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Question: Are you willing to provide identification documents to us?  (Voting closed: February 18, 2012, 06:35:33 AM)
I'm willing to provide my identification to Bitcoinica. - 60 (42.3%)
I'm willing to provide to other Bitcoin businesses, but not Bitcoinica. - 8 (5.6%)
I'm not willing to provide my identification to any Bitcoin business. - 74 (52.1%)
Total Voters: 141

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Author Topic: What if Bitcoinica requires identification for all customers?  (Read 6365 times)
teflone
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February 17, 2012, 03:37:17 PM
 #21

Zhoutong, when you are fully compliant don't forget to embed the Paraipan Seal of Approval on Bitcoinica.



Your user base will skyrocket for sure.

New name should be Para-pain (in the ass)

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muyuu
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February 17, 2012, 04:35:50 PM
 #22

Are verified accounts required for anything at this point?

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February 17, 2012, 04:42:24 PM
 #23

Are verified accounts required for anything at this point?

No, but you can already get your account verified using our verification feature.

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February 17, 2012, 04:49:27 PM
 #24

Does this mean you would start sending out 1099's based on incomes made from each account?  Cheesy
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February 17, 2012, 04:51:59 PM
 #25

Are verified accounts required for anything at this point?

No, but you can already get your account verified using our verification feature.

Ok, thanks for your answer.

In the FAQ you still recommend TradeHill as an exchange. I suggest you update that...

Cheers

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February 17, 2012, 04:57:05 PM
 #26

Does this mean you would start sending out 1099's based on incomes made from each account?  Cheesy

No. We will not operate the business in the United States, nor will we respond to requests outside of our operating jurisdiction.

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February 17, 2012, 05:57:05 PM
 #27

What if this is only required before you deposit or withdraw fiat?

Here's how I see it:
  • If you're depositing or withdrawing fiat, that money has to go through a traditional clearinghouse, where you can be identified by "someone with a warrant" already.
  • If you're not depositing or withdrawing fiat (e.g. using bitcoins as maintenance for going long), then your use of Bitcoinica isn't in any way touching the money to which regulation applies, until and unless BTC's legal status switches to being considered currency itself.
So, folks who really want to deal anonymously would still be able to use Bitcoinica for those purposes that make sense, and maybe whatever legal requirements Zhou is sweating about would still be fulfilled?

Just an idea.

If there is something that will make Bitcoin succeed, it is growth of utility - greater quantity and variety of goods and services offered for BTC. If there is something that will make Bitcoin fail, it is the culture of naive fools and conmen, the former convinced that BTC is a magic box that will turn them into millionaires, and the latter arriving by the busload to devour them.
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February 17, 2012, 06:08:02 PM
 #28

What if this is only required before you deposit or withdraw fiat?

Here's how I see it:
  • If you're depositing or withdrawing fiat, that money has to go through a traditional clearinghouse, where you can be identified by "someone with a warrant" already.
  • If you're not depositing or withdrawing fiat (e.g. using bitcoins as maintenance for going long), then your use of Bitcoinica isn't in any way touching the money to which regulation applies, until and unless BTC's legal status switches to being considered currency itself.
So, folks who really want to deal anonymously would still be able to use Bitcoinica for those purposes that make sense, and maybe whatever legal requirements Zhou is sweating about would still be fulfilled?

Just an idea.

Good compromise, but I'm concerned that since they are still taking out USD loans to go long, or purchasing USD with BTC to go short the government will require identification.  Perhaps not, but I'm almost certain my government would.

https://www.bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf
While no idea is perfect, some ideas are useful.
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February 17, 2012, 06:16:11 PM
 #29

Good compromise, but I'm concerned that since they are still taking out USD loans to go long, or purchasing USD with BTC to go short the government will require identification.  Perhaps not, but I'm almost certain my government would.
It is a gray area. But gray is better than black, especially if you have a lawyer who thinks it's a light enough gray to be feasible in court (and presumably Bitcoinica is in consultation with its lawyers about whatever actual issue underlies this poll).

If there is something that will make Bitcoin succeed, it is growth of utility - greater quantity and variety of goods and services offered for BTC. If there is something that will make Bitcoin fail, it is the culture of naive fools and conmen, the former convinced that BTC is a magic box that will turn them into millionaires, and the latter arriving by the busload to devour them.
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February 17, 2012, 07:04:15 PM
 #30

Where will the business be operated ? Singapore ?

