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Author Topic: Buying a house with bitcoin  (Read 6033 times)
TheTruth4
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May 30, 2014, 05:53:16 PM
 #21

"Buying a house with bitcoiN"

Haha, yeah, that's right letter - not bitcoins, but bitcoin. If you know what I mean
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May 31, 2014, 04:20:56 AM
 #22

To buy real estate, I think you have to register the property (it's in your own interest, at the Land Registry for England and Wales) and that act implies payment of taxes related to the transfer of real property (stamp duty of 4%?), no matter the mean of payment you used.
But do your home work.

I read, From midnight on 24 March, Budget Day 2010, the threshold at which stamp duty becomes payable on homes was lifted from £125,000 to £250,000 - for first-time buyers only.   And im a first time buyer.

+ rinse all bitcoin through satoshi dice could = tax free property purchase in UK in theory?

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You don't want to live on a boat. Water leaves no legacy. You live by water, you die by water. She provides, and then she takes you.

Buy an island for like 50k-100k on the next bubble, pay some locals good money (still cheap money) to build you a nice open floor plan, and enjoy your newly built house on an island named Satoshi Island

I see some people are living for cheap on boats, no council tax and free mooring is possible also, thats 700pcm saved for me.

You can buy an island for 50-100k ?  what am i missing where are these babies at?
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May 31, 2014, 04:26:24 AM
 #23

I tried selling my last house with BTC in US before listing. Ended up getting a USD offer at ask, but never had a BTC bite. Fwiw. I think we're starting to make headway into car purchases... houses are probably a good way off. Not as far away as Branson's space travel, though, so if you try, I'd guess you at least have a better chance than him. Cheesy

"Buying a house with bitcoiN"

Haha, yeah, that's right letter - not bitcoins, but bitcoin. If you know what I mean
"bitcoin" can be used to mean either singular and plural, like sheep.

Don't mix your coins someone said isn't legal
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May 31, 2014, 08:17:27 AM
 #24

I tried selling my last house with BTC in US before listing. Ended up getting a USD offer at ask, but never had a BTC bite. Fwiw. I think we're starting to make headway into car purchases... houses are probably a good way off. Not as far away as Branson's space travel, though, so if you try, I'd guess you at least have a better chance than him. Cheesy

"Buying a house with bitcoiN"

Haha, yeah, that's right letter - not bitcoins, but bitcoin. If you know what I mean
"bitcoin" can be used to mean either singular and plural, like sheep.

Well a few houses in Canada were sold for Bitcoin and I have seen a few threads here and there about it but it certainly is uncommon to see it now with sites like Bitpremier probably being the best places to look for houses.
However you might have a point about car purchases being done in Bitcoin it is getting to the stage where it is becoming popular enough that some people may be willing to trade their car for some.
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May 31, 2014, 02:49:05 PM
 #25

In Europe, is much more hard to find houses for sale in bitcoins. Maybe next year.

But we already see a few cars for sale.

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May 31, 2014, 05:17:33 PM
 #26

I have got a luxury seafront flat for sale in Cyprus and 1 in Montenegro in Btc if you are interested
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May 31, 2014, 11:30:29 PM
 #27


Something i thought of is if the BTC was "won via gambling" and then you buy a house well thats non taxable in UK no?

BTC won through gambling is tax free in the UK. From what I have been told the revenue look at it like this. Bob paid £500 for 100BTC. He gambled and surprisingly increased his holdings to 110BTC. Bob sells 100BTC for £50000, and the 10BTC winnings for £5000. Bob owes capital gains tax on £50000-£500 initial stake. The £5000 is tax free.

The revenue only cares when the sum of money is over capital gains limit for the year, so you can put away £10k or £11k capital gains tax free each year as can a spouse.

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June 01, 2014, 12:15:54 AM
 #28


Something i thought of is if the BTC was "won via gambling" and then you buy a house well thats non taxable in UK no?

not sure about UK, but in the netherlands you'd still have to pay tax on gambling profits

buying/selling houses in BTC would seem nice at first, but cars and houses have many documentation to prove ownership and all, so avoiding taxes will be pretty much impossible. They will ask questions.
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June 01, 2014, 05:46:18 AM
 #29

Talk to (several) tax advisors first before making any assumptions.


Maybe this will help? http://www.bitlegal.net/

I'm looking forward to when bitcoin is used regularly for the purchase of real estate (especially in the USA).
Having an escrow company who specializes in R.E. transactions would be a good start. A long standing escrow company who integrates bitcoin into its existing services would be an even better start.
Maybe a company like Old Republic (nothing to do with the Star Wars game ;-). It's been awhile but ORTC (Old Republic Title Company) used to have another company (Orexco) associated with it who facilitated 1031 exchanges acting as an intermediary so it would be nice to see them also stepping into potentially facilitating "like exchanges" for crypto currencies.  


