Thread about GPU-mining and Litecoin

[CoinHunter]

What is known is that the original thread claiming artforz and coblee were GPU mining was a FUD campaign.

What we are hearing now is that mtrlt is GPU mining and will not release code without compensation.
Why would CH want to let us all know this ? Why would CH tell us that the developer for their miner is taking advantage of other crypto currencies ?

Doesn't this show that taking advantage of people and open source projects is what they stand for ?

Or can they really believe that hurting others will highlight their coins "greatness" ?
I am a noob. I am not an expert. But thanks to this LTC fiasco, Solidcoin looks foolish, greedy and the farthest thing anyone would want from a OPEN currency.  

So someone making a faster miner has to release it or they are "Taking advantage" of a cryptocurrency? Sad news indeed if that's the case. THANK YOU for your reasoned comments and your definitive stance on "I'm never touching that SolidCoin because one of the developers made a faster miner for another coin *snicker*" . It's unbiased heroes like you that make the world a better place!  

How about people blame coblee or the litecoin supporters for not coughing up anything? I paid mtrlt to release his SolidCoin miner and he did. But the brokeback mountain Litecoin supporters are so cheap they would rather believe everyone in the world is delusional except them.

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[Vanderbleek]

Actually, I'd say that writing a faster miner and keeping it for your own use is adding to the security of the network, PROVIDED you are not using it to 51%. You're making it more expensive for people to attack the chain -- without the faster miner, people will have to purchase and run more hardware, or pay someone to develop software. Releasing it publicly puts everyone on equal footing, which is a hardware based level of security. If that was the case though, I don't know why anyone would post about it, unless you're simply trying to drum up drama.

[film2240]

Can someone send me the LTC GPU Miner via PM or on here please as I want to see some evidence and to test this myself.Thanks.I think it's not fair that a few people have the GPU miner while the rest are just CPU mining so to the person who does GPU mine is,either release the miner or do something else (I'm not sure what this is but thats for others to decide).

Is it or is it not possible to GPU mine LTC?

[film2240]

Can someone send me the LTC GPU Miner via PM or on here please as I want to see some evidence and to test this myself.Thanks.I think it's not fair that a few people have the GPU miner while the rest are just CPU mining so to the person who does GPU mine is,either release the miner or do something else (I'm not sure what this is but thats for others to decide).

Is it or is it not possible to GPU mine LTC?

No problem. You can obtain that Miner from mtrlt.
Just pay him 1 million $.

Sounds like his miner is a closely guarded secret then if he has the nerve to charge a $1 million for a mining app.I've never heard of 1 preson paying for a $1 million.Unless they're simply saying no chance of getting their miner instead (which I think is what they meant).

Also noticed that mtrit hangs about on Solidcoin talk as well: http://solidcointalk.org/user/374-mtrlt/
He created reaper miner and luuminer for Solidcoin mining, I just saw.

[Schwede65]

The machine makes 1.35 btc every day mining bitcoins.
And it makes 630 ltc every day mining litecoins. At the .0024 exchange rate, that comes out to be 1.51 btc.
So it makes about 10% more mining litecoins as oppose to bitcoins.

now only a few guys are ltc-gpu-mining and the 10/20%-profit depends on this private software...

it is only a snapshot of nice profit for only a few...

what will happen when this reaper13 is public?

one gpu-mining-circle of 2016 blocks may double the diff or just more...
then many will change the mined coins into btc, because btc-rigs would mine ltc with their power and most of them have to pay for electricity...

so the diff is up and the price is down...
what would happen to the ltc-gpu-miner?
they will quickly go back to btc-mining...

we have had similar settings with the dark pool(s) - botnets or private ltc-gpu-miner - who really knows...

additionally: ltc has a possible defense of a 51%-attack, when it should happen many gpu-miner who earn and like ltc would do ltc-gpu-mining in a defense-pool and the attacking dark pool can jump in the lake  

i think litecoin should not be afraid of a public reaper13...

yeah, reaper13, welcome to ltc  

[pla]

Those of you welcoming GPU mining for LTC/SC have kinda missed the point of why those currently hold the #2/#3 spot in the cryptocurrency world...

