Solution to poverty - Socialism or Capitalism?

[Bitmore]

What is said is that humanity bears sensibility insufficient for its own excession. Indeed, something exceeding them must hail upon the beast for that.

So you trust what elite to make the decisions for the majority?  In spite of what they may want? 

Hitler tired that. 

So did Stalin, Pol Pot, and Mao.

[username18333]

What is said is that humanity bears sensibility insufficient for its own excession. Indeed, something exceeding them must hail upon the beast for that.

So you trust what elite to make the decisions for the majority?  In spite of what they may want?  

Hitler tired that.  

So did Stalin, Pol Pot, and Mao.

emp. Limakasidios, an authoritarian anarchist and limakasidian entropist.

[coinits]

looks like it might be ebola.

That is an interesting point.  

Ebola, if it requires quarantine, could tear apart our liberties and freedoms and way of life for the socialistic "for the people".    

That is if the government (or Russians who had the bio-weapons development since they cheated the Chem/Bio weapons treaty since the 1973 treaty) didn't create the whole disease/crisis in the first place.

So has the USA. There are five types of Ebola virus and the newest strain is named Bundibugyo, or Ebobun for short. The U.S. government holds a patent on Bundibugyo Ebola — US20120251502 A1 , for “Human Ebola Virus Species and Compositions and Methods Thereof” related to the Bundibugyo version of the virus.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CkHL2K7CmZg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ALsOWR0ZcyA

Yes they are sick mofos.

[username18333]

looks like it might be ebola.

That is an interesting point.  

Ebola, if it requires quarantine, could tear apart our liberties and freedoms and way of life for the socialistic "for the people".    

That is if the government (or Russians who had the bio-weapons development since they cheated the Chem/Bio weapons treaty since the 1973 treaty) didn't create the whole disease/crisis in the first place.

So has the USA. There are five types of Ebola virus and the newest strain is named Bundibugyo, or Ebobun for short. The U.S. government holds a patent on Bundibugyo Ebola — US20120251502 A1 , for “Human Ebola Virus Species and Compositions and Methods Thereof” related to the Bundibugyo version of the virus.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CkHL2K7CmZg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ALsOWR0ZcyA

Yes they are sick mofos.

For what have they proceeded against your men if not for His man?

[DonCrypto]

Give everyone a Bitcoin account.. donate a percentage of processing fees to the registered less fortunate.. or give it all to me.

[coinits]

Give everyone a Bitcoin account.. donate a percentage of processing fees to the registered less fortunate.. or give it all to me.

and buy ebola....

[Bitmore]

Bitmore
I am describing 19 century Europe that do look like your paradise with basically no rule about your walfare mainly
No revenu tax, no capital gain tax, no capital tax, and no VAT.This MUCH more true in the working environment where there is NO rule except few state monopoly that is not the subject here.
You got maximum liberty as there is few rules (compared to today).Hell if a workman wanted to work 20 hours a day to get rich, he could!  This totaly free capitalism invented legal mass slavery. And the law where not responsible for that (except maybe there absence).

Socialism IS mass slavery.
What I am saying is that 19 century Europe, or any time Europe never was the 'capitalist paradise'.  There was never a sustainable free trade when you have what amount to slaves producing something that the workers could not afford.  Henery Ford I believe wanted to make something that the MIDDLE CLASS could afford.   THAT was invented in the industrial revolution in the US, with free labor able to organize and bargain collectively.  Government did not, nor could not create the real capitalist paradise that the US became in the 20th century that left the rest of the world behind in quality of life.

Capitalist used the fear of loosing a job to lower wages. They used automatisation to simplify the work, leading to kids and women working ( they are cheaper than men). Family where so poor that they send there kids every time younger to work. Leading to even more pressure on wages and more poverty if you didn't send your kid.
They didn't do it because they are specially bad poeple, i would probably too. They did it because they could. this is the nature of capital: turning 2 to 4.

A free market society with rights to private property would allow people to accumulate wealth, and build on it.  That didn't happen in 19th century Europe for a lot of reasons mostly regarding the established wealth and land ownership that existed prior to the industrial age.  There were options for those workers, but that only included to be returned to being serfs for the land owners in Europe, but that wasn't the reality in the US where land ownership was available to the poorest people who traveled out of the city, homesteaded and created their own self sustaining lives.  So your example is not quite honest.[/quote]

Kid working from 6 to 8 pm from 6  to 18 leaded to smaller, half retared population.

That would explain a lot of what has happened in Europe in the last 300 years... (LOL)

this time, women working means nobody to take care of the baby leading to up to 25% death rate from 0 to 1. At the age of 1 you can't feed yourself.

Life was pretty brutal in those times except for the elite.  That goes for about everywhere.

