The Open Source Block Erupter Project

[loshia]

Yes led Boy
Why?
1. Because not everyone get same prices
2. Because not every one are licking manufacturer asses
3. Because it is a market and if someone get X price for Y chip it may turn out that other one can get 5X price for same Y chip. And magic Y chip which supposed to be the cheapest one suddenly becomes the expensive one of them all

Get ready for Christmas boy. Led tree market is raising
Greets Bick

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[CanaryInTheMine]

Suggestions, modifications and brand new designs are all welcome.

I would interconnect the four board's power requirements into a single pair of PCIe connections.

I would injection mould or extrude a plastic clip to interlock the handles so they can be assembled into a matrix.

I dunno... Current design leaves power flexible... You can repurpose all kinds of older/cheaper PSUs
AND when next gen chip is out, you could upgrade one board at a time too instead of replacing whole device if power is interconnected

[necro_nemesis]

Suggestions, modifications and brand new designs are all welcome.

I would interconnect the four board's power requirements into a single pair of PCIe connections.

I would injection mould or extrude a plastic clip to interlock the handles so they can be assembled into a matrix.

I dunno... Current design leaves power flexible... You can repurpose all kinds of older/cheaper PSUs
AND when next gen chip is out, you could upgrade one board at a time too instead of replacing whole device if power is interconnected

Seen. Edit I would put a provision in to interconnect the four board's power requirements into a single pair of PCIe connections. The idea is to eliminate the requirement to purchase splitters or adapters for larger PSU's to power the system which could be viewed as a negative.

There are many of us that have acquired pretty substantial power supplies due to previous system inefficiencies. I would also look at something that can take advantage of connecting to the abundance of used server supplies available out there. If you can demonstrate a cost savings for the entire system through intelligent design and save the customers in areas that won't effect your own bottom line it's a more attractive product at the cost of thinking the full implementation through.

The ability to nest miners with relatively inexpensive clips also becomes a savings in not requiring racks to form a stable rig set up. It also predisposes people to continue to buy the same product since it can be added to in a modular manner.

AM Lego.

I assume this system is designed to have a host controller like a Raspberry Pi. I would anticipate busses to be able to interconnect as well again reducing the number of lines to the system.

[CanaryInTheMine]

Suggestions, modifications and brand new designs are all welcome.

I would interconnect the four board's power requirements into a single pair of PCIe connections.

I would injection mould or extrude a plastic clip to interlock the handles so they can be assembled into a matrix.

I dunno... Current design leaves power flexible... You can repurpose all kinds of older/cheaper PSUs
AND when next gen chip is out, you could upgrade one board at a time too instead of replacing whole device if power is interconnected

Seen. Edit I would put a provision in to interconnect the four board's power requirements into a single pair of PCIe connections. The idea is to eliminate the requirement to purchase splitters or adapters for larger PSU's to power the system which could be viewed as a negative.

There are many of us that have acquired pretty substantial power supplies due to previous system inefficiencies. I would also look at something that can take advantage of connecting to the abundance of used server supplies available out there. If you can demonstrate a cost savings for the entire system through intelligent design and save the customers in areas that won't effect your own bottom line it's a more attractive product at the cost of thinking the full implementation through.

The ability to nest miners with relatively inexpensive clips also becomes a savings in not requiring racks to form a stable rig set up. It also predisposes people to continue to buy the same product since it can be added to in a modular manner.

AM Lego.

I assume this system is designed to have a host controller like a Raspberry Pi. I would anticipate busses to be able to interconnect as well again reducing the number of lines to the system.

I think because of the plethora of different PSUs out there, it's most economical to just use longer pci-e 6/8 pin cables to connect to source PSUs and modify/vut solder as needed. breakout boards for dell/hp/ibm servers come to mind...

yes, a host controller can be a computer, a Pi or an x24-specific microcontroller (perhaps will be released here too), 32 boards can be linked together (8 devices) the controller connects to one board, rest are cascaded (serial connection).

[jimmothy]

Would they use these chips if they can get something more powerful same price or lower?

Of course not if it is cheaper and equally or more efficient. But if it is the same price they would probably still go with AM simply due to the fact that FC delivers.

Just asking? Would they want to make something that required all that aluminum? Even Marto isn't selling boards now with all his new designs... guess chips cost too much to make a profit compared to Bitmain offerings. Guess that small fabricator is going out of business as well.

Where exactly do you see "all that aluminum"? I just downloaded the cad files and it looks like it uses only 0.64 0.32 lbs of aluminum (excluding heatsinks).

Also it uses a single 120mm fan for cooling. I don't know if it gets better than that. Maybe a single 180mm fan would be better although there is a much better selection on 120-140mm fans.

[Bicknellski]

Would they use these chips if they can get something more powerful same price or lower?

