Project #2 is industial hopping... Chaang Noi's (Goat) confession

[El Cabron]

Whatever it is... it is raping us.

Hello all.

As you know Project #2 is a service that buys and resells hashing power. We started in early December with the intent of filling the need for people wishing to buy mining contracts at sane rates. The rates where 150% to 250%. We were able to fill a few mining contracts and were able to help out a few new pools and the like but most of our income has come from hopping prop and score pools. GPUMAX had the same goal as us but is a much better and polished product than what we have so most people went to him. :/

I know hopping is a somewhat controversial issue but I see no problem with it. Hopping has been know to be an issue for months and some of the pools we hop at actively advertise that they are pro hopping. Some people would say hopping steals from other miners. This is not true at all. We do not take anything that anyone else had earned. We followed the rules that the pool set (math!). Deepbit personally asked me to stop hopping his pool and I did. No one else asked. Some people might say I was lowering the profits of ignorant/lazy miners. This I will agree with and I will keep doing it so you had best evolve. It could be just as well argued that by not making the max profit of a known and public system, it would be wasteful and seen as supporting/subsidizing the weak and broken system.

I would like to point out that no one asked me if I was hopping. Maxwell went bat shit crazy and this happened https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=62139.0 but he never thought it could be hopping. I went to the IRC chan after that event and asked how the 100% plus PPS services were making money. The response was pool hopping... Some people eh? Thank you for most everyone else who stayed calm or asked me privately before going nuts.

So, why am I going public now? Because there are problems that are hurting miners beyond being hopped. I was able to control the amount of traffic to each pool and was able to reduce congestion and prevent a whole pool from being taken off line. However now that I am being copied there is no safety and pools are being taken down. Sadly for me to prevent this and stop mining at weak pools it will only increase the market share of the person who is not limiting their power and taking down pools. This is why I tried to outbid them and pay out 117%. Yes at these rates I am taking a loss. Because I am so large and the amount of prop pools to mine are so limited 117% does not cut it.




I am putincoin and RonPaul. You can see I am the largest hoppers. However what is new and uncontrollable (by me) is the Rhino. This Rhino made the account on Jan 31st one day before Clipse's project became operational. Also wackywednesday on ars was formed around the same time and has the same amount/comparable hashing power, that comes as goes from each around the same. However Clipse has said often that he is not at all hopping so this is making it difficult for me to work with the other big hopper to keep these pools operating well. Clearly something needs to be done about this. I am 100% about the strength of bitcoin and making money but I will not do it at the cost of harming a pool.

As some of you know I have been pushing for for decentralization and p2p. I have been giving money to these projects as well. I wanted to keep doing this and not let people know how to industrial hop because now the flood gates will be open. Now anyone will be able to copy me and without the self control or the ability to keep pools operational. This sucks but that is evolution. Now is the time for everyone to go p2p or if you must move to a centralized pool go to something like eclipsemc. Deepbit and Slush can and will be hopped.

ABC pool is not a pool and as some of you know I proved that they were hopping when they sent us work. I never called my service a pool because we do not mine our own blocks. Also for the people fearing the 51% attacks, that is not me. Never was never will be.

Hate me or love me I don't care. Just make bitcoin stronger and safer, go p2p and get decentralized.

Thanks.


Edit: FWIW Clipse messaged me saying "Rhino" was not his miner and that I should stop stirring up the forum :/

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[bravetheheat]

Nvm, it seems that somebody has already inserted in the picture within your post for you.

Thanks for clearing up the issue Goat.   So what does this mean for your pool? Will we be expecting it to close?

I use "pool" because I know no other word to describe it.  

I know that I'm just one of the thousands of newbies around here, but I'd like to thank you for what you have done to help the bitcoin community. At the very least, I can see your post helping to promote p2pool. 

[martychubbs]

Nvm, it seems that somebody has already inserted in the picture within your post for you.

Thanks for clearing up the issue Goat.  So what does this mean for your pool? Will we be expecting it to close?

I am not a pool and it will close as soon as the bitcoin world adapts and changes to p2p or a better pay system. If I close up shop the other service will just take my place. I will just keep supporting p2p and decentralization. Anyone need cash to do a project that supports this, hit me up. I'm also interested in setting up a p2p pool so anyone with skills hook me up!

Thanks.

I am jealous   I think you might be the hopping king!  Anyways, you are a stand up guy.  Keep on truckin' or KFTC for us A&G fans... 