I have a decent gaming rig, which I can put to work GPU-mining BTC.  I have no need for more than one decent gaming rig, nor do I have even the faintest excuse to deck it out with quad 6990s.  I do, however, have access to somewhere around twenty i5/i7 cores, all sitting around doing nothing very useful 95% of the time.  I suspect, in that regard, I represent a fairly typical BitCoin enthusiast.

I became interested in mining a second cryptocurrency only because tennebrix (and then others) came up with a way to make CPU mining viable again... I figured, why not put the two or three decent machines I run at home, as well as a couple strays at my shop, onto a useful task instead of simply letting them sit around growing slowly more obsolete by the day?  I suspect I represent a fairly typical LTC/SC enthusiast, in that regard.

Put bluntly, if GPU mining becomes viable for LTC and/or SC, their entire raison d'etre vanishes.  We don't need to decide if we should react if mtrlt releases Reaper13 and it really does work 25x faster on GPUs; We need to decide how to react, and preferably have our changes ready to roll out on the very same day.  And while "do nothing" always counts as an option, in this case it counts as an option that effectively dooms this entire branch of BTC variants.

And yes, before anyone points out the various other problems with BitCoin that various spinoffs address, I understand this doesn't reduce solely to mining hardware issues; But really - It does, so far as most people care.

[tacotime]

If you want to believe me, then I can vouch for mtrlt's gpu miner being significantly more efficient than any current cpu miner for scrypt.

From what I know of the gpu miner, option 3 of modifying the scrypt parameter will have minimal impact. The pad size did not seem to matter much, and can be compressed for lack of a better word, with on the fly value reconstruction. So any increase in pad size will have a relatively equal impact on cpu miners until you exceed their cache size, at which point, gpus may become even more efficient.

I think you will be stuck with option 2, finding a completely different hashing algorithm.

Are you saying he has disproved the sequential memory hardness for the ROMix algorithm from the original scrypt paper?  I don't see why mtrlt couldn't supply us with at least some of the mathematics behind his algorithm.

If mtrlt has really completed this code, he could easily create an account on a pool with a random username and password, start mining, and have someone log on and verify that he's actually get 1M/s with four miners.  It's really at no loss to him, he would only need to mine for a few minutes for the hash rate to be apparent to the other person.  Why hasn't he done this?

[CoinHunter]

Those of you welcoming GPU mining for LTC/SC have kinda missed the point of why those currently hold the #2/#3 spot in the cryptocurrency world...

If you're going by market cap, its #1 Bitcoin <big gap> #2 SC <gap> #3 NMC, #4 LTC

Put bluntly, if GPU mining becomes viable for LTC and/or SC, their entire raison d'etre vanishes.  We don't need to decide if we should react if mtrlt releases Reaper13 and it really does work 25x faster on GPUs; We need to decide how to react, and preferably have our changes ready to roll out on the very same day.  And while "do nothing" always counts as an option, in this case it counts as an option that effectively dooms this entire branch of BTC variants.

Actually the SolidCoin hash was developed to be fairly equal in performance on GPUs and CPUs, watt for watt. It is currently delivering that and has been for some time (with a small favor to CPUs). SolidCoin takes all consumer hardware that is viable so we can let the widest range of people mine it fairly. Unlike Bitcoin which is going to be FPGA soon and Litecoin (which was supposed to be CPU only and is now a GPU coin), we want everyone to be able to mine.

[Bitinvestor]

Those of you welcoming GPU mining for LTC/SC have kinda missed the point of why those currently hold the #2/#3 spot in the cryptocurrency world...

I have a decent gaming rig, which I can put to work GPU-mining BTC.  I have no need for more than one decent gaming rig, nor do I have even the faintest excuse to deck it out with quad 6990s.  I do, however, have access to somewhere around twenty i5/i7 cores, all sitting around doing nothing very useful 95% of the time.  I suspect, in that regard, I represent a fairly typical BitCoin enthusiast.

I became interested in mining a second cryptocurrency only because tennebrix (and then others) came up with a way to make CPU mining viable again... I figured, why not put the two or three decent machines I run at home, as well as a couple strays at my shop, onto a useful task instead of simply letting them sit around growing slowly more obsolete by the day?  I suspect I represent a fairly typical LTC/SC enthusiast, in that regard.