Of course not if it is cheaper and equally or more efficient. But if it is the same price they would probably still go with AM simply due to the fact that FC delivers.

Just asking? Would they want to make something that required all that aluminum? Even Marto isn't selling boards now with all his new designs... guess chips cost too much to make a profit compared to Bitmain offerings. Guess that small fabricator is going out of business as well.

Where exactly do you see "all that aluminum"? I just downloaded the cad files and it looks like it uses only 0.64 lbs of aluminum (excluding heatsinks).

Also it uses a single 120mm fan for cooling. I don't know if it gets better than that. Maybe a single 180mm fan would be better although there is a much better selection on 120-140mm fans.

Heat sinks and the volume they take up is the issue here not weight. That is valuable real estate in a DC and even in a small node at home. Why did AM build themselves a modern high density cooling solution?

They already built the future. This offering is not it.

This is what the industry wants, maybe this is not what the home user wants it, but this is how the game is going to be played:

[loshia]

Led Boy,
Just to remember you the thread is:
The Open Source Block Erupter Project. So if you ever build something apart of bilking leds you can do whatever you want. As you see AM wants to sell chips. AM is giving us the option to do two things:
1. Use his design and start from there he offered even assembly service
2. To build our own how we like it - chip docs and protocol spec PCB, bom and everything is available

So get back to work Led boy. If you do not like what AM is providing you here just design and build it. Is that the goal of your WASP balloon or what?
But WASP boards waiting list is so long and you are too busy posting noncecnce everywhere so it is not gonna happen soon. Correct?
If you wanna stay on topic just take a look at github there is a loot room for improvement especially the LED PART

[jimmothy]

Heat sinks and the volume they take up is the issue here not weight. That is valuable real estate in a DC and even in a small node at home. Why did AM build themselves a modern high density cooling solution?

They already built the future. This offering is not it.

This is what the industry wants, maybe this is not what the home user wants it, but this is how the game is going to be played:

Not sure I completely agree with that. Immersion cooling is definitely the future but it is quite a ways off before it becomes economically viable for most DCs let alone most homes.

I predict that a very efficiently deployed immersion setup would cost ~$150/kw. For those with cheap electricity, it would still make sense to go with air cooling. For example if you had an an efficient setup ($150/kw) and $0.05/kwh electricity you would be saving ~1/3rd on electricity so ~$0.016/kwh or about 1 year to break even.

You simply have to admit that for the average home miner and air cooled DCs with cheap electricity, this is quite an attractive machine.

Side note: I am 99% sure that AM has already made a high density immersion solution and I'm sure they will give it to anyone who asks (not positive about that last part)

[Bicknellski]

Heat sinks and the volume they take up is the issue here not weight. That is valuable real estate in a DC and even in a small node at home. Why did AM build themselves a modern high density cooling solution?

They already built the future. This offering is not it.

This is what the industry wants, maybe this is not what the home user wants it, but this is how the game is going to be played:

Not sure I completely agree with that. Immersion cooling is definitely the future but it is quite a ways off before it becomes economically viable for most DCs let alone most homes.

I predict that a very efficiently deployed immersion setup would cost ~$150/kw. For those with cheap electricity, it would still make sense to go with air cooling. For example if you had an an efficient setup ($150/kw) and $0.05/kwh electricity you would be saving ~1/3rd on electricity so ~$0.016/kwh or about 1 year to break even.

You simply have to admit that for the average home miner and air cooled DCs with cheap electricity, this is quite an attractive machine.

Side note: I am 99% sure that AM has already made a high density immersion solution and I'm sure they will give it to anyone who asks (not positive about that last part)

The average miner shouldn't be investing in mining given the numbers currently. Plenty of people have posted the numbers already I don't see how small scale is going to cut the mustard. These things are architecturally interesting but in terms of what is in the market already for air cooled it is on the wrong end of the curve price and design wise given the modularity data center air cooled versions already out. Density, density and density. If you have to stack 10 of these to get comparable hash rate from something a lot smaller I can't see the benefits no matter how pretty it looks. What I am talking about here is an alternative to this configuration. The cube is great style wise but again it is going to take up a lot of space where a flat plane configuration would be more ergonomic. Again it is a numbers game. If you can get the chips for pennies and the PCB's done up en masse sure ok... but that better be ready this month or next before the difficulty and other fabricators drop their offerings.

If it were profitable for Asicminer to build them they would.

[Jutarul]

The CAD of the mechanical design for X24 has been put in the repo:
...
Suggestions, modifications and brand new designs are all welcome.

In other words: The heatsink is the case.
Well thought out - should bring down deployment costs.

Regarding air vs. immersion cooling.
Immersion cooling is still a job for the professionals. If I understand the open source nature of the new block erupter correctly, the air-version is supposed to be a DYI kit for the little guys.