Living condition was much worst than during the 18 century.
Free the capital now, you will get that back.

Are you sure about that?   I have doubt.

so what is left? Not much to be honest. A mix of freedom and regulation.
To me socialism is about those rules and it hads very nice result and very bad.
what is YOUR exemple of good "capitalism" ?

Anyway to me the problem is more politic and the way so-democracy works...

As I said, capitalism is best under a moral society where people are inspired to be ethical.  It has, and it is falling apart in absence of morality.  It succeeded when it adhered to a moral code.  Forced charity, or socialism, is not charity and it ends up not being humane in the end.  It ends up being brute force.

[username18333]

Bitmore
I am describing 19 century Europe that do look like your paradise with basically no rule about your walfare mainly
No revenu tax, no capital gain tax, no capital tax, and no VAT.This MUCH more true in the working environment where there is NO rule except few state monopoly that is not the subject here.
You got maximum liberty as there is few rules (compared to today).Hell if a workman wanted to work 20 hours a day to get rich, he could!  This totaly free capitalism invented legal mass slavery. And the law where not responsible for that (except maybe there absence).

Socialism IS mass slavery.
What I am saying is that 19 century Europe, or any time Europe never was the 'capitalist paradise'.  There was never a sustainable free trade when you have what amount to slaves producing something that the workers could not afford.  THAT was invented in the industrial revolution in the US, with free labor able to organize and bargain collectively.  Government did not, nor could not create the real capitalist paradise that the US became in the 20th century that left the rest of the world behind in quality of life.

Capitalist used the fear of loosing a job to lower wages. They used automatisation to simplify the work, leading to kids and women working ( they are cheaper than men). Family where so poor that they send there kids every time younger to work. Leading to even more pressure on wages and more poverty if you didn't send your kid.
They didn't do it because they are specially bad poeple, i would probably too. They did it because they could. this is the nature of capital: turning 2 to 4.

A free market society with rights to private property would allow people to accumulate wealth, and build on it.  That didn't happen in 19th century Europe for a lot of reasons mostly regarding the established wealth and land ownership that existed prior to the industrial age.  There were options for those workers, but that only included to be returned to being serfs for the land owners in Europe, but that wasn't the reality in the US where land ownership was available to the poorest people who traveled out of the city, homesteaded and created their own self sustaining lives.  So your example is not quite honest.

Kid working from 6 to 8 pm from 6  to 18 leaded to smaller, half retared population.

That would explain a lot of what has happened in Europe in the last 300 years... (LOL)

this time, women working means nobody to take care of the baby leading to up to 25% death rate from 0 to 1. At the age of 1 you can't feed yourself.

Life was pretty brutal in those times except for the elite.  That goes for about everywhere.

Living condition was much worst than during the 18 century.
Free the capital now, you will get that back.

Are you sure about that?   I have doubt.

so what is left? Not much to be honest. A mix of freedom and regulation.
To me socialism is about those rules and it hads very nice result and very bad.
what is YOUR exemple of good "capitalism" ?

Anyway to me the problem is more politic and the way so-democracy works...

As I said, capitalism is best under a moral society where people are inspired to be ethical.  It has, and it is falling apart in absence of morality.  It succeeded when it adhered to a moral code.

"In knowing those labors they ought, they know those riches they should."

This is what you miss.

[Bitmore]

Maybe something is lost in the translation, but that makes no sense.


lets try this;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=muHg86Mys7I

[Bitmore]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NwztaQgv3-Y

Or this.

[username18333]

Maybe something is lost in the translation, but that makes no sense.


lets try this;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=muHg86Mys7I

If I fashion "A" by virtue, and he grows "B" by virtue, we both have "A" and "B" (as we ought [by virtue]).

[coinits]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NwztaQgv3-Y

Or this.

Or...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Ayxot9vQ_k

[username18333]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NwztaQgv3-Y

Or this.

Or...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Ayxot9vQ_k

Beast may comprehend little beyond a whip.

[Bitmore]

I think it is important to add, that a pure democracy is not the ideal.   In fact, a pure democracy would allow for slavery of the minority.  That is why we live in a democratically elected, representative republic.  Republic being the critical word (no I am not a Republican).  Republic I believe relates to the latin term for rule of law, under which everyone has equal responsibility.  Even the highest leader has to obey the law just as much as the poorest citizen.  That clearly is not the case in this country today, where the elite are exempt from the law it seems.

[username18333]

I think it is important to add, that a pure democracy is not the ideal.   In fact, a pure democracy would allow for slavery of the minority.  That is why we live in a democratically elected, representative republic.  Republic being the critical word (no I am not a Republican).  Republic I believe relates to the latin term for rule of law, under which everyone has equal responsibility.  Even the highest leader has to obey the law just as much as the poorest citizen.  That clearly is not the case in this country today, where the elite are exempt from the law it seems.