Will this registration as financial service provider resolve liquidity issues ?

I never tried bitcoinica because of liquidity issues, which is obviously a huge limitation. Without that, i would have for sure some money in it.
To me that's also actually good news. I'm ok giving personal info to have a quality, reliable service. I already do for broker accounts.

If some are not ok with that, i'm sure someone else will set up something for them.

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February 17, 2012, 07:10:34 PM
 #31

Why the hell is bitcoinica wanting more identification than mtgox does? I will certainly stop trading if its required for bitcoin deposits/withdraws. I have no plans to use USD within bitcoinica except to use my profits to buy more bitcoins. I work hard to be 100% anonymous online and prefer to keep it that way.

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February 17, 2012, 07:20:27 PM
 #32

- We will have a detailed Terms of Service and Privacy Policy before identification becomes an absolute requirement.

You also must implement exit addresses BEFORE identification becomes an absolute requirement.

For those who don't know, an exit address is a bitcoin address that the customer registers with an exchange when they sign up.  The address cannot be changed once the account is established.  At any time, and for any reason -- even if the account is "frozen" for any reason -- the customer can request total liquidation of their account and payment of all resulting funds to the exit address.  In order for this to be an "exit address", this liquidation ability must override any and all "account frozen" or "account pending review" or "we think your account was compromised" (this is why the exit address is unchangeable) or other nonsense statuses imposed on the account.

If Bitcoinica starts requiring identification without first committing to an exit address policy, I will immediately liquidate my positions and close my account.

The printing press heralded the end of the Dark Ages and made the Enlightenment possible, but it took another three centuries before any country managed to put freedom of the press beyond the reach of legislators.  So it may take a while before cryptocurrencies are free of the AML-NSA-KYC surveillance plague.
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February 17, 2012, 07:59:27 PM
 #33

Does this mean you would start sending out 1099's based on incomes made from each account?  Cheesy

No. We will not operate the business in the United States, nor will we respond to requests outside of our operating jurisdiction.

Good answer Zhou... but the US believes you are ALREADY in their jurisdiction, merely because US residents do business with you. As of two days ago, http://www.fincen.gov/statutes_regs/guidance/html/FIN-2012-A001.html

The problem with keeping the private records of your customers, is that WHEN the US demands your records, they'll have a treasure trove of information with which to harass people.

With that said, it's inevitable that some portion of the Bitcoin businesses will go the route of full legalization/licensing. I think, strategically, that is probably a net benefit, because it allows Bitcoin to grow and gain adoption. I'm okay with it, because I also know Bitcoin itself is inherently beyond the grasp of the state - and so the longer it's allowed to exist and grow, the better. If the government thinks it's regulating Bitcoin because it's managed to regulate most exchanges, then I'm okay with them having that delusion. It will keep them docile.
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February 17, 2012, 08:09:01 PM
 #34

Does this mean you would start sending out 1099's based on incomes made from each account?  Cheesy

No. We will not operate the business in the United States, nor will we respond to requests outside of our operating jurisdiction.

Good answer Zhou... but the US believes you are ALREADY in their jurisdiction, merely because US residents do business with you. As of two days ago, http://www.fincen.gov/statutes_regs/guidance/html/FIN-2012-A001.html

The problem with keeping the private records of your customers, is that WHEN the US demands your records, they'll have a treasure trove of information with which to harass people.

With that said, it's inevitable that some portion of the Bitcoin businesses will go the route of full legalization/licensing. I think, strategically, that is probably a net benefit, because it allows Bitcoin to grow and gain adoption. I'm okay with it, because I also know Bitcoin itself is inherently beyond the grasp of the state - and so the longer it's allowed to exist and grow, the better. If the government thinks it's regulating Bitcoin because it's managed to regulate most exchanges, then I'm okay with them having that delusion. It will keep them docile.

Agreed 100%

Just as with cash, the existence of fully licenced operators within the Bitcoin economy is in no way at odds with the anonymous nature of Bitcoin itself. You don't want to have a government find out how much is in your MtGox or Bitcoinica accounts? Don't own one. Or own one with a nominal amount of BTC, and keep the rest of your stash in a flash drive buried in the backyard.