[antirack]

Speaking of immersion cooling, this thread wouldn't be complete without the design guidelines for the 240kW tanks:

https://docs.google.com/uc?export=download&id=0ByWHHc0u_thNdzB3c2hvVzJkcTQ

Here are some more files:
https://drive.google.com/a/allied-control.com/folderview?id=0ByWHHc0u_thNT293cTl6OXBVZms&usp=drivesdk#

Here some AM history:

[Bicknellski]

AM is not stopping their immersion development. So anyone building the cubes will be in direct competition with the DataTank boards likely with the BE300 chips or the next gen they might have on the drawing board after that. Gotta keep this in perspective if AM is going to produce 100s of PH/s worth of chips or more a significant amount is going into data tanks via that single wide or double wide immersion blade. Welcome to the end home miners.

And by the way... there is an air cooled version not unlike the spondoolies SP10 / SP30 configuration have a look in the link above. Enjoy your cubes. Not sure if you can get the chips on a board configuration that narrow given the power going through the copper for air cooling but I bet someone thinks you can do it and have an air / novec cooled boards in the same exact configuration.

[jimmothy]

The average miner shouldn't be investing in mining given the numbers currently.

I disagree. There are plenty of people with cheap electricity. You don't need a giant mine to make a profit. You simply need a good $/gh.

These things are architecturally interesting but in terms of what is in the market already for air cooled it is on the wrong end of the curve price and design wise given the modularity data center air cooled versions already out.

What on the market is more modular? Cubes are about as modular as it gets. Not to mention it can be disassembled in to blades.

If it were profitable for Asicminer to build them they would.

I also disagree. These are almost certainly profitable for AM to sell. Hashratios production cost is less than $0.8/gh for a much less cost effective miner (bulky case + extra fans and heatsinks).

I would guess AM could produce these for around $0.5/gh which is on par with spondoolies sp30 BOM.

At $0.5 or even $0.8 there is plenty of room for profit considering the market rate is ~$1.3-$2/gh.

Problem is this would take tons of capital AM doesn't have. And it would create a situation where AM is directly competing with its partners/customers.

I think it is better for AM to focus on providing the chips and let the chip integrators battle it out.

[Bicknellski]

Your estimations are based on what?

Given what numbers are available most smaller miners need to be moving out of Sha256. You can hope and dream these units will be cheap but no one is going to make them if they know it is going come back and bite them when they can't sell them at the price they need to. Given that there are only just a few of those those smaller board makers left who would target the remaining and ever dwindling small miner market I don't see them taking on this risk unless it is a Chinese based fabricator and even then doesn't look too promising.

If you got the numbers let us see it. Put up a spreadsheet and show us where these will make money for the fabricator and the miners. Please I would love to see your projections and do not forget to add all the costs in for the end users please. The numbers we have run do not look too promising even at greatly reduced price for BE200 or 300 chips.

[jimmothy]

Put up a spreadsheet and show us where these will make money for the fabricator and the miners. Please I would love to see your projections and do not forget to add all the costs in for the end users please.

Here is my ROI estimations (starts in 3 difficulty jumps)

http://btcinvest.net/en/bitcoin-mining-profit-calculator.php?diff=11756551917&dcosts=750&diff_mincrease=15&blpbtc=25&dhsmhs=750000&diff_mincreasedecrease=3&btcusd=650.80&dpowcon=750&btcusd_mincrease=1&pcost=0.05&calcweeks=32&dleadtime=3&action=calc

This assumes miners are being sold for $1/gh. With production costs at less than $0.8/gh there is clearly profit for the manufacturer.

Your estimations are based on what?

Given what numbers are available most smaller miners need to be moving out of Sha256. You can hope and dream these units will be cheap but no one is going to make them if they know it is going come back and bite them when they can't sell them at the price they need to. Just a few of those those smaller board makers who would target the remaining and every dwindling small miner market.

What are your estimations based on? What numbers are available? Where are small miners moving to from sha256?

I don't see a dwindling small miner market at all. Almost every manufacturer has a small miner for sale.

The numbers we have run do not look too promising even at greatly reduced price for BE200 or 300 chips.

I think you are also assuming that there is some next gen chips that will blow these miners out of the water which will likely not be the case for a few months (5-7 months I would guess).

[Bicknellski]

I am talking about PCB costs, chip costs etc... you can't throw out difficulty projections and estimates of final miner costs and think that is the spreadsheet I am thinking of right? You need to do some due diligence. Time labour etc... just to get this all set up. Where will you source parts? Which PCB fab? Etc. Fabbed where? Shipped where? PSUs? etc etc.

There has be a factor for profit you will need before jumping in on this. Look at the nightmares already out there. Who you gonna call? And I do mean this seriously? Who?