Good luck house hunting and wishing you even more good luck in finding an advisor competent enough to guide you.

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June 01, 2014, 05:54:21 AM
 #30

If you aren't on a hurry I would recomment waiting a couple of years before buying a home with your btcs,
if in 2014 you would buy a decent/big house, probably in 2016 you will have a castle...

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June 01, 2014, 08:09:00 AM
 #31

No offense but you'd have to be a total idiot to buy real estate with bitcoin.  We are still in the era of fiat mining.  Not even the richest 0.001 percent pay hard cash for real estate unless of course they are in a huge hurry and willing to take a loss.  Get some money counterfeited by the bank for you, er, I mean get a loan! 
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June 01, 2014, 10:32:07 AM
 #32

Depends on how many BTC I can earn between now and then. But seriously, if the value of a few bitcoins goes up high enough in say, five years to buy a house... would you be able to hold off spending them long enough to buy that house?
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June 01, 2014, 10:38:28 AM
 #33

I think I would end up blowing it on a car... or maybe bacon. Lots of bacon.
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June 01, 2014, 10:52:48 AM
 #34

home sellers accepting bitcoin using bitpay/coinbase?
sounds crazy but i like it

Yeah its happening right now , take a look at https://www.bitpremier.com/ .

Not sure about uk but u will need to pay tax, that is for sure. And wont be to hard to find somebody to accept bitcoin as payment, when u offer it they will accept. Nobody would turn down a sell opportunity Cheesy .

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June 01, 2014, 10:54:37 AM
 #35

And f*** UK, just buy this one https://www.bitpremier.com/items/view/495 . Isn't it awesome ? LOL Cheesy

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June 01, 2014, 12:06:57 PM
 #36

No offense but you'd have to be a total idiot to buy real estate with bitcoin.  We are still in the era of fiat mining.  Not even the richest 0.001 percent pay hard cash for real estate unless of course they are in a huge hurry and willing to take a loss.  Get some money counterfeited by the bank for you, er, I mean get a loan!  

If the UK housing market crashes and you have a mortgage is that better vs cash purchase?  (you'd have negative equity but i guess you can dump the mortgage is that the advantage?)

Also with cash buys you get on average 7% cheaper purchase to begin i have read.

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June 01, 2014, 12:22:24 PM
 #37

If you aren't on a hurry I would recomment waiting a couple of years before buying a home with your btcs,
if in 2014 you would buy a decent/big house, probably in 2016 you will have a castle...

Its the deal or no deal problem, when your bitcoin starts becoming 90% of your total net worth its time to diversify no?
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June 01, 2014, 01:34:56 PM
 #38

No offense but you'd have to be a total idiot to buy real estate with bitcoin.  We are still in the era of fiat mining.  Not even the richest 0.001 percent pay hard cash for real estate unless of course they are in a huge hurry and willing to take a loss.  Get some money counterfeited by the bank for you, er, I mean get a loan!  

If the UK housing market crashes and you have a mortgage is that better vs cash purchase?  (you'd have negative equity but i guess you can dump the mortgage is that the advantage?)

Also with cash buys you get on average 7% cheaper purchase to begin i have read.
There have been a couple of replies here re: tax treatment of UK property purchases (i.e. doesn't matter how the transaction was performed, registry for ownership requirements etc.) that sound like they know what they are talking about. If you're keen on living on the bleeding edge and setting new precedent, then my advice (IANAL) would be to check out existing legal precedent for house purchases made with other commodity assets rather than with exchangeable currency.

In other words, check out precedent for house purchases made using gold. This, here in the UK, should be easy enough as it surely isn't a rare situation. There's a lot more resistance in the UK for Bitcoin to be seen as a currency rather than a commodity / asset (for some reason - try opening a bank account for a Bitcoin business, for example), and if a formal argument had to be made (i.e. you argued with HMRC and took a Bitcoin-related tax case to the Tax Commissioners for arbitration) then I'd expect Bitcoin to be 'deemed' to be a commodity asset rather than a currency, in line with the American IRS opinion of Bitcoin.

However, the most important aspect in the UK for the capital gains treatment of property is whether the house is your primary residential dwelling or not. I haven't noticed in your posts whether you've mentioned this or not. If you're planning on buying your primary residential dwelling (you said you're currently renting, so perhaps your first home?) with Bitcoin, then you shouldn't need to pay CGT on any house price gain when realised on sale. No matter how you buy the house, if it's your primary home then you don't pay CGT - certainly not in my experience.