Unlike cash, Bitcoin will not, in the long term, lose its value simply by existing. No one will be forced to keep a bank account in BTC just to ensure they don't lose their money. That being said, if a Swiss bank offered me a way to keep my BTC with them, either now or in the future, I might just decide to keep some there... because old habits die hard Smiley
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February 17, 2012, 08:43:48 PM
 #35


Unlike cash, Bitcoin will not, in the long term, lose its value simply by existing. No one will be forced to keep a bank account in BTC just to ensure they don't lose their money. That being said, if a Swiss bank offered me a way to keep my BTC with them, either now or in the future, I might just decide to keep some there... because old habits die hard Smiley
Just get yourself a safe in a Swiss bank and put your paper wallet in it. Fairly cheap (from 50 CHF per year)... No one can track that. Better than having an actual account in BTC since that could be affected by future data-exchange or taxation treaties / leaks / etc.

And yes, the US somehow believes it has jurisdiction over banks (and other entities) operating entirely outside of the USA, simply because it has US customers. A good example is Wegelin, being sued by the US despite having no branches or operations in the US itself.
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February 17, 2012, 10:26:02 PM
 #36

And yes, the US somehow believes it has jurisdiction over banks (and other entities) operating entirely outside of the USA, simply because it has US customers. A good example is Wegelin, being sued by the US despite having no branches or operations in the US itself.

The US government does not do this to harass foreign citizens.  They do this to keep their citizen sharecropping slaves in line.  Americans, no matter where they live, or where their money has made money are required to pay taxes on everything.  If I am a US citizen and if I lived in Singapore and made over 100873.26 SGD (Singaporean Dollar), then I would have to pay taxes on part of that income.  Even if I did not live or go to the United States for years, I would still be required to pay taxes.  I would have to report any of my income in USD or other currency stored in bank accounts (over $8,000).  If I tried to change my citizenship and renounce my American citizenship the United States federal government could investigate me and decide, without due-process, to make me pay taxes to the United States for 10 years after I give up my citizenship.

The American dollar is backed by the sweat of the American sharecropper slaves (its citizens).  If those sharecropper slaves found a way to circumvent the Federal Reserve System and keep more of their fair share than the Federal Reserve masters allow them to keep then America financial empire would collapse.

Maybe a good idea is to not use USD as the quote currency anymore.

Introducing constraints to the economy only serves to limit what can be economical.
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February 17, 2012, 11:21:13 PM
 #37

Maybe a good idea is to not use USD as the quote currency anymore.
EUR can be a option

i live in Europe and tell you EUR is not an option, ECB is pulling the strings

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February 18, 2012, 01:25:43 AM
 #38

British Pounds, surely  Cool

Or gold/silver oz.

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February 18, 2012, 01:32:17 AM
 #39

Or gold/silver oz.
I was thinking along these lines as well. If Bitcoins aren't yet legally thought of as currency, and gold is a commodity, then a Pecunix/BTC exchange may not actually qualify as an MSB...

If there is something that will make Bitcoin succeed, it is growth of utility - greater quantity and variety of goods and services offered for BTC. If there is something that will make Bitcoin fail, it is the culture of naive fools and conmen, the former convinced that BTC is a magic box that will turn them into millionaires, and the latter arriving by the busload to devour them.
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February 18, 2012, 03:50:48 AM
 #40

I dont like it, I would rather remain anon, but bitcoin will NEVER get out of the under ground unless we accept some regulations at least on the edges. Neweggs and amazons.coms will never take the coin until it is acceptable to banks and unfortunately, governments. hey it is kinda fun as it is and there are some limited markets and all but it will never be mainstream without developing trust in the exchanges and online banks, which means following accepted regulations.

And just remember, it was never designed for anonymity, it was designed to not be centrally managed.  If it even becomes somewhat useful, governments will pounce.  And look what they did to online poker. The governments used the banks to pretty much shut them down for us customers. They would do the same to BTC until it accepted regulations, like these.


i'll play either way. Besides it is useful as an underground currency as it is, even if it wasnt designed as such(though they are working on some issues that make it more underground friendly). Still the community needs to decide which direction they want to go, head in the underground way, keep anonymity but be doomed to it staying nitchy or if it gets large be prepared to be under attack, or do we want to head the legit route and be prepared to give up some things like anonymity on the exchanges.

mooo for rent
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