consider are really just luxuries. If you want the capitalist, materialist, luxuries, you've got to play the game. If you don't want to play the game, you do not have to. It's simply not a fact that you can't leave any time you want.

Bottom line: not slavery. If you're not happy, get out.

[polynesia]

People aren't "free to leave the job at anytime". If you are working a shitty job, it means you aren't able to find any better, and if you stop working, you are fucked as you can't pay the bills and basic needs. It's subtle slavery, while Mr King has a perpetual luxurious holiday. It's a joke.

So I suppose you just ignored 95% of what I said and continued using the ignorant term.

You do not have to take part in the American Way. Capitalism is not everywhere, there are other societies for you to choose from.  You can leave. Go join a different society, we'll show you the door.

He has pointed an objective fact: You cannot leave a job that will leave you without your fundamental needs covered, because your biological preservation mechanism is telling you to not stop working because if you do, you'll not have food, water and shelter, and you don't want this. You are not free to like this situation, any sane mind doesn't like this. Therefore, under no alternatives, you aren't free to leave your job. This is a fact, and you seem upset at this fact.

The 'fundamental' needs are different for each person.
An educated person may not consider just food and water as fundamental. His fundamental needs would include a minimum standard of living.

[professionalboatmisser]

People aren't "free to leave the job at anytime". If you are working a shitty job, it means you aren't able to find any better, and if you stop working, you are fucked as you can't pay the bills and basic needs. It's subtle slavery, while Mr King has a perpetual luxurious holiday. It's a joke.

So I suppose you just ignored 95% of what I said and continued using the ignorant term.

You do not have to take part in the American Way. Capitalism is not everywhere, there are other societies for you to choose from.  You can leave. Go join a different society, we'll show you the door.

He has pointed an objective fact: You cannot leave a job that will leave you without your fundamental needs covered, because your biological preservation mechanism is telling you to not stop working because if you do, you'll not have food, water and shelter, and you don't want this. You are not free to like this situation, any sane mind doesn't like this. Therefore, under no alternatives, you aren't free to leave your job. This is a fact, and you seem upset at this fact.

The 'fundamental' needs are different for each person.
An educated person may not consider just food and water as fundamental. His fundamental needs would include a minimum standard of living.

Most of us in western society understand as fundamental what is perfect explained in Maslow's piramid. You need MONEY for these. If your only income is your shitty job, you are shit out of luck. Unless you have SAVINGS, you can't just simply quit and "start your own business", that's unrealistic. You are a slave of your own work, if you don't agree, you've never been in that position or you were the small % that go nuts, quit their job, take a loan, and get a successfull business going (the small %, statistically). Poster SeaofBTC is delusional.

[teukon]

A slave is a person which is simultaneously property.  To all those that believe having a "shitty job" is slavery, may I ask you to identify the corresponding master/owner?

[manselr]

A slave is a person which is simultaneously property.  To all those that believe having a "shitty job" is slavery, may I ask you to identify the corresponding master/owner?

Its usually someone running a business, the usual suspect. If you are a wageslave you are fucked... not much margin of action. If you are not part of the initial distribution of the pie and your family didnt got a nice slice of the pie, then you'll need something special. Most people aren't and its difficult to break the wageslave loophole.

[SeaofBTC]

Most of us in western society understand as fundamental what is perfect explained in Maslow's piramid. You need MONEY for these. If your only income is your shitty job, you are shit out of luck. Unless you have SAVINGS, you can't just simply quit and "start your own business", that's unrealistic. You are a slave of your own work, if you don't agree, you've never been in that position or you were the small % that go nuts, quit their job, take a loan, and get a successfull business going (the small %, statistically). Poster SeaofBTC is delusional.

Alright, sure, if you cannot spell successful it'll be hard on you. I'm not delusional, you're just a coward.

Plenty of careers to choose from, many of which are not laborious or 9-5 sludge. Check out working for a startup, working for a beach rental company, working for a non-profit... lots of non-conventional employment.

