S3052 and Manipulation Techniques

[N12]

First off, I have been a subscriber myself for a considerable time, and it hasn’t always been like this. Second, I do not want to attack S3052, but when I see the bullshit the public and subscribers get served, I just have to call it out.

Why I am no longer subscribed is that S3052’s analysis devolved 1) into a weekly newsletter with updated charts and more importantly, 2) almost pyramid-like zero sum CRASH or RALLY short-term updates.

The subscribers obviously have a disproportionate influence over the market, because they act all at once and the market is already small. Subscribers are also likely to have a bunch of BTC due to the cost of 5 BTC/month.

Now, what happens when he issues a short-term CRASH alert is that people race to sell WITHOUT REVIEWING THE ANALYSIS because they want to be first. So when his E-Mail hits, all subscribers try to sell before each other, creating what we have seen.

So, what is the problem?

The problem, or the - almost a kind of scam – is that a) subscribers only sell to buy back immediately at lower levels, so the last one loses out and b) the public gets spammed with suggestive manipulation AFTER the subscribers have sold.

I have already seen this multiple times as a subscriber myself, and it is despicable.

Solution: Either make your analysis completely public or completely private. If you share analysis to influence the public for your subscribers’ gains and make money off it, I see a huge moral issue.

[bb113]

I don't see any problem with that...

Further, arguments like this have been dealt with over and over on these forums and throughout human history. I bet eventually we will find out you are whining because you lost money. So what is the real purpose of my post?

[proudhon]

S3052, my advice is not to make public announcements that you've made private updates.  This most recent public update just looks like a reaction to your subscribers/the market not reacting as strongly as you had hoped to your private update and private update announcement.  I don't mean any disrespect, but that's just the way it comes off.

[N12]

I bet eventually we will find out you are whining because you lost money. So what is the real purpose of my post?

I didn’t, the rate is above my purchase price and secondly, I sold over 5.9. And now GTFO with your Ad Hominems.

Where is the moral issue when someone suggests you do something, and you do it? Who is to blame?

If S3052 making a few comments on the bitcointalk forums can manipulate people into buying or selling Bitcoins, who is to blame?

I don’t want to argue with your libertarian "might makes right market manipulation is cool with me" logic. I am sure you do not agree with many of my morals. There is a moral issue when someone says he is an expert and then advises the public only to make his subscribers profit because the information is then biased, i.e. not descriptive, but suggestive. There is also a moral issue when an analysis consists of a race to act upon it first without actually reading it.

S3052, my advice is not to make public announcements that you've made private updates.  This most recent public update just looks like a reaction to your subscribers/the market not reacting as strongly as you had hoped to your private update and private update announcement.  I don't mean any disrespect, but that's just the way it comes off.

Why, so he can just serve the public the same thing but without them even knowing that it’s just for the subscribers to profit off? That would be even worse in my view.

Why I am primarily posting this is to warn both subscribers and the public from getting sucked into what I have detailled in my OP, as it can lead to losing money.

[N12]

This isn't a might makes right argument. And I don't believe might makes right.

This is a protect yourself argument because no one is going to do it for you.

Listen, philosophically, and in an ideal world, I agree with you, but this is speculation, and this is the real world with real people who aren’t all on the same level to see through all BS, and they won’t ever be.  If you want to debate this stuff, we can take it into the Politics forum.

There is a reason market manipulation is a crime, and while I don’t think the actual analysis is manipulation at all, the dynamic of short term updates and subscribers have developed pyramid-like traits among their own dynamic to react upon them, and I believe that S3052 should be made aware of it if he isn’t yet (which I find hard to believe). Plus of course the "public updates" moral issue in which he basically suggests to the public to give his subscribers money.

How about another suggestion? For the PR, S3052 could make private analysis and NOT publish it for a week or two, then publish and evaluate the advice he gave after the situation has changed.

[zby]

I don't agree with the moral stance - I don't think anyone posts his predictions here before he made his move - but I do agree that the dynamics of market reactions to S3052 predictions is an interesting subject.  My latest theory is that the "price supporter" reads S3052.

[P4man]

IMO its pretty akin to insider trading.

[S3052]

Every analysis we do, be it for subscribers only or for the public contains unbiased analysis based on technical analysis methods, and this can be verified by the charts we display. If anyone disagrees with our analysis, they are all free to post their alternative.

[teflone]

Every analysis we do, be it for subscribers only or for the public contains unbiased analysis based on technical analysis methods, and this can be verified by the charts we display. If anyone disagrees with our analysis, they are all free to post their alternative.