[Clipse]

This is absolutely amazing, the whole post seems to be about me for some reason.

First you make comment like this which directly implies that you say I am hornyrhino since I am the only other person here that offers 115% so clearly you are refering to me with why you raised PPS % to 117%, is there a point to this?

So, why am I going public now? Because there are problems that are hurting miners beyond being hopped. I was able to control the amount of traffic to each pool and was able to reduce congestion and prevent a whole pool from being taken off line. However now that I am being copied there is no safety and pools are being taken down. Sadly for me to prevent this and stop mining at weak pools it will only increase the market share of the person who is not limiting their power and taking down pools. This is why I tried to outbid them and pay out 117%. Yes at these rates I am taking a loss. Because I am so large and the amount of prop pools to mine are so limited 117% does not cut it.

and then you continue by posting this, not even for a second considering there is alot of hoppers on here and because the account was created before 1 February definitely points to me? Please dont become a policemen, alot of innocent people would get jailed. :

I am putincoin and RonPaul. You can see I am the largest hoppers. However what is new and uncontrollable (by me) is the Rhino. This Rhino made the account on Jan 31st one day before Clipse's project became operational. Also wackywednesday on ars was formed around the same time and has the same amount/comparable hashing power, that comes as goes from each around the same. However Clipse has said often that he is not at all hopping so this is making it difficult for me to work with the other big hopper to keep these pools operating well. Clearly something needs to be done about this. I am 100% about the strength of bitcoin and making money but I will not do it at the cost of harming a pool.

You should rename this thread, "Im stopping to hop because Clipse is killing me, I think.. maybe.. must be.. perhaps.. dont know.. could be!" because thats exactly the amount of speculation you slinged in here.

I will even be publishing our own blocks mined when pool goes public, this is work in progress.

I will continue doing my thing and moving the pool into a public pool even if prop pools stop existing and I hope you will come back to this thread when that happens and remove all the references to me, this is pathetic. I dont expect you to have that decency however considering the ton of crap you posted.

As per our PM messages I was willing to include you into my pool developments since you stated you wanted to work with me but this would not happen as I dont think its in anyones interest to work with you after all the slandering you put together in this thread. I guess this is your way of acting out because I didnt immediately say yes and you made it clear constantly you dont have any development skills and thats why I didnt immediately accept you into my Pool project (which actually have a future unlike yours) since you couldnt even tell me what you would bring to the party if we were working together. I dont believe in free lunches, sorry.

[Clipse]

Interesting reply. I do hope you understand that having a pool and paying more than 100% constantly without hopping makes as much sense as your currency exchange program.   

I'm not going to stop hopping because you are killing me. I'm not the one being hurt by this. I'm letting the community know what will happen now with these smaller pools and why they keep failing.

Your plan to make your own pool and use it as a back up does not mean that you are not hopping. I could do the same and I show many blocks but that would not mean I'm not hopping :/

If you had asked in one of your many PMs I would have removed your name but since you responded to this publicly I think it would be a bit silly to remove your name. I made the edit before you posted that you claimed not be Rhino.

Project #2 will not last forever, as soon as we get decentralized and go p2p it will die. I hope we kill this service as fast as we can.

Thanks.

I dont claim to make my own pool and then use it as a backup, stop smoking thai butt. I am continuing with my current pool and once 100% confident in stability I will move it to the public signup process.

You have no idea what I will offer with my pool in the future, what percentages I would offer or what type of bonus thus speculating about that is just plain dumb. I never claimed to remain at 115% forever, not when I first posted about my pool and not in recent posts either. There is a good chance I would be moving to more reasonable and maintainable PPS rates as I stated initially in my thread that I plan to only run a high PPS rate for a month(if not shorter, depends on local buying backlog.. you dont have to believe and I seriously dont care)

I never claimed to have a mysterious longterm(more than a few weeks) solution to earn above 100% earnings on bitcoins except for the initial buyers who actually wants coins however this gave me the option to get into the pool hosting position along with solving the buyers requests for coins at a higher rate(as I stated in my OP of my pool thread)

Regarding showing blocks, I know you cant do that since I know you cant even setup a pool no less than maintaining it with your limited skillsets (which you told me about) , perhaps you could do this by paying someone the thousands of dollars you apparently spend on setting up your current pool hopping, someone ripped you off or you simple lack any business skills.