If you still aren't happy, start your own business. You wont starve to death in the USA or most first-world countires. The only reason people beg on the side of the road is for money to buy drugs or alcohol, or they are a part of a crime ring being forced to do it, not really for food... or they are just mentally disabled, or do not know they can just go to a shelter. If you need food, you go to a church, shelter, or soup kitchen.

If you aren't happy with the capitalist American way, you have many choices. If you want a more conservative culture, you have many options, a great place for a conservative right now is Australia.

If you are looking for more of a liberal place, check out northern Europe.

If you are looking for a socialist welfare state, check out China or Cuba.

If you want lack of materialism, join an Amish society, or check out some of the Mexican Tribes, or rain forest tribes.

If you want solitude and complete independence, look into subsistence farming, and live in the mountains off the land.

If you want anarchy, check out this list of anarchist communities: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_anarchist_communities

If you want lack of materialism, and are annoyed at the amish, become a monk. There are many sects, some are not even religious. The main idea here is to give up all material possessions.

If you just are looking to feel bad for yourself, to complain just to complain, and you're too lazy to just change your life, then keep on posting.

Most people aren't and its difficult to break the wageslave loophole.

Wageslave loophole? How does one "break" a loophole? C'mon people, you're just throwing out words that sound good now.

[megashira1]

Most of us in western society understand as fundamental what is perfect explained in Maslow's piramid. You need MONEY for these. If your only income is your shitty job, you are shit out of luck. Unless you have SAVINGS, you can't just simply quit and "start your own business", that's unrealistic. You are a slave of your own work, if you don't agree, you've never been in that position or you were the small % that go nuts, quit their job, take a loan, and get a successfull business going (the small %, statistically). Poster SeaofBTC is delusional.

Alright, sure, if you cannot spell successful it'll be hard on you. I'm not delusional, you're just a coward.

Plenty of careers to choose from, many of which are not laborious or 9-5 sludge. Check out working for a startup, working for a beach rental company, working for a non-profit... lots of non-conventional employment.

If you still aren't happy, start your own business. You wont starve to death in the USA or most first-world countires. The only reason people beg on the side of the road is for money to buy drugs or alcohol, or they are a part of a crime ring being forced to do it, not really for food... or they are just mentally disabled, or do not know they can just go to a shelter. If you need food, you go to a church, shelter, or soup kitchen.

If you aren't happy with the capitalist American way, you have many choices. If you want a more conservative culture, you have many options, a great place for a conservative right now is Australia.

If you are looking for more of a liberal place, check out northern Europe.

If you are looking for a socialist welfare state, check out China or Cuba.

If you want lack of materialism, join an Amish society, or check out some of the Mexican Tribes, or rain forest tribes.

If you want solitude and complete independence, look into subsistence farming, and live in the mountains off the land.

If you want anarchy, check out this list of anarchist communities: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_anarchist_communities

If you want lack of materialism, and are annoyed at the amish, become a monk. There are many sects, some are not even religious. The main idea here is to give up all material possessions.

If you just are looking to feel bad for yourself, to complain just to complain, and you're too lazy to just change your life, then keep on posting.

Most people aren't and its difficult to break the wageslave loophole.

Wageslave loophole? How does one "break" a loophole? C'mon people, you're just throwing out words that sound good now.

Unless you are part of the socio-economic elite I cant understand why you are in such support of an exploitative system that at its heart is against you and your classes interest. Capitalism siphons capital and resources into the hands of the few at the expense of the many. There is no debating this. It is a fact of capitalism that wealth becomes ever more concentrated over time. The only reason you are such an adamant supporter of this system is because you believe in the possibility of upward mobility. This is what the elites want you to believe, that everyone and his brother can obtain a better standard of life if only he works HARD ENOUGH; The American Dream baby. However, like the poster above mentioned - you don't make millions working hard, you make millions for others while you work hard for them. The surplus value of your labor power is what is called profit, and profit is made through exploitation, and its not the elite who are getting exploited its YOU my friend. Yes, capitalism seems alright for the middle class as they make what now seems to be decent wages and there standard of living is pretty good and there's still that possibility of moving up the social ladder. However, if you look at the statistics the middle class is shrinking more and more and people are experiencing downward mobility. The possibility of moving up the socio-economic ladder is slim to none for the vast majority. And no its not because people are lazy, or because they don't work hard enough. Its because those at the top of the system want to protect their wealth, status, and power at the expense of yours.