Put bluntly, if GPU mining becomes viable for LTC and/or SC, their entire raison d'etre vanishes.  We don't need to decide if we should react if mtrlt releases Reaper13 and it really does work 25x faster on GPUs; We need to decide how to react, and preferably have our changes ready to roll out on the very same day.  And while "do nothing" always counts as an option, in this case it counts as an option that effectively dooms this entire branch of BTC variants.

And yes, before anyone points out the various other problems with BitCoin that various spinoffs address, I understand this doesn't reduce solely to mining hardware issues; But really - It does, so far as most people care.

I see. You don't care about Litecoin, you just want some free money from your old stuff, just like the botnets. If that's the only reason for Litecoin's existence then why would anybody buy litecoins? To feed you and the botnets?

A currency exists to facilitate the storage and transfer of wealth and litecoin is not fit for this purpose while half of it is mined by botnets. They could attack at any moment. Get rid of this silly botnet mining and make Litecoin a respectable currency.

[Syke]

SolidCoin takes all consumer hardware that is viable so we can let the widest range of people mine it fairly.

$7 in electricity (not even counting the hardware depreciation costs) to generate a coin that's worth $.04. That sure is a very twisted meaning of "fair". I see coinotron is up to 28 miners. That's nearly 60 total miners in the world mining SolidCoin!

[Schwede65]

Those of you welcoming GPU mining for LTC/SC have kinda missed the point of why those currently hold the #2/#3 spot in the cryptocurrency world...

haven't you realized, that sc is just cpu AND gpu-minable?

yeah, i mined sc2 with my cpu's, then the reaper came up and i mined with cpu AND gpu...

first the sc-gpu-mining was more profitable compared to btc, but this lasted not very long and i went back from sc-gpu-mining to btc-gpu-mining...

some "enthusiasts" stayed on to gpu-mine the unprofitable currency...
...others may call them "informed insider"  

atm sc-mining is totally wasting energy, if you have to pay for power...

whats your problem now with public ltc-gpu-mining?

the best paradigm - cpu- + gpu-mining - for ltc is sc...

atm its profitable to mine ltc with gpu's, but diff will go up quickly and the gpu-profit is away...

the problem i see is the efficiency:
sc: cpu is slightly more efficient then gpu
ltc: gpu is more efficient then cpu
factor 2:1 is realistic for mining-rigs, where you have to count only the extra-watt of cpu-ltc-mining in comparison to gpu-ltc-mining/complete rig

when many "ltc-gpu's" go back to btc, then there is a very high diff (respectively low price) and the cpu-mining is very unprofitable, we have seen this with tbx and fbx, nearly noone is mining them...

the conclusion is to switch to the sc2-algo or we find a better gpu-hostile-algo...

but how long will it last up to a talented programmer, who will find a way to gpu-mine the new algo more efficiently then cpu...

then we are back at the starting point...

[Schwede65]

I talked to Ahimoth about his specs. Here they are:

Hashspeeds:
LTC - 998kh/s (reaper)
BTC - 1624mh/s (cgminer)

Wattage (at the wall):
LTC - 920 watts average
BTC - 950 watts average

The machine makes 1.35 btc every day mining bitcoins.
And it makes 630 ltc every day mining litecoins. At the .0024 exchange rate, that comes out to be 1.51 btc.
So it makes about 10% more mining litecoins as oppose to bitcoins.

without energy-costs, because it differs so much - http://allchains.info/calc.html

LTC - 998kh/s // 920 watts: $4.354 (without energy-costs)
BTC - 1624mh/s // 950 watts: $4.874 (without energy-costs, but the more watt included, so: 1573 mh/s)

atm: btc-gpu-mining is 11.9 % more profitable then ltc-gpu-mining

[pla]

I see. You don't care about Litecoin, you just want some free money from your old stuff, just like the botnets. If that's the only reason for Litecoin's existence then why would anybody buy litecoins? To feed you and the botnets?

Not quite true - I would sincerely love to see a modern decentralized cryptocurrency make old-school notions of fiat currency like the dollar and euro completely obsolete.  I didn't join this community back when BTC had a value of $0.04 each (nor do I mine LTC, currently worth less than a US penny each) hoping to strike it rich.   