This, of course, assumes that the UK residential housing market will net you a gain in the near future, which is a very dodgy assumption anywhere outside of central London (which is a global market and disconnected from the rest of the UK housing market).

If you're buying commercial property or a buy-to-let residential investment property, then that's taxed like any other investment in the 'property' asset class.


If you're talking about the CGT deemed on the value difference between the Bitcoins when you first acquired them versus the final purchase price of the house (as per Land Registry registration, which you'll have to do when taking ownership, as pointed out above)... well this is the tricky bit. You'd have to declare the Bitcoins on your self assessment tax return as an asset, and you'd have to be able to value the Bitcoins as at original price of acquisition. If you mined them, then they're not free since you'd have paid for the mining hardware and the opportunity cost of doing so. If you acquired BTC early on in the game, valuation against GBP would be vague as hell because unlike most commodity markets, there is no price fix for BTC. And unlike now, with reliable exchange markets, there was no easy valuation / GBP exchange (well, Britcoin / Intersango worked for a while a few years back, but whether their 'market price' history would work in a tax court is open to debate).

Equally, I'm not sure whether Bitcoin has any guidance for asset valuation / tax treatment from HMRC (I'm not a tax lawyer, just a freelance consultant who has had to do my own company tax returns for over a decade). If there's no exclusion then I'd expect a similar treatment to gold, for the reasons stated above.

However, you'd have to declare this on the tax return, as in most other Bitcoin related trading, there's no easy way for HMRC to track Bitcoin capital gains by UK tax residents. Currently, I expect most of us in the UK don't declare Bitcoin (or any other altcoin) gains...

But being the first person in the UK to buy a *residential home* with Bitcoin would be a big story for the media here. If you didn't keep it completely secret, then I'd expect the story to be all over the national press (for non-UK residents, talking about the housing market here is a national pastime). And you can bet your life that the taxman would pick up on this. Given that you need to involve other parties (solicitors, Land Registry, the counterparty selling the house) when buying a house, keeping the transaction secret could prove rather difficult.

TL;DR - Unless someone's already bought a house with BTC in the UK, you're going to be news, and the taxman will know about the transaction purely that way. So the probability is high that you'll end up a test case for Bitcoin CGT treatment by doing this.

But I applaud your sentiment re: diversification - if your entire net worth is currently Bitcoin holdings, then you're taking a big risk and - with the volatility of Bitcoin - loads of emotional stress watching the value gyrate. UK residential property though? Have you considered buying some gold coins with the Bitcoin? Easy enough to do - plenty of reliable people selling bullion for BTC (I started off selling my mined BTC for silver and gold bullion in 2011...) - and if you wish, discreet enough to not declare to the taxman. Gold is currently cheap...

...so I give in to the rhythm, the click click clack
I'm too wasted to fight back...


BTC: 1A7HvdGGDie3P5nDpiskG8JxXT33Yu6Gct
CryptoKilla
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June 01, 2014, 04:35:05 PM
 #39

You will most likely have to pay taxes no matter which way you purchase the property. I would think your best bet would be to find someone who is selling a property and looking for bitcoin for it. It would be a challenge to have a realtor accept bitcoin especially if they have never heard of it.

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redwhitenblue
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June 02, 2014, 01:12:22 AM
 #40

Quote
Buying with bitcoin will mean avoiding tax vs cashing out bitcoin before purchase in UK im pretty sure?

I am not sure about UK tax law, but I am pretty sure that US tax law says that when you exchange one property for another property you will need to treat it as if you first sold your first property for cash and then used that cash for the 2nd property.

An example of this is as follows:
You have 100 shares of company ABC that you bought for $1 each (total cost basis of $100). The shares of ABC are now worth $50 each (total value $5,000, total appreciation, $4,900).

You exchange these 100 shares of ABC for 20 shares of company XYZ. Company XYZ are worth $250 each and the total
value of these 20 share is $5,000.

My understanding is that you would need to pay taxes on the 4900, which is the difference between the value of the shares you bought verses the cost basis of the share you purchased.

Quote
2.) Negotiating for a lowball price will be harder with bitcoin

I don't see how this would be the case. BTC is easily converted into fiat. If a buyer or seller is desperate (or otherwise urgently wants/needs to complete the transaction then the other will have an advantage.

Quote
3.) General lack of choice, we need ebay to accept bitcoin or like a bitpay for property

There are many services that assist merchants/sellers/businesses in accepting bitcoin (coinbase, bitpay, MtGox(before they failed).
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