Bitcoin Targeted By Latest FinCEN Ruling? – Implications Are Profound

[RaggedMonk]

The world of international money transfer is MUCH bigger than Bitcoin.  I wouldn't be surprised if the people who made this ruling still haven't heard of Bitcoin. 

[hazek]

Wether or not it is specifically targeting MtGox or not, it definitely still pertains and applies to them.

Fortunately for MtGox, they have operating under this assumption since they began doing business.

Keep trying FinCEN.....

I would like to hear mtgox's statement on this compliance effort and their candid position on anti-money laundering.

Trust me when I tell you this. When FinCEN comes knocking, MtGox will be most prepared.

Riiight, well guess what, I'm not going to give mtgox my ID, my photo, or any other info about my identity. If it's mandatory to provide such personal details I will not use mtgox, PERIOD.

[kiba]

Riiight, well guess what, I'm not going to give mtgox my ID, my photo, or any other info about my identity. If it's mandatory to provide such personal details I will not use mtgox, PERIOD.

How do you get your bitcoin then? Selling goods and services?

[foggyb]

The world of international money transfer is MUCH bigger than Bitcoin.  I wouldn't be surprised if the people who made this ruling still haven't heard of Bitcoin.  

Maybe not, but I'm sure their bosses have.

Compartmentalization.

[Yankee (BitInstant)]

Wether or not it is specifically targeting MtGox or not, it definitely still pertains and applies to them.

Fortunately for MtGox, they have operating under this assumption since they began doing business.

Keep trying FinCEN.....

I would like to hear mtgox's statement on this compliance effort and their candid position on anti-money laundering.

Trust me when I tell you this. When FinCEN comes knocking, MtGox will be most prepared.

Riiight, well guess what, I'm not going to give mtgox my ID, my photo, or any other info about my identity. If it's mandatory to provide such personal details I will not use mtgox, PERIOD.

Of course, thats your choice and no one will blame you for it.

I'm merely trying to point out, that although we may think were above the law- were not. If I'm a libertarian, revolutionary, ect.. I still must work in the confides of the law and be compliant.

It basically narrows down to this.

MtGox or No MtGox...actually, let me rephrase

Bitcoin or No Bitcoin

If we want MtGox (Which I do) and other exchanges to operate legally, we must operate legally ourselves

[hazek]

Riiight, well guess what, I'm not going to give mtgox my ID, my photo, or any other info about my identity. If it's mandatory to provide such personal details I will not use mtgox, PERIOD.

How do you get your bitcoin then? Selling goods and services?

Not through mtgox, that's for sure.

[finway]

Wether or not it is specifically targeting MtGox or not, it definitely still pertains and applies to them.
Fortunately for MtGox, they have operating under this assumption since they began doing business.
Keep trying FinCEN.....

Glad to hear that.

[kiba]

I'm merely trying to point out, that although we may think were above the law- were not. If I'm a libertarian, revolutionary, ect.. I still must work in the confides of the law and be compliant.

That's the wrong word to use. How about this: unethical and overly intrusive.

It basically narrows down to this.

MtGox or No MtGox...actually, let me rephrase

Bitcoin or No Bitcoin

If we want MtGox (Which I do) and other exchanges to operate legally, we must operate legally ourselves

I agree. However, we should keep in mind that the laws are not always right.

I think the laws in question are wrong, but how to change this I do not know.

[evoorhees]

I guess there are no countries left on the planet where someone could operate an exchange outside of US laws?

One could operate such an exchange, so long as it didn't accept US customers. Interestingly, a law such as this will have (surprise surprise) unintended consequences - those consequences being that US residents will be excluded from overseas service providers, because their god damned government can't read its own founding documents.

[sunnankar]

I agree. However, we should keep in mind that the laws are not always right.

I think the laws in question are wrong, but how to change this I do not know.

The Civil Rights movement of the 1960's is a great example. It was not until the blacks started boycotting that real change got done. You have to starve the vampire squid. Everyone understands the pocketbook. Governments and banks around the world are scared to death that they will lose control of the medium of exchange in the Information Age.

As far as being in harmony with unjust laws that is a personal decision for each person to make based on a simple cost/benefit analysis. The Matrix gives a good example. Personally, I do not want any problems so I send them plenty of money.

I have quite a few friends from school who have worked or currently work for the IRS. Their work performance is based on amount of money collected and time it takes to collect it. They are encouraged to settle quickly. Many of my friends who were first audited and presented meticulous records have been left alone for the rest of their lives.

When you understand they operate pretty much like a business then you can better deal with them. Ironically, Congress does not fund them enough so they really have a lot more bark than bite. Sure, they can make your life miserable if you flagrantly disregard them but if you have made a good faith effort to pay what is legally owed then much of their power dissipates. So one course of action is to make it appear in the records that you have made a good faith effort to pay what is legally owed.