At worst, you could say that I believe in hedging my bets.  I won't buy $4000 in GPUs just to help seed a cyptocurrency, and if I make "some free money from your old stuff", hey, cool.

That said, we post in a community who already understands all of this (and still has legitimate disagreements - bordering on holy wars - on how it should all work).  But fiat currency or not, any "money" other than food, shelter, and sex, has no value except what a sufficiently large population agree it has.  We need to consider what the average Joe sees in this - And Joe has no reason to take an interest and play along if he can't join us without an unreasonable barrier to entry.

Bitcoin passed that barrier quite a few months ago, and today, "Joe" sees it as a subject of ridicule - "Oh, you mean that thing where the Russian mafia buys up all the ATI cards so they can launder their money?" (and don't even get me started on how many idiots haven't the faintest clue about the real meaning of a Ponzi scheme).  A CPU-only (or at least, GPU/ASIC unfriendly) BTC variant, I believe, has a lot of potential to let all the latecomer Joes try to get into the game again.

haven't you realized, that sc is just cpu AND gpu-minable?

Haven't you (all) realized that if you can do it for LTC, you can do it for SC?  Though different core algorithms, they use the same underlying assumptions about the cost of memory accesses to limit GPU performance - Which mtrlt may have proven false (we still have no proof of that).  I mentioned both LTC and SC in my post because I mean to refer to both.  Nothing short of a "hard" serial algorithm will prevent GPUs from doing it better than CPUs; that, however, would tend to break the whole idea of a distributed currency (if 200 people can mine independently more efficiently than one person with a bigger rig, then most likely so can 200 ALUs vs one full CPU).

I don't really have an answer to this, but I think we need to discuss it without disintegrating into "my chosen BTC variant works better than yours".

[Schwede65]

haven't you realized, that sc is just cpu AND gpu-minable?

Haven't you (all) realized that if you can do it for LTC, you can do it for SC?  

now (all) can realize your noob-status...

very interesting for furthermore postings  

[pla]

now (all) can realize your noob-status...
very interesting for furthermore postings  

I would take that personally, if you had actually understood what I said.  Let me know when you learn to code, and I'll try to act hurt over your opinion of me.

I have no favorite horse in this race.  You would do well not to mock me when I point out that yours has a broken leg.

[Syke]

LTC - 998kh/s // 920 watts: $4.354 (without energy-costs)
BTC - 1624mh/s // 950 watts: $4.874 (without energy-costs, but the more watt included, so: 1573 mh/s)

atm: btc-gpu-mining is 11.9 % more profitable then ltc-gpu-mining

I can't speak to LTC efficiency, but those BTC wattage figures are using a very inefficient Bitcoin GPU miner. A good GPU system can get about double that performance for the same wattage.

[Schwede65]

now (all) can realize your noob-status...
very interesting for furthermore postings  

I would take that personally, if you had actually understood what I said.  Let me know when you learn to code, and I'll try to act hurt over your opinion of me.

I have no favorite horse in this race.  You would do well not to mock me when I point out that yours has a broken leg.

yeah, now we are at a coder contest...

i think i'm in the wrong movie...

you can't see the wood for the trees...

thanks for this very interesting posting...

[Schwede65]

LTC - 998kh/s // 920 watts: $4.354 (without energy-costs)
BTC - 1624mh/s // 950 watts: $4.874 (without energy-costs, but the more watt included, so: 1573 mh/s)

atm: btc-gpu-mining is 11.9 % more profitable then ltc-gpu-mining

I can't speak to LTC efficiency, but those BTC wattage figures are using a very inefficient Bitcoin GPU miner. A good GPU system can get about double that performance for the same wattage.

we can't compare apples and oranges, on the more efficient rig, you will do the btc- and ltc-mining with lower watt, because of the higher productivity of the rig...

[Schwede65]

now we can test the truth of the ltc-gpu-mining:

http://solidcoin.info/reaper.html

it works with my 5850 on http://www.litecoinpool.org

congrats!

[drakahn]

Its not useful though, i can mine enough btc to buy 3-10 times the amount of ltc this thing could mine

its just silly