Republican democracy is merely a means to having one's oligarchy accepted by the people ("unwashed masses").

[coinits]

I think it is important to add, that a pure democracy is not the ideal.   In fact, a pure democracy would allow for slavery of the minority.  That is why we live in a democratically elected, representative republic.  Republic being the critical word (no I am not a Republican).  Republic I believe relates to the latin term for rule of law, under which everyone has equal responsibility.  Even the highest leader has to obey the law just as much as the poorest citizen.  That clearly is not the case in this country today, where the elite are exempt from the law it seems.

Republican democracy is merely a means to having one's oligarchy accepted by the people ("unwashed masses").

A Democratic Republic prevents mob rule which is what Democracy is. It is one of the worst forms of governance that exists. I find it interesting that the US Politicans, including Obama, talk about how the USA is a democracy and never mention the truth.

A Democracy is two wolves and one sheep voting on what's for dinner.
In a Democratic Republic the sheep will have a gun.

[username18333]

I think it is important to add, that a pure democracy is not the ideal.   In fact, a pure democracy would allow for slavery of the minority.  That is why we live in a democratically elected, representative republic.  Republic being the critical word (no I am not a Republican).  Republic I believe relates to the latin term for rule of law, under which everyone has equal responsibility.  Even the highest leader has to obey the law just as much as the poorest citizen.  That clearly is not the case in this country today, where the elite are exempt from the law it seems.

Republican democracy is merely a means to having one's oligarchy accepted by the people ("unwashed masses").

A Democratic Republic prevents mob rule which is what Democracy is. It is one of the worst forms of governance that exists. I find it interesting that the US Politicans, including Obama, talk about how the USA is a democracy and never mention the truth.

A Democracy is two wolves and one sheep voting on what's for dinner.
In a Democratic Republic the sheep will have a gun.

A democratic republic is two wolves and a snake voting a lion president.

[coinits]

I think it is important to add, that a pure democracy is not the ideal.   In fact, a pure democracy would allow for slavery of the minority.  That is why we live in a democratically elected, representative republic.  Republic being the critical word (no I am not a Republican).  Republic I believe relates to the latin term for rule of law, under which everyone has equal responsibility.  Even the highest leader has to obey the law just as much as the poorest citizen.  That clearly is not the case in this country today, where the elite are exempt from the law it seems.

Republican democracy is merely a means to having one's oligarchy accepted by the people ("unwashed masses").

A Democratic Republic prevents mob rule which is what Democracy is. It is one of the worst forms of governance that exists. I find it interesting that the US Politicans, including Obama, talk about how the USA is a democracy and never mention the truth.

A Democracy is two wolves and one sheep voting on what's for dinner.
In a Democratic Republic the sheep will have a gun.

A democratic republic is two wolves and a snake voting a lion Kenyan president.

Fixed

[glub0x]

During 19 century there were no rule preventing a worker to get rich. Wages went down so much it was impossible...
The funny thing is that in many point in england where there where no slave working work condition looks comparable in human pain that coton field of usa.
That is what a nice capitalist system provided with very cheap goods ( from slavery) manage to do.

As I said, capitalism is best under a moral society where people are inspired to be ethical.  It has, and it is falling apart in absence of morality.  It succeeded when it adhered to a moral code.  Forced charity, or socialism, is not charity and it ends up not being humane in the end.  It ends up being brute force.

Capitalism has nothing to do with moral.
If moral prevent to multiply 2 into 4, moral will change. This is pure logic, money has already proven to alter poeple's mind.
19 century was religious and "moral", yet it create work condition that would not have been accepted before.
Law might help.
Do you think law regulating working hours, creating safe working environment, giving holidays, preventing child labour ... are good laws?
How do you call the movement that produce those  kind of laws?


I agree with you about the distinction of republic and democracy. which is important and not mentioned a lot. Democracy is a popular word i guess.

Now what about a "pure" democracy where the constitution guarantee equal treatment of people? Would that suits you?
Also how do you know it is one of the worst form of government? There is really no such example in history ...
On the other hand, with all those nice example of history you cited, you must know that our nice democratic republic also produce its lot of dictator.

[bcmine]

Hey everyone. In today's developed world where we have glasses that can access the internet and robots that can think on their own, it is a shame that there are still people in parts of the world living under 1$ a day.
What can governments do to end poverty in their countries? Is a solution possible under capitalism? Or did Karl Marx had the right idea with his recommendation of a socialist government?

Darvinism, what i believe in, like evolution is clearly saying that poverty cant be get rid off. Its human, so far in the 21st century. no tendensy of changing.

neither socialism or capitalism cant eliminate poverty. Just people in poverty itself can change it by themself (but also not really).