Your just the first lemming that starts running after you yell fire, then stops at the cliffs edge and take 5 coins for the "flight" down...

Im sure your not listening to all your own "advice"

Self fullfilling prophacy...

[cunicula]

If you share analysis to influence the public for your subscribers’ gains and make money off it, I see a huge moral issue.

That is all technical analysis is. In all cases, markets, etc. Ever. Period.

If you want to stop it, then the best method is to ridicule. Target the people who propound bullshit, belittle those who follow them.

I guarantee you hate triumphs over ignorance every time. We just need to muster the collective will.

It is not a science, does not claim to be a science, you cannot use scientific methods to disprove it. It is more of a religion.
Accordingly, the appropriate method for dealing with people who peddle or buy into the stuff is persecution.

Persecute the fuckers and drive them from here!!!

[Hexadecibel]

[Sock Puppet]

This is indeed speculation, and isn't the entire goal of speculation to make money off the ups and downs of the market?

Yes, and I have no problem with him providing the best information to PREDICT the ups and downs.

I DO have a problem when he starts CAUSING the ups and downs.

[finway]

Free is good.

[Elwar]

How do I sign up for this market predictor that rises and falls based upon the e-mail sent out?

Sounds like an e-mail a friend of mine was signed up for with stock advice. He would wait for the e-mail to say what stock would go up or down, then he would immediately buy or sell. Then everyone else who received the e-mail would do the same and he would buy or sell at a slight profit.

I like profit.

Please point me to this source of profit.

[Sock Puppet]

I would remind you gentlemen that this is a free market.

And I would remind you that just because you can do a thing does not make it right.

This, like all the similar manipulations we see in stocks, creates big waves that are profitable to people who have the advantage, at the expense of everyone else.

If this was a casino, fine, have your fun.

I do not want to play in this stupid scam.  I want to use BitCoin for things that aren't a zero-sum game of trying to screw the other guy just a little bit faster to make a profit at his expense.

I want to use BitCoin to CREATE VALUE, and until it's established well enough to resist this kind of manipulation, this insider trading scam is screwing it up for the rest of us.

[Jon]

Might makes reality and Bitcoin is a very powerful tool. No authority besides the trading parties involved can unilaterally convey how Bitcoin should and should not be traded. If restrictions are instilled on the current marketplaces, new and freer ones will pop up in its place.

People are free to trade as they please in the Bitcoin world. We better start getting used to it.

All you can do is attempt to share your culture and what you feel should be done in hopes that others may agree.

[Elwar]

If you feed the monster, it grows larger and is harder to move.


It jumped in June to $30 because there were a small amount of people throwing in some money.

Now it is harder to have such huge jumps because there are more people in the market throwing in their money.


The same market exists for gold. You can subscribe to newsletters telling you which way gold is headed. The only difference is that a lot of people own gold so the result is not so dramatic.

If you do not like the manipulation, encourage more people to come and manipulate for their own gain.

[N12]

Might makes reality and Bitcoin is a very powerful tool. No authority besides the trading parties involved can unilaterally convey how Bitcoin should and should not be traded. If restrictions are instilled on the current marketplaces, new and freer ones will pop up in its place.

People are free to trade as they please in the Bitcoin world. We better start getting used to it.

All you can do is attempt to share your culture and what you feel should be done in hopes that others may agree.

Get out of my thread, Atlas. You should be contained to Politics & Society where your pseudo-philosophical babble belongs to.

Thanks.

[Jon]

Might makes reality and Bitcoin is a very powerful tool. No authority besides the trading parties involved can unilaterally convey how Bitcoin should and should not be traded. If restrictions are instilled on the current marketplaces, new and freer ones will pop up in its place.

People are free to trade as they please in the Bitcoin world. We better start getting used to it.

All you can do is attempt to share your culture and what you feel should be done in hopes that others may agree.

Get out of my thread, Atlas. You should be contained to Politics & Society where your pseudo-philosophical babble belongs to.

Thanks.

I think you are mistaking me for somebody else.

[Jon]

The issue here is some people believe its a crime to value and trade commodities based on needs and wants other than their own. They believe it's irrational to want to use Bitcoins just to trade and play with when they just want to use them as currency. Supply-and-demand makes it more convenient for them to buy and sell from these people with conflicting missions. They don't like that.

They consider it a question of morality. They believe Bitcoins being only used for their needs and wants is a universal good.

I consider it only a matter of emotional preference.