How many are on food stamps now in the United States? What is it 50million now? Gee, if only they all worked harder. Or better yet why don't they all just jump over the ocean to Australia; oh wait that costs money too.

[teukon]

A slave is a person which is simultaneously property.  To all those that believe having a "shitty job" is slavery, may I ask you to identify the corresponding master/owner?

Its usually someone running a business, the usual suspect. If you are a wageslave you are fucked... not much margin of action. If you are not part of the initial distribution of the pie and your family didnt got a nice slice of the pie, then you'll need something special. Most people aren't and its difficult to break the wageslave loophole.

Hmm...  What happens if a "wageslave" is fired?  Are they then free?

[SeaofBTC]

Unless you are part of the socio-economic elite I cant understand why you are in such support of an exploitative system that at its heart is against you and your classes interest.

I am very much middle, if not lower-middle. I like where I am, I love my country, and I love that I had the freedom to be on my own. I love that I had choices to start a few companies in college while working a "wage slave" job and going to school, which gave me the freedom I have today.

What system do you support? Does it exist anywhere in the world?

[megashira1]

Unless you are part of the socio-economic elite I cant understand why you are in such support of an exploitative system that at its heart is against you and your classes interest.

I am very much middle, if not lower-middle. I like where I am, I love my country, and I love that I had the freedom to be on my own. I love that I had choices to start a few companies in college while working a "wage slave" job and going to school, which gave me the freedom I have today.

What system do you support? Does it exist anywhere in the world?

I would advocate a communist system. And no not the evil communism that has been propagated by the powers that be. True communism; of which has never been fully realized as an economic system.

According to Marx and his theory of historical materialism, communism is the last and final stage in an evolutionary process towards a free stateless, classless, and propertylessness society. 

Primitive Communism > Slave society > Feudalism > Capitalism > Socialism > Communism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marx's_theory_of_history - give it a read

In capitalism, the profit motive rules and people, freed from serfdom, work for the capitalists for wages. The capitalist class are free to spread their laissez faire practices around the world. In the capitalist-controlled parliament, laws are made to protect wealth.

But according to Marx, capitalism, like slave society and feudalism, also has critical failings — inner contradictions which will lead to its downfall. The working class, to which the capitalist class gave birth in order to produce commodities and profits, is the "grave digger" of capitalism. The worker is not paid the full value of what he or she produces. The rest is surplus value — the capitalist's profit, which Marx calls the "unpaid labour of the working class." The capitalists are forced by competition to attempt to drive down the wages of the working class to increase their profits, and this creates conflict between the classes, and gives rise to the development of class consciousness in the working class. The working class, through trade union and other struggles, becomes conscious of itself as an exploited class.

In the view of classical Marxism, the struggles of the working class against the attacks of the capitalist class lead the working class to establish its own collective control over production — the basis of socialist society. Marx believed that capitalism always leads to monopolies and leads the people to poverty; yet the fewer the restrictions on the free market, (e.g. from the state and trade unions) the sooner it finds itself in crisis.

What do you think? Pretty crazy how relevant and accurate his writings are still to this day, considering they were written well over 100 years ago.

Coincidentally I believe bitcoin technology will help in this evolutionary process towards a more egalitarian society

[practicaldreamer]

Pretty crazy how relevant and accurate his writings are still to this day, considering they were written well over 100 years ago.

Yes - agreed. Startlingly relevant and accurate - but we aren't supposed to mention it. He's been thoroughly discredited (apparently).

Coincidentally I believe bitcoin technology will help in this evolutionary process towards a more egalitarian society

Here's hopin'