Showing blocks(once we have enough) could be verified that we are the owners and that its within the norm compared to poolhashrate meaning its legit.

Im glad I found out now rather than later just what scummy business practices you run and then pulling others who try to run a proper business longterm into your scummy threads when you find out its not profitable enough for you to do whatever you were doing(hopping as it seems) and making others look bad(me) as if I am part of it.

At the end I should really just blame myself, I should never have responded to your first PM you send me about a week ago and never have even considered the option of having you work with me longterm since you are clearly badnews to work with.

[Brunic]

My little confession: I splitted my farm in 2, running half at your two projects (Goat and Clipse). Each other as a backup, so you don't fail me

Honestly, I don't really care about what you do with my hashes is moral/ethic/whatever. I'm not being paid to discuss philosophy, I'm being paid to mine, and my job is to find the best mining opportunities.

One thing is sure, is that I respect people who build projects. You should not feel ashamed about what you do. People complain because either, they're doing the exact same thing, they're doing the complete opposite or they're doing nothing at all.

So, you're destroying Proportional pools? What's the problem? Prop is a payment model that screw the loyal miner, and profits to the unfaithful one. The proof is there, you profit so much from showing no loyalty that you can offer PPS at 115%. Doing that, you probably did the best thing that could happen to p2pool. It's like "Hey guys, I'm showing you that you are getting so screwed over". You're even starting to destroy pools, that's awesome. You're giving them the chance of finding p2pool, and making the switch.

This is the start of the end for Prop pools. In the meantime, you can be sure I'm going to profit from your awesome offer.  

PS: Seems the debate is getting hotter. I would suggest you guys to simply focus on your own project. If you have time to shittalk, it means your project is not awesome enough. Make it more awesome!

[farfiman]

why is this in OFFTOPIC?

Pools would be better unless it's just a goat vs clipse thread

[rampone]

Actually I like every bitcoiner, and a expat in thai I can just like and a bh veteran is family.
Except 1 Thing: y u 2 had to go so public!!!
BH was soooo off the radar...
nice steady extra income...this might be over.. TY in advance (hopefully i do not have to thank you

There is a "hopping" way for airline tickets get the price down)...at least that is still a sikrit society ... hahaha


tl;dr: Hopping is the devil...again

[Clipse]

Sorry you are disappointed Clipse but you knew the limits I was willing to tolerate in this.

You made your claim and said you are not hopping. I said that in the OP twice.

I did not pay thousands of dollars for bithopper lol. It is open source, you know this, and we know you use it.

My programing skills are not great as many people know. I can not create the p2p pool that I want. My business skills however are a bit better than my programing skills as many people also know.

Your PM saying you would "expose me" (after I posted this thread of all things!) shows me what type of person you are. It is clear that we will not be friends :/ But I am not worried, I'm sure others will soon hate me and many already do.

Peace

Well plot thickens, you told me in the very first PM you paid alot of money to develop your software that you use (which is bithopper as you now said)

You again say I use bithopper for my users on the pool. You dont even claim it, you state it as fact. I have my own mining farm thats seperate from the users mining on the pool, this farm is hopping ever since june 2011 and I never denied that fact from the start. If I wanted to use the hashing power of users to hop I would have simply stated it from the start, it would not have changed anything nor affect the user signups but I chose not to hop for various reasons which you dont deserve an explaination for simply because you act childish around here.

The PM I send you was unrelated to this thread, I didnt even see this thread until you pointed it out in your reply to my PM. My PM was related to you pointing fingers at me in the bitclockers thread regarding the rhino guy.

Lastly, I had nothing against you and would still have nothing against you making this thread if you didnt decide to add me into your business practices that you now expose. I have nothing to do with your crap, leave me out of it however you continuously add me to your own posts. Again, I have nothing to do with you so stop refering to me when it comes to your own crappy business models.

I dont hate people, I just dont deal with them if they have shown to be untrustworthy and continously bringing my name into your dealings just shows what you will do to others when you cant maintain your own business ideas anymore.

[Clipse]

why is this in OFFTOPIC?

Pools would be better unless it's just a goat vs clipse thread

Thats what I also want to know, the OP clearly comes down to him vs me, and I have no fking clue why hes pulling me into his mess.