It is all well and good to project the rosy numbers but in reality there are fewer and fewer people willing to build this sort of thing because it just isn't worth the effort especially when there are currently working designs that will probably beat this design with the next chip generation in much more datacenter friendly configuration that uses the same chips. Again seems like a lot of aluminum.

There are already chips in design that will be out in August. I think your 5 - 7 month window is a bit myopic. Anyhow great you are big on the design. I hope it works out. I have serious reservations given the chip and the price of these units when you factor in everything. I will let you guys get back to working out who will fab out these designs up for you. Thanks for listening.

[jimmothy]

I am talking about PCB costs, chip costs etc... you can't throw out difficulty projections and estimates of final miner costs and think that is the spreadsheet I am thinking of right? You need to do some due diligence. Time labour etc... just to get this all set up. Where will you source parts? Which PCB fab? Etc. Fabbed where? Shipped where? PSUs? etc etc.

There has be a factor for profit you will need before jumping in on this. Look at the nightmares already out there. Who you gonna call? And I do mean this seriously? Who?

I don't have to worry about all that. Whoever want's to sell these can find a fab.

Hashratios production cost on their bulky miner is less than $0.8/gh. Those are some real numbers.

Spondoolies material costs alone are $0.5/gh for the sp30. Also some real numbers.

If hashratio would simply switch to this more cost effective design I would guess they could eventually get production costs down to ~$0.7/gh.

It is all well and good to project the rosy numbers but in reality there are fewer and fewer people willing to build this sort of thing because it just isn't worth the effort.

That's just your opinion.

Where are some numbers to back your opinion?

There are already chips in design that will be out in August. I think your 5 - 7 month window is a bit myopic. Anyhow great you are big on the design. I hope it works out. I have serious reservations given the chip and the price of these units when you factor in everything. I will let you guys get back to working out who will fab out these designs up for you. Thanks for listening.

Which chips do you speak of?

I think the biggest competition will be bitfury and bitmain and I don't think those chips are due for a while. Maybe avalon too if they stop the exorbitant chip pricing.

[Bicknellski]

I am talking about PCB costs, chip costs etc... you can't throw out difficulty projections and estimates of final miner costs and think that is the spreadsheet I am thinking of right? You need to do some due diligence. Time labour etc... just to get this all set up. Where will you source parts? Which PCB fab? Etc. Fabbed where? Shipped where? PSUs? etc etc.

There has be a factor for profit you will need before jumping in on this. Look at the nightmares already out there. Who you gonna call? And I do mean this seriously? Who?

I don't have to worry about all that. Whoever want's to sell these can find a fab.

Hashratios production cost on their bulky miner is less than $0.8/gh. Those are some real numbers.

Spondoolies material costs alone are $0.5/gh for the sp30. Also some real numbers.

If hashratio would simply switch to this more cost effective design I would guess they could eventually get production costs down to ~$0.7/gh.

It is all well and good to project the rosy numbers but in reality there are fewer and fewer people willing to build this sort of thing because it just isn't worth the effort.

That's just your opinion.

Where are some numbers to back your opinion?

Done our numbers and we are not building a cube.

Remember you are promoting this unit so the burden is on you to prove it not me. All I am saying is good luck nothing more or nothing less. Having a design doesn't mean it will be priced right. Lots of work needs to go into that if you want to make it profitable for the fabricator. That is where all your optimistic projections hit reality. What is the bottomline price. If it is too high then no one is going to buy it. Have a look around plenty of examples of that happening right now with very similar designs. Be careful and good luck.

[jimmothy]

Done our numbers and we are not building a cube.

Remember you are promoting this unit so the burden is on you to prove it not me. All I am saying is good luck nothing more or nothing less.

Let's see your numbers.

I don't need to prove anything as you are the one who is making such claims.

Anyone can tell that this miner would cost less to produce than hashratios $0.8/gh machines.

Have a look around plenty of examples of that happening right now with very similar designs. Be careful and good luck.

You mean like the rockminer rxbox which are being sold for around $1/gh?

[Bicknellski]

Done our numbers and we are not building a cube.

Remember you are promoting this unit so the burden is on you to prove it not me. All I am saying is good luck nothing more or nothing less.

Let's see your numbers.

I don't need to prove anything as you are the one who is making such claims.

Anyone can tell that this miner would cost less to produce than hashratios $0.8/gh machines.

Have a look around plenty of examples of that happening right now with very similar designs. Be careful and good luck.

You mean like the rockminer rxbox which are being sold for around $1/gh?

Join the WPC and you can see all the numbers you want. Not my numbers to give. Again you are trying to sell a fabricator on this not me. So sell it. If you can prove it is profit worthy someone will jump on it.