Also, greatly complicating the records (why do you think all these TIEAs and FACTA are being implemented) is fun also as that makes any type of an audit a real pain in their ass and if the expected collection is not very much then are they really going to push the issue with litigation; particularly if you are willing to settle and write a check?

[zer0]

Only applies to countries with extradition. Ukraine and Russia don't give a fuck about US laws, nor Brazil.
That's why you can cash out your $6k LR stash in Novosibirsk and the guy doesn't ask any questions because nobody there cares.

All exchangers outside CIS/non extradition countries already demand all sorts of ID and don't like working with American's since as long as I can remember.

[stochastic]

I wish I knew a way of changing the situation, but I don't know how.

Change your citizenship.

[Yankee (BitInstant)]

I'm merely trying to point out, that although we may think were above the law- were not. If I'm a libertarian, revolutionary, ect.. I still must work in the confides of the law and be compliant.

That's the wrong word to use. How about this: unethical and overly intrusive.

It basically narrows down to this.

MtGox or No MtGox...actually, let me rephrase

Bitcoin or No Bitcoin

If we want MtGox (Which I do) and other exchanges to operate legally, we must operate legally ourselves

I think the laws in question are wrong, but how to change this I do not know.

Your right, I 100% agree.

For example, there's an active bill now to repeal the Money Transmitter License law in New Hampshire that us and some Bitcoin business's are involved in

[farfiman]

I guess there are no countries left on the planet where someone could operate an exchange outside of US laws?

Space?

[vuce]

I guess there are no countries left on the planet where someone could operate an exchange outside of US laws?

Space?

Over here it's written in constitution you cannot be extradited while you're living inside the country. I guess that would count as something?

[hazek]

because their god damned government can't read its own founding documents.

You mean those 4 mere pieces of paper no one even signed. 

[bb113]

I agree. However, we should keep in mind that the laws are not always right.

I think the laws in question are wrong, but how to change this I do not know.

The Civil Rights movement of the 1960's is a great example. It was not until the blacks started boycotting that real change got done. You have to starve the vampire squid. Everyone understands the pocketbook. Governments and banks around the world are scared to death that they will lose control of the medium of exchange in the Information Age.

As far as being in harmony with unjust laws that is a personal decision for each person to make based on a simple cost/benefit analysis. The Matrix gives a good example. Personally, I do not want any problems so I send them plenty of money.

I have quite a few friends from school who have worked or currently work for the IRS. Their work performance is based on amount of money collected and time it takes to collect it. They are encouraged to settle quickly. Many of my friends who were first audited and presented meticulous records have been left alone for the rest of their lives.

When you understand they operate pretty much like a business then you can better deal with them. Ironically, Congress does not fund them enough so they really have a lot more bark than bite. Sure, they can make your life miserable if you flagrantly disregard them but if you have made a good faith effort to pay what is legally owed then much of their power dissipates. So one course of action is to make it appear in the records that you have made a good faith effort to pay what is legally owed.

Also, greatly complicating the records (why do you think all these TIEAs and FACTA are being implemented) is fun also as that makes any type of an audit a real pain in their ass and if the expected collection is not very much then are they really going to push the issue with litigation; particularly if you are willing to settle and write a check?

This reminds me how the church of scientology sued the government until the DoJ ran out of funds, then they cut a deal giving the CoS privileged tax status. Awhile back there was a thread about monocoinism vs polycoinism, perhaps these really are our religions.

I guess there are no countries left on the planet where someone could operate an exchange outside of US laws?

Space?

Seasteading?

[stochastic]

Only applies to countries with extradition. Ukraine and Russia don't give a fuck about US laws, nor Brazil.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transnistria

Venezuela has no extradition laws with America.  Maybe they also are lenient on the USD financial area too.

I always wondered if there was any service that allowed to make a web server in low earth orbit.

Does anyone know of a list of Tor hidden bitcoin financial services?

[Hunterbunter]

If anything, couldn't this help legitimize bitcoin and make it even more popular? The price is directly related to popularity. So if we want to be rich as early adopters, then don't we need to figure out ways to get as many people to need bitcoins for day to day as possible?

It may not be possible for bitcoins to be centrally managed (excluding exchange choke points), and if those are monitored for tax purposes, so be it - there will always be a large uncontrollable number in circulation, though, and while one payment out of the exchange can be known, what happens then (split to different keys) is anyone's guess.

If secrecy and tax evasion are the only things bitcoins have going for it then a lot of us are wasting our time here.

[stochastic]

If secrecy and tax evasion are the only things bitcoins have going for it then a lot of us are wasting our time here.

If bitcoin is just a copy of what we already have with fiat currencies then a lot of us are wasting our time here.