[Clipse]

Actually I like every bitcoiner, and a expat in thai I can just like and a bh veteran is family.
Except 1 Thing: y u 2 had to go so public!!!
BH was soooo off the radar...
nice steady extra income...this might be over.. TY in advance (hopefully i do not have to thank you

There is a "hopping" way for airline tickets get the price down)...at least that is still a sikrit society ... hahaha


tl;dr: Hopping is the devil...again

Again, its not us 2 going public with this, Its goat on his own missing except pulling me through his muddy backyard.

Im done responding to any of these retarded threads or comments, people must just read and believe the crap posted on here and all around goat, I couldnt care anymore. Hes on a mission to include me in his failed attempts of running a business using his ways and now only because I had a similar offering he includes me into the same business practices.

Leave me out of this.

[rampone]

Okay Clipse, I do not want to tret on somebodys Schlips (meaning: i do not want to nag someone).  Ill just write:

Y U HAD TO GO PUBLIC  (U "Standing for people making meta hopping pools"


But you have to admit: first goat: hello: 100+% pps    now clipse: Hello: 100+% pps

And a heartbreaking story about a community...u u u. Pretty obvious what people think... also no open pool address.

I like to believe what a lot of people say...

I stand by my point: Y U HAD TO GO PUBLIC, WE WERE OFF THE RADAR

clipse: if you do not hop, than your release time was really bad for people not to think you hop... you should know and aknowledge that and you could have posted it differently like "PPS no fee with bonus"... not "115%PPS" like goat. If you want to be different and not associated than BE different. Also be open and post pool URL.

People in poker tend to talk a lot while bluffing.

To goat: nobody asked does not mean nobody knew

[dmcurser]

ok im not hear to defend anyone or anything but hey clipse maybe you should post pics of you standing in front of your 50 gh mining pool of yours with todays newspaper or somthing i see in your other post that you have a 50 gh farm and thats how you pay everyone so maybe thats a good way to clear your name if you cant offe that then who is to believe that your not doing the same as goat

[rampone]

dmcurser: clipse definitely has a farm, dunno if 50gh/s. it is def. over 10 gh/s.

[dmcurser]

i understand that he does all im saying is show a little more proof of said it might help him out a little more then just saying i dont hop blah blah blah and 10gh is pretty easy to achiever i think 50 id like to see lol pics are always nice anyways give new ideas for me to setup more rigs as well lol

[rampone]

dunno about others, can talk about me. I actually thought about asking u in pm, but then i was like: no, I like schrödingers cat. To really know certain takes out the fun Probably a lot of people did not get it. But like i said: we were off the radar...

greetz to not the samui area, somewhere northern, forgot where u lived at, but heard u wanted to visit samui this year

[rampone]

deleted.too stoopid to read op post

[rampone]

LOL, even if rhino is clipse (which he says he is not), u are like half of the top10 @ clockers right now. So rhino is actually not the problem i guess as he is about 33% of goat.

oh darn...this aint good.

[rampone]

Goat, you did not follow the first rule of the club by starting your "business". Now that the club seems to get trouble by your opening the pandoras box you blame others by again breaking the first rule of the club? I am sorry, but i do not understand. Y U NO DIVIDE WORKER and stay below the minimum radar height. Does the pool have way too much Buoyancy which u can not handle and make it become a submarine? Ah forgot: U never went below the min height. U wanted to be seen....

[rampone]

I made my point and u dont remember ur first post where u blame a second entity/others causing problems.

You, sir, are officially a self stated member of the club by first post.

(and if deepbit asked you stop hopping and you did, then you even kind of obeyed unwritten ethics rule #2: We do not want to kill pools)

You are for decentralization, but centralized a decentralized hopping network.  mmmhkay

"Nonhop" DDOS on centralized mining pools were never a problem for hoppers, we were not fixed on one pool. Even if all pools are gone: backup solo mining. Most classic miners probably have only two pools, maybe three pools in their config heightening the chance that their hashrate will vanish with a ddos on multiplepools...

Also our "proxy" (the hopping program) was not centralized on one or two server. No, everyone runs his own.

If you are for decentralization as you kind of try to show everyone.... I guess you will have to switch off the phat centralized hopping pool, won't you?

PS: One thing should have been crystal clear to you, which obviously was not. There is a natural barrier for hopping. U sir, are adding a lotta pressure. We will see if the ballon pops or already popped in the next time and I still would not mind sipping a beerlao somewhere